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Topic started on 18-3-2005 @ 09:18 PM by Nerdling
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I just wanted to talk a little about the Terri Schiavo case as she has now had her feeding tube removed.
This is an important moral crossroads for America hence the press coverage level. Both sides of the political and social divide have reached an
impasse that has caused them to think deep and hard about their arguments.
Human suffering in the case is personified with a delicate argument proposed by both sides. This is not faceless abortion or stem cell research, pain
has a voice and a face. Helpless as she is we can learn valuable lessons of morality from this case.
We see fundamentalists screaming for her to live, and remarkably we see some question whether she should live or not. Moral issues such as euthanasia
are not to be lightly discussed or trivialised for they represent the repeal of life itself.
I categorise myself as a liberal and all those cliches but I now see a little deeper into those who are very pro-life and I hope they can see into my
psyche just enough to see why I believe in choice and freeing someone from pain and suffering.
Its a difficult thing for me to make a decision on, I don't want someone to suffer in pain and remain in a vegetable state for their life but at the
same time I can't sanction euthanasia on such a paper thin case.
It's a turning point for America. She's educating all of us.
[edit on 18-3-2005 by Nerdling]
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 09:23 PM by MauiStacey
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I would not want to live in a vegetative state. This may be a blessing. I have shed tears for her and the plight of the family. However, if not for
modern medicine she would not be alive, bless her heart. But, who are they keeping her alive for, it's not for her, she is not aware. They are
keeping her alive for her parents.
I read the story of the lady who was worse than her and made a good recovery. The difference, she was only in a coma for a few weeks. Poor Terrie
has been in a coma for 15 years. She has only deteroriated. She will never ever be fully functioning. I feel awful for her, but in her condition I
feel it is more humane to let her pass on peacefully.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 09:42 PM by Nerdling
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The permanent brain damage resulted from a chemical imbalance after a heart attack I believe. I can respect the parents for wanting to keep her going
to see if she will recover but if she suffers then the humane thing to do is let her slip away with quiet dignity and her family around her. She is
conscious, able to see and recognise her family.
The husband is too suspect for my liking. A verbal contract that cedes her rights to him just isn't enough to force her death. If she had signed a
document or stated it on record it might be different.
Political moves are being made on this already, Republicans rotated talking points to assist in 2008's elections and the Democrats are keeping quiet
due to their pro-choice stand.
It seems everyone isn't looking close enough, she is the sum of an age old argument. Whilst we all pray for her recovery we know it won't happen.
I guess its just a matter of time.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 09:46 PM by MauiStacey
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you are a very sweet and thoughtfy young man. Bless your precious and caring heart.
You are what the world needs. A caring and kind soul.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 09:54 PM by Nerdling
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Thanks for that Maui!
Doctors say it could take up to a week for her to pass but nobody knows for sure.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 09:54 PM by Carseller4
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The issue is starvation.
If we refused to feed death-row inmates, it would be called cruel and unusual punishment.
MauiStacy said "However, if not for modern medicine she would not be alive," since when is a feeding tude modern medicine?
The "chemical imbalance" deal is speculation, never been proven. The same injury could have been caused by blunt trama, or even suffocation.
Once again the issue is starvation, plain and simple.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:02 PM by MauiStacey
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where in history before our time has one been kept alive through artificial means? It's called survival of the fittest, she would not survive.
Don't get me wrong, I feel for her, have said prayers and shed tears. But, she is on her way home to the Creator and what could be better than
that.
We all need to say prayers that she mets a painless end.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:06 PM by QuietRenegade
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Originally posted by Nerdling
The permanent brain damage resulted from a chemical imbalance after a heart attack I believe. I can respect the parents for wanting to keep her going
to see if she will recover but if she suffers then the humane thing to do is let her slip away with quiet dignity and her family around her. She is
conscious, able to see and recognise her family.
The husband is too suspect for my liking. A verbal contract that cedes her rights to him just isn't enough to force her death. If she had signed a
document or stated it on record it might be different.
Political moves are being made on this already, Republicans rotated talking points to assist in 2008's elections and the Democrats are keeping quiet
due to their pro-choice stand.
It seems everyone isn't looking close enough, she is the sum of an age old argument. Whilst we all pray for her recovery we know it won't happen.
I guess its just a matter of time.
Nerdling, You hit the nail right on the head about the husband. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he has remarried and now has two children doesn't he?
Then why is he still pushing for the tube to be removed, is it because he had something to do with the heart attack and is afraid that if Terri starts
to recover she may say something to implicate him? 
I can understand that if she was comatose and if removed from a machine she would die within minutes, but they're talking about weeks before death.
That is unacceptable. She should be allowed to live. What's really disturbing is I find myself supporting Tom Delay in this matter!
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:09 PM by dgtempe
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My reputation precedes me. I'm the ultra Liberal. In this case, I'm not. I'm only thinking about whats happening and Terry.
There are numerous accounts of people in worse shape than Terry who have bounced back- yes, bounced back and led productive lives. In a coma(which
Terry was not in) for years, and they recovered after years.
This is the saddest thing i've seen. I can only hope there will be a miracle and this will be reversed.
Has anyone asked Terry if she wants to live? I think i would feel a lot better if i knew what her answer would be. She does communicate by
blinking.
