OP/ED: Dark Days. (The black band on ATS)

Ok, SO, this thread has gone long enough, I am going to ask one question,

What does the overloard wants from us, the members of this site?

What do you expect from the older members to do, so the new ones do not make the mistake we have made.

[edit on 17-3-2005 by marg6043]

Okay , I will give you the fact that the outside world has bled in and effected this BS free zone. However is it bad enough that one would go as far as that.
I have seen a lot of left vs right and often I try to stay in the middle.
While passionate about my views , I am willing to conceid from time to time and in turn I formulate new views containing the new information. Now I am not the only one that does this ..... I know many who do this. You know I also find the younger generation , older generation is more of a issue. We the elders of society have forgotten patients , and this spires most of our issues.

We elders have been there and done that, however we don't understand the nieve , sometimes developing nature of our younger family members. Alot of our biggest , left vs right you will find lies in this relm. We expect that when a member joins this site they are already in tune with the concenses, how can they be. We have all come here to teach and learn .....then why do we forget the younger must learn more than us?

I think the root of problems is human nature in design , developmently we are all differnt , lets all remember that ok.

Why should the thread be closed? Until the horse has been broken down into it's subatomic particles I say keep flogging.

From my calculations I have concluded that ATS will only increase in it's noise quotient (NQ). All manner of action used towards bringing the NQ down will only increase it (ex. this thread).

Energy follows the path of least resistance. It's far easier to spout off opinions and go around in circles than research. Research requires work. For the few that still do the deep level research be prepared for unending attacks from the lazy zombies. They usually post a sentence or two that's so completely illogical it produces an automatic emotional response in others that can't imagine such illogical comments. There are some that post longer illogical diatribes. I usually notice these folks just keep repeating themselves over and over. Present new evidence and they will keep repeating the same thing seemingly ignoring the actual content of what was just posted. There are many other examples of different types of thread attacks that undermine any decent discussions. After awhile, people stop posting the good stuff because it almost always ends in some non-sequitor filled debate that has little to do with the topic.

It's not going to stop. It's only going to get worse. And I'm not being negative. There are very few people (compared to the majority) that want a civil debate on conspiracy topics. And their voices are being drowned out more and more each day. Why are they here? To reassure themselves that the they aren't the only ones with vested interest in the lies that permeate our society. How many people (seriously) are willing to deal with the implications of alien disclosure? Any lie that any government admits to could tear apart the fabric of society. And it's obvious that society doesn't want that. So even in the face of overwhelming facts the majority of people will fight to the death to defend the system that sustains them.

They come because they are bored. They come because they read a thread that produced an emotional response and they got hooked. They do not come for the truth. The zombies are only looking for their next emotional meal. These emotions feed the ego. Facts do not feed the ego. Well thought out posts with interlocking puzzle pieces that get close to the truth do not feed the ego. The ego must be fed or it dies. And when it dies the real person behind the ego is there, naked, for the world to see. That's way too much for most people to handle. The ego feels safe. But it must be fed off the ill feelings of others in order to survive. So you get a never ending circle of ill feelings and illogical blather meant to protect the ego at all costs.

I think the horse is down to the molecular level. I'm out of energy. Anyone wanna take it up from here?

I must disagree. Human's are far more than the sum of their parts. They do not mimic the forces of nature, in fact quite often avoid what is natural. It isn't helpful, and in my opinion, wrong, to list a number of reasons why there will always be trouble and problems and why it will only get worse. As SO tried to say, it doesn't have to be that way. We're here to try and figure out why, and what the alternatives are. Once you kill the horse, you've got a dead horse. To continue further is simply a waste of time, energy, and makes a huge mess.

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer
I must disagree. Human's are far more than the sum of their parts.

Until the "far more" is actually shown in real life then it doesn't exist to others. It doesn't matter if humans are actually light beings having an in body experience. Until individual responsibility is taken, this is what we get.

They do not mimic the forces of nature, in fact quite often avoid what is natural.

When you go through life on autopilot you are at the will of outside forces. If artificial forces outweigh natural ones then that will be the path of least resistance.

It isn't helpful, and in my opinion, wrong, to list a number of reasons why there will always be trouble and problems and why it will only get worse.

Did I break some moral code? Reality doesn't care. Things are as they are. Polarization is not going away. The observations I made have nothing to do with how anyone feels or anyone's opinion. I simply made predictions based on observation. I also took into account the world at large and the current agendas being played out on the world community.

