Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun
The truth of the matter is, a lot of this same material was covered on earlier pages...SpittinCobra and I practically said the exact same words....but it was only picked up on now b/c when I made my post earlier, there were far too many people arguing to take the time to read what anyone else has said...

Im sorry that I didnt read your post, most threads I try to respond to the aurthor, so I can have a clear head when I respond, so my response is true and and not moved by anyone else.




[edit on 17-3-2005 by SpittinCobra]

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
Im sorry, if I didnt read your post, most threads I try to respond to the aurthor, so I can have a clear head when I respond, so my response is true and and not moved by anyone else.

No man....I'm not blaming you or anyone...

Thus is the magnitude of this website.....Hell....This thread....

Originally posted by 00PS
Deny Ignorance is a laugh because 80% + of the posts are based on IGNORANCE

I second that.

Anyway, yeah, I also think this thread should end. it's apparent no change is coming any time soon and I think all that can be said has been said.

Here's to this post being the last...

I will never lose faith on my fellow Americans, how can showing the wrong doings that have been done to our great nation as proven facts are to become control, because some will never open their eyes to see both sides? that is what make us humans.

I have learned so far in ATS in one year that denying ignorance is not what many wants, so what?

I have learned also that is not such a think as non bias commentaries we all have our own ways of seen things and we kind of stick with it not matter what all we can be is polite to each other, or at least try.

Even the most open minded will fall pray to their believes as been the right ones.

But I still believe that this site is the best so far in the INTERNET to express our concerns about the world and our nation, to explore different views and to bring new ideas.

We have some very good informative threads that we all should be proud of it, we have become a in a way like a library of information.

So if we have some political bickering, so what?

The quality of this site is still good and getting better, but how good this site has to become to start getting the unwanted attention of those out there that their sole purpose is to target places like this to destroy credibility.

We are a family in here and so far the job of keeping that type of groups or people and identifying them has been a successful job done by the administration.

The only dark days I see are the ones if these site becomes to politicaly correct for anybody to post anymore.

Please what ever you are doing right now is working and after one year I am still addicted to it to this place.

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun
...a lot of this same material was covered on earlier pages...SpittinCobra and I practically said the exact same words....

...this topic has been beat to death and still somehow miraculously fallen on deaf ears...

Don't worry Enron, your words were noticed. If this were a thread exposing new information on a particular issue and someone jumped up and said "I found THIS" two posts after you exposed it, you would have a point, but this one is a community issue and people have a right and a need to speak their minds on it, whether they are repeating points you have made or not. That's where the terms "consensus" and "agreeance" come from. You can't stand outside the voting booth and say, "Hey folks, no need to vote Green Party, I already voted for them."

Good point wecomeinpeace....And while I do agree, I think it bears some root in what SO was trying to say in his original post....

I would never dream of silencing someone's candid feelings on the subject matter at hand....But at the same time....If it's already been flogged to death....why continue to flog away.....

Although it's an unconscious decision....it still bears some semblance to this carnal rage we're trying to avoid....

The political party divisions are nonsense... they are the different sides of the same coin...
a coin that is NOT a valued currency to ATSers
the illusion of separation is needed to give them both an audience...

at ATS we should be above that demeaning sheeple herding mechanism...

The thing i see the most that bothers me besides the party protectors, is the "anti-conspiracy" people...

why are they here? if they don't believe conspiracy is rife within our leaders and governments or agencies THEN WHAT PURPOSE DO THEY SERVE? OR WHO?

I have enjoyed ATS almost since its beginning, and have seen the degradation mainly start right after this last election...

in truth, the only candidate that should have been worth defending by ANY ATSers was Badnarick... he was the only one who bothered to cater to our board.
No other candidate was worthy of our defense or support,
yet why did the political fights start?

anyone can go back and see that as propaganda and lies about the candidates started pouring out to the public, the ATSer took the charge of "deny ignorance" to point out those lies... for both sides... and only started a political battle instead...
the sheeple herding machine was working well... so well, even our anti ignorant ATSers were pulled right in.

None of the candidates were our freinds or our defenders... and yet the devotion to them still stirs... and boils...