Sad.
Thanks for your words, Nerdling. 
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:09 PM by Carseller4
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Originally posted by MauiStacey
where in history before our time has one been kept alive through artificial means? It's called survival of the fittest, she would not survive.
Don't get me wrong, I feel for her, have said prayers and shed tears. But, she is on her way home to the Creator and what could be better than
that.
We all need to say prayers that she mets a painless end.
She has been sentenced to die by starvation, even though she has committed no crime.
Survival of the fittest, sounds like something out of the animal kingdom, or Nazi Germany. Here in the civilized world, we take care of our own.
Terri has parents willing and able to do just that.
Death-row inmates are not given sentences of "starvation". Even though it wouldn't be a bad idea. There is a little thing called "cruel and
unusual punishment". If would be more humane to give her a lethal injection, than to allow her to starve to death.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:14 PM by MauiStacey
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I agree 100% . She shouldText starve and a lethal injection would be more humane. The enitire case is an outrage.
So, lets say, they allow a lethal injection. Then Dr. Kervorkain was right all along.
Terri is a precious soul. I hope humanity learns a lessom for her sad plight and I'm sure her husband needs to be implicated and punished. In the
mean time, I'm sure she would love to return to heaven instead of being bound to her hopless body.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:16 PM by negativenihil
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Originally posted by Carseller4
The issue is starvation.
If we refused to feed death-row inmates, it would be called cruel and unusual punishment.
Exactly!!!!
Who decided the best way for her to die was to starve her?!
If she must die, can we not give her a less painful way to go?!
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:18 PM by boogyman
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We've lost sight of the details of this case and are letting our emotions get in the way of things. When was the last time we heard the opinion of a
medical expert on the condition of this woman. All I have to go on is the opinion of the courts and that leads me to believe that the woman has no
hope of recovery and is essentially dead. On the other hand I keep on hearing how the woman is communicative and alive in her actions but if there was
evidence to back this up why have the courts ignored this evidence? I dont know what to believe.
I am inclined to agree with the husband though. I dont know about you people but the thought of being trapped in my body with no means of reaching the
outside world our moving is horifying to me. I would go mad after a year let alone ten. You cant even say whether your too hot or cold or this is
itching me or this tv show sucks can you change the channel or even would you people please shutup and leave me alone.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:19 PM by MauiStacey
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Not after 15 long years DG, her body and mind had athorpied beyond repair. It may be true in patients months to a year, but not 15 years later. They
never offered her precious soul rehad, only treatment...ie feeding tubes.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:21 PM by Bleys
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Originally posted by Nerdling
A verbal contract that cedes her rights to him just isn't enough to force her death. If she had signed a document or stated it on record it might be
different.
It is this fact alone that bothers me most about this whole Shiavo mess - how did this man ever get permission to terminate his wife's life without a
living will or written declaration. I just assumed that those States progressive enough to allow people the right to die with dignity would require
such documentation.
I hate that this case is going to be the "face" of euthanasia. It is not representative of euthanasia debate - but it will be the poster child for
many years to come.
B.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:24 PM by dgtempe
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:26 PM by worldwatcher
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thought this might be a good addition
Death Process From Withdrawal of Artificial Nutrition and Hydration
The general process of death for patients whose food and hydration tubes are withdrawn:
-Day One: The percutaneous endoscopic gastrotomy tube, which is placed through the skin and into the stomach, is removed in a simple surgical
procedure. Patients who do not have mental cognition to have a sense of thirst or hunger will not be uncomfortable.
- Days Three to Four: Urine output decreases and patients begin to lose normal body secretions. The mouth begins to look dry and the eyes appear
sunken. Patients will look thinner because the body tissues have lost fluid. Their heart rate gradually goes up and their blood pressure goes down. In
some patients, dehydration releases endorphins in the brain that create a state of euphoria.
- Days Five to 10: People who are alert have a marked decrease in their alertness. Respiration becomes irregular with periods of very fast and then
very slow breathing. Some patients will become restless, while others will be less active. For patients in a persistent vegetative state, there may be
no discernible change in their movements.
- Days 10 to Death: Patients do not appear to respond to their environment at all and may appear to be in a coma. Length of death process is
determined by how well-nourished patient was and how much body fat and fluid they had when procedure began. May be outward signs of dehydration, such
as extremely dry skin. Kidney function declines and toxins begin accumulating in the body. Toxins cause respiratory muscles to fail. Multiple organ
systems begin to fail from lack of nutrition.
I mentioned this in several threads regarding Schiavo already, but I really think they ought to let this lady go. Remember the body is only a vehicle
transporting the soul, this body is gone, why keep whatever is left of Terri's brain tied here?
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:29 PM by dgtempe
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They forgot to mention the excrutiating pain she will suffer. Horrible physical pain- not made up by me, but as stated by the woman in the link above
and as stated by physicians.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 10:33 PM by Nerdling
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I'm no expert on this so don't quote me...
But I think that --by law-- she cannot be given lethal injection as that is tantamount to execution.
The removal of feeding tube is like turning off life support and is moderately within his rights.
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reply posted on 18-3-2005 @ 11:18 PM by Nerdling
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That break down is very distressing WW. I hope she passes sooner than later if it is to be her fate. 
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