As SO tried to say, it doesn't have to be that way.

Nothing has to be the way it is. Humans created the human condition through choice. The way things are now is by choice. People engage in left/right political debate because they want to. And I presented psychological reasons why. That's why I say it won't change. The hardest ideal to change is one based in emotion.

We're here to try and figure out why, and what the alternatives are.

It's already been stated there are no alternatives. We can add things like Soficrow pointed out. We could do my OTS idea. But ATS is what it is because that's what people have chosen it to be.

Once you kill the horse, you've got a dead horse. To continue further is simply a waste of time, energy, and makes a huge mess.

You are saying that as though I didn't know it. Why do you think I started and ended my post with talking about the dead horse?

You just wasted time and energy responding to me. I waste all kinds of time and energy responding on this board. We all do. And yes, it's a big mess. But I like it. I'm still here. And I will keep posting. And in 6 months come look me up and we'll see if I'm right about the NQ getting worse.

It's my perspective only, based on a lot of observation. I may be wrong. I have nothing vested in being right so it doesn't matter to me. But remember the old rule, a body in motion tends to stay in motion (in the direction it was going).

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
The whole point of our government, IMHO, is to confuse and alienate so that we are divided. A divided populace can be easily manuipulated and controlled.
We're so busy with our agendas that we forget the common good.

FWIW

Ok, this is where i differ from what you guys are saying.... Why does it have to be the government the one wanting to confuse and alienate people so we are divided?....

There has always been divisions throughout the history of mankind, and the US government was not there for most of that time....

People tend to take one side, and they form their ideas according to what they think is happening whether or not is true. You see this division was created by the government, I see this division existing because people have different ideas, not because of the government.

There is a division in people in the whole world, not because of the US government, but because of different ideas people have. I have seen in these forums that the majority of the people agree and accept that it is all the govenrment's fault. All sorts of links and articles are provided to show this, it doesn't really matter if quite a few of those points are being exagerated and even proven to be wrong, in the end presenting any proof that is all the government's fault is the main goal of quite a few people.

But you know what i haven't seen, which in itself it is a conspiracy but most members do not accept, it is that the ideas of Marxism have taken a hold of much of the US and is being passed off as being "liberal".

Not too long ago there was a news coverage about what is happening in many of our Universities with liberal professors indoctrinating people into the ideas of Marxism, you might say, "bah it is just another government lie..." but i have been in college and I have been a first hand witness of what is happening to our educational system.

In that same report several students were interviewed and everyone of them said they were being biased against because of their conservative ideas and for "making pro-democratic" essays, arguments and reports for the schools. One of those students interviewed was a Russian woman who had been a teacher in the former Soviet Union, and she herself stated that the same ideals that were being indotrinated into schools in the former communist country are being taugh in the US...and it is not the US government doing this....

I haven't neither seen any evidence presented that most of these same schools were even providing more funds for Kerry than for president Bush.

Evidence of the atypical uniformity of American universities grows by the week. The Centre for Responsive Politics notes that this year two universities—the University of California and Harvard—occupied first and second place in the list of donations to the Kerry campaign by employee groups, ahead of Time Warner, Goldman Sachs, Microsoft et al. Employees at both universities gave 19 times as much to John Kerry as to George Bush. Meanwhile, a new national survey of more than 1,000 academics by Daniel Klein, of Santa Clara University, shows that Democrats outnumber Republicans by at least seven to one in the humanities and social sciences. And things are likely to get less balanced, because younger professors are more liberal. For instance, at Berkeley and Stanford, where Democrats overall outnumber Republicans by a mere nine to one, the ratio rises above 30 to one among assistant and associate professors.

Excerpted from.
www.economist.com...


I have seen ATSNN become a venue where only what liberals say is being "accepted as the only truth." I do not have the time anymore I used to have to respond to threads like I used to, or to even provide as many submissions as i once did, and to tell you the truth most of the time i don't even feel like it because i prefer spending my time doing something I am going to have fun doing, such as watching "Whose line is it anyways" than starting or responding a thread that is only going to become another bickering contest between members.

Yes there is a division not only in the US but in the world...there has always been a division, but as i have been able to witness most members say in these same forums, it is all the US govenrment's fault according to them....



[edit on 17-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Nice thread.

More is good too.

Not really into music!