I did see a few voices of reason during the war... blessed are the peacemakers...

once again... I announce my candidacy for 2008 president on the "anti BS" platform... I will serve the policy of deny ignorance and full government disclosure (so much it hurts) and pledge a non diseased prion free chicken in every pot!

I hearken to the call of the black band, may it moderate my decisions and help improve this board

nice post SO... very timely and needed...

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun
Good point wecomeinpeace....And while I do agree, I think it bears some root in what SO was trying to say in his original post....

I would never dream of silencing someone's candid feelings on the subject matter at hand....But at the same time....If it's already been flogged to death....why continue to flog away.....

Although it's an unconscious decision....it still bears some semblance to this carnal rage we're trying to avoid....

I hear what you're saying Enron, but why should anyone allow anyone else to speak for them. I read all the pages in this thread before replying but my reply is mainly to SO's original post even though I did take consideration what everyone was saying.

We have pages and pages of posts because we have lots of members all of whom are entitled to share their opinion. Once your little back and forth is over, move on, let's other weigh the arguments for themselves and create their own discussion.

Well ... I've had to look at my own personal weaknesses and take a long think on them.

I, personally, have decided that the political forum is not for me. Things that I normally don't give a rat's a** about seem instigatory. I didn't come here to be involved in politics. lord knows there's enough places for that in this world.

My personal opinion is leave those areas in place for the folks that want to be there, and moderate them if you must. However, again personally, I'm just going to stay in the areas that I initially was interested in. My first post here was, simply, "I want to believe". I still feel that way. And with that in mind, I think that is where I will tend to stay ... Unless I can find a way to deal with the politics in a mature, not name-calling, not-pejorative fashion.

Thanks to the original poster here and many other more experienced members for drawing me up short and allowing me to take a look at myself.

i think i get what you're saying, but you cant crontrol everyone, no metter how much you want to have a community without bickering or blaming, that will never happen... bikering and blaming are part of the human nature...and you CANT DENY your nature...everyone bikers and blames... etc etc ... maybe on a higher inlightned state of life, maybe spiritual life ther wont be any bikering...but than again...wont things get boring...?

[edit on 17-3-2005 by BaastetNoir]

Originally posted by twitchy
Let me get this straight, you guys set up a site that encourages debate and discussion, then get bent out of shape when you find that the membership is polarized? LOL

OMG!!! I agree with Twitchy!

Hey ... someone says something ignorant .... so I deny and I post
information that proves the ignorance and hopefully they learn
and grow from that information. If they don't, then they still think
ignorantly. I have learned from some of what people have posted
here. Give and take. No big deal.

The membership does not have to be polarized for debate and discussion to happen. Debate and discussions are based on being open to other possibilties and accepting them if they're proven to be correct.
Polarity is being closed, refusing to budge and resorting to counter attacks, even the if the opposing stance is proven to be correct or more truthful.

[edit on 17-3-2005 by TheBandit795]

The problem is that legitimate debate can be undone by rabid partisan politics.

For example, how many people here can discuss the supposed evidence for 'bush doing 911' without harping on about republican stooges or neoconservative bigots and fatheads? Or how many people can discuss the expanding power and influence of the state in people's lives without raging about pinko communist bastards tekin 'way our guns?

And its ironic because, whoever happens to be in power is the bad guy! I remember seeing anti-clinton propaganda that made the guy out to be satan himself, almost literally, saying that he was destroying everything that was good, and that he was the major tool of the NWO. Another administration comes in, and nothing changes, except the NWO is a facist thing rather than a communist thing. Obviously there is a reality behind all this hysterical propaganda.

Perhaps the best thing for people to start doing is to make more use of the ;ignore' function.

In usenet, your 'killfile' is invaluable. When an obvious troll comes in, you killfile them. You 'plonk' them, so that you don't see any of their posts. You can actually make it so that any posts respondig to them are removed from your site too.

A number of peole here have said 'thats ignorant'. No its not. Whats the sense of getting into a shouting match with a twit? Especially when both people shouting at each other are twits? And politics seems to draw in the biggest twits. So just killfile them. Or kill the thread. Plonk it. Forget about it. Its not a 'cop out'. This board isn't a movement, its a discussion board. The people here aren't trying to reconcile their differences, certainly not when they have politically inspired meltdowns. So whats the sense no?

