Originally posted by SpittinCobra

People just want to be apart of something, they have one of three choises, Left, Right, or in the Middle