Originally posted by Muaddib
Ok, this is where i differ from what you guys are saying.... Why does it have to be the government the one wanting to confuse and alienate people so we are divided?....

There has always been divisions throughout the history of mankind, and the US government was not there for most of that time....

I think it has more to do with the dynamics of this difference. It is not about just being different, it's about the duality of issues. It's about stereotyping. And despite statements, such as "You're either with us or against us," it is ultimately the people's choice of how they want to act.

Originally posted by Muaddib
I have seen ATSNN become a venue where only what liberals say is being "accepted as the only truth."

And what exactly is a liberal?

[edit on 17-3-2005 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
Until the "far more" is actually shown in real life then it doesn't exist to others.

I rather feel it has been. By history. By the fact we think. But that's beside the point.

When you go through life on autopilot you are at the will of outside forces. If artificial forces outweigh natural ones then that will be the path of least resistance.

You just wasted time and energy responding to me. I waste all kinds of time and energy responding on this board. We all do.

thanks.

When was the last time your inertial mass exerted a force on itself, and did work to overcome the other forces exerted on it? When was the last time the mass created a government for the people, by the people? Humans are more than just objects, more than a physics problem.

I think what you said about choice was fantastic. The entirety of existance as we pretty much know it is derived from choice, which is why we CANNOT and do not behave simply like massive objects. That choice can be a terrible thing for some, a huge fear, and something they'd rather turn over to the masses. But for others, it can be a powerful tool, striking fear in those who would seek to eliminate thought. I prefer the latter.

At least one person is opening up in this thread. Look at the post on top of the page. Most of you don't get it.

Originally posted by marg6043
What do you expect from the older members to do, so the new ones do not make the mistake we have made.

Why not consider gathering up a few senior members for an ongoing research project to collect materials that demonstrate the strategies in play to create and perpetuated the fanatical divide.

The project might also look back into history and pinpoint when it appears the strategy begun (I tend to think it started in earnest after the Nixon presidency).

Originally posted by TheBandit795
At least one person is opening up in this thread. Look at the post on top of the page. Most of you don't get it.

Are you referring to the "what is expected of us" question or the mea culpa?

If something is expected of us other than quality posting then please spell it out.

If quality posting is what is expected then therein lies the problem. It's a waste of time when threads devolve the way they do. So until something can be done about a certain type of un-enlightened cretin that frequents this board and is a member of society (and thus free to sign up and begin posting whatever garbage is rotting in a closed mind) then the problem will not resolve.

If SO is looking for a mea culpa... I'm not sure what I specifically would be appologising for unless it was pointed out to me.
.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by marg6043
What do you expect from the older members to do, so the new ones do not make the mistake we have made.

Why not consider gathering up a few senior members for an ongoing research project to collect materials that demonstrate the strategies in play to create and perpetuated the fanatical divide.

The project might also look back into history and pinpoint when it appears the strategy begun (I tend to think it started in earnest after the Nixon presidency).

I'm in. Am I a senior member? ...5 months.

Who else is up for this? We have loads of good people here - and room for everyone. ...Looks like a BIG project.


.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
................

And what exactly is a liberal?

[edit on 17-3-2005 by Jamuhn]

Well, since you have been in these forums long enough my guess is that you know what a liberal is, what i wonder is exactly what kind of response you are expecting. This is not the first time you make a question like this one.

Anyways, many people have different opinions on what being a liberal is. I do believe that the main definition of liberal has changed over the years.

A person who is liberal to me these days means that they lean towards the left and are more open to such ideas as expressed in Marxism, many if not most liberals are against capitalism and even against the US government for what i have seen in these forums. Liberals are also pro-abortion, and in general prefer if there weren't so many laws, such as laws against drugs etc.

ATS admin will make the site what they want to be or the users will make the site. It's quite simple. If you don't want polarized political bickering, then find it and dump over to so-called PTS. If you want take the hands off approach and expect better from the human race, then don't do anything. The same people that buy stuff on Amazon.com, post on yahoo forums and read cnn.com are the same people that go to ATS, so why expect a difference unless you force it? I don't know why you'd expect "any better" from ats members when we're all just people on the internet.

In all things of your control, if you want change, you must make it, not others.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Why not consider gathering up a few senior members for an ongoing research project to collect materials that demonstrate the strategies in play to create and perpetuated the fanatical divide.

The project might also look back into history and pinpoint when it appears the strategy begun (I tend to think it started in earnest after the Nixon presidency).