You can create all the forums and subdivisions you want but you can't change the behaviour of people.

We are stuck with the undesirables, whilst one must be able to voice an opinion
some take it too far. Too many threads turn into mud slinging matches with the left and right wing cliches being shot around.

I really expected all of this to end after the Election. I was wrong.

There is very little room left for the soft left and soft right. Centrists have it even worse.

I'm afraid this is something we'll have to cope with, not eradicate.

Originally posted by Nerdling
You can create all the forums and subdivisions you want but you can't change the behaviour of people.

We are stuck with the undesirables, whilst one must be able to voice an opinion
some take it too far. Too many threads turn into mud slinging matches with the left and right wing cliches being shot around.

I really expected all of this to end after the Election. I was wrong.

There is very little room left for the soft left and soft right. Centrists have it even worse.

I'm afraid this is something we'll have to cope with, not eradicate.

Nerdling is right, its still going on now as we speak. left vs right, US vs Europe, etc, etc...its just so childish now

Originally posted by TheBandit795
The membership does not have to be polarized for debate and discussion to happen. Debate and discussions are based on being open to other possibilties and accepting them if they're proven to be correct.
Polarity is being closed, refusing to budge and resorting to counter attacks, even the if the opposing stance is proven to be correct or more truthful.

BUT- that's just the point.

Lot's of times it doesn't matter what is 'proven.' There are some really stong beliefs out there in the real world that have nothing to do with proofs. For me, I like polarization (as some of you call it). I like it when people feel strongly on an issue.

This is one of the main reason I like ATS. I have changed my veiews on a few things that I have believed in for longer than most posters herein have been alive- all because of 'rants and raves' by the defenders of the views I believed in. You don't get this at debate club!

Look at Pearl Harbor for example. The 'proof' was one thing. The reality after all these years ends up being something else. How many times have you (or anyone) read something that was contrary to your notion of truth only to realize you just might be wrong?
.

.

Personally my opinion is that this website was not about fostering strong beliefs. But about attempting to find out truths.

Form your conclusion at the end, don't form it at the beginning. The most common mistake all people on this planet make is not doing this.

[edit on 17-3-2005 by TheBandit795]

Fine and good- (as to making decision on beliefs)

That begs the question- when is the end?

Also another question- what is truth? Yours or mine?

These are relative to one's own perspective. I understand (wow) what SO is getting at and have had many *sighs* myself. Shoot, I've probably been guilty of some.

I truly see NO problem with 'camps.' There have been a few times on threads where I could not comprehend someone's position even though I believe I fully understood what they were stating. For me, ATS ROCKS
.

.

The end means the end of a discussion, a paper at school, after reading a newspaper etc...

And there are two ways for truth: Facts or beliefs.

When it concern beliefs, or anything else subjective; truth is relative, what may be truth for you may not be truth for another.

When it concerns facts, and what's verifiable, there's only one truth.

Originally posted by Nerdling
We are stuck with the undesirables, whilst one must be able to voice an opinion
some take it too far. Too many threads turn into mud slinging matches with the left and right wing cliches being shot around.

I really expected all of this to end after the Election. I was wrong.

There is very little room left for the soft left and soft right. Centrists have it even worse.

I'm afraid this is something we'll have to cope with, not eradicate.

(Not singling Nerdling, there have been similar thoughts express, his is just the most recent one, and most convenient to quote. )

Given the type of site we are, and where we tend to focus our fact-finding, this attitude is wrong.

While to some degree, my post was lament over how ATS has succumbed to the partisan ditto-mongering pervasive throughout all media, I had hoped to initiate some type of wake-up call.

To simply shrug and say, "Well, that's how it is, we'll have to deal with it," is the wrong response from us. Our response should be, "Why is this happening, how is it happening, and who might be responsible?" If we can't recognize controlling techniques here amongst ourselves, then what good has been the past 1.2 million posts?

We have perhaps the greatest singular brain trust available to contemplate this issue. We should use it.