Skeptic, that is a good idea, although I do not know exactly how it would help in solving the problem which we all know exists.

Also a good idea would be if actually nothing is left out in this research, and i mean nothing at all, not just looking for what most members believe is the truth, but actually looking for information from every angle without a preconcieved idea of what they will find. You think that would be possible? It would be great if it was.

Originally posted by Muaddib
A person who is liberal to me these days means that they lean towards the left and are more open to such ideas as expressed in Marxism, many if not most liberals are against capitalism and even against the US government for what i have seen in these forums. Liberals are also pro-abortion, and in general prefer if there weren't so many laws, such as laws against drugs etc.

See, to me this definition is contradictory and very noncoherent. A natural economic system is capitalism, so how could liberals be against so many laws? As well, I thought conservatives were for less federal laws, and giving power to states. And what does "being against the US government" mean? Does this mean disagreeing with some of what the government says? After all, if you trying to equate liberalism with democrats, then we see that the democrats and republicans overlap on many issues. Not only this, but would liberals disagree with democrats?

All-in-all, the most clear thing you have said in your definition is "against abortion."

Not only this, but the other parts of your definition contradict the standard definition of "liberalism."

As well, I think your assertion about your version of liberalism being regarded as fact all across ATSNN is largely untrue and baseless.

My point though is not to show the faults in your definition, but to show that merely throwing around the term "liberal" does nothing. All it attempts to do is put some kind of abstract label on people that doesn't really mean anything. If you just stated what specific things are regarded as true all across ATSNN, I might have not said anything.

[edit on 17-3-2005 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
Until the "far more" is actually shown in real life then it doesn't exist to others.

I rather feel it has been. By history. By the fact we think. But that's beside the point.

While I agree with you I'm speaking about "far more" personal responsibility. People tend to get behind things. Safety in numbers kinda thing. This can lead to great things or great tragedies and sometimes both simultaneously. It's the few that make the great decisions. The masses just follow.

thanks.

When was the last time your inertial mass exerted a force on itself, and did work to overcome the other forces exerted on it?

When was the last time the mass created a government for the people, by the people? Humans are more than just objects, more than a physics problem.

Until humans can take personal resposibility and not just be lemmings, dodo birds, sheep, zombies, automatons and cattle they can be reduced to mathamatical probabilities. Humans are governed by laws and their environment. If anything changes you just change the variable.

This was a hard one for me to grok so I may fail miserably at explaining it. All actions I take are within a predetermined set. Let's say I want to start a business. Seems like a pretty autonomous thing to do right? But I would not be doing it if there weren't already businesses to start. I use a toilet because it is there. I post on ATS due to some reaction to something that has happened. The language I'm using is not my own. Even the body is not really mine. It dies. I'm completely surrounded by a set of laws and an environment that I didn't create. It is a predetermined array. I can only work within these confines. Certainly, many great people have reworked the laws and environment to bring about different outcomes. But they too worked within the predetermined set.

I think what you said about choice was fantastic. The entirety of existance as we pretty much know it is derived from choice, which is why we CANNOT and do not behave simply like massive objects. That choice can be a terrible thing for some, a huge fear, and something they'd rather turn over to the masses. But for others, it can be a powerful tool, striking fear in those who would seek to eliminate thought. I prefer the latter.

If you prefer choice over default programmed thinking then I'm not talking about you. That is if realize that your choices are predetermined. I still have to follow along with the general movements of humanity in order to survive. But I realize the choices are predetermined. Knowing this I look for choices that aren't being shown.

You have the choice of left or right. It seems the majority of people in the U.S. will agree to choose from these two choices. They may or may not believe these are the only two choices but if they don't they sure do act like it.

I could go on and on with a bunch o crap because my mind doesn't shut up. But I think the horse is long gone and we may be speaking on different levels.



[edit on 3-17-2005 by ShadowHasNoSource]

Originally posted by soficrow
Who else is up for this?

I'll be more than happy to lend a hand....

Now that we finally have some direction, I'll be glad to offer my skills in any way to better our community...

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun

Originally posted by soficrow
Who else is up for this?

I'll be more than happy to lend a hand....

Now that we finally have some direction, I'll be glad to offer my skills in any way to better our community...

Cool.

...I'll start a sign up sheet on "Political Conspiracies" - call it "Polarization Research Project" for now - and we can bank ideas, categories, etc there too, just to get things rolling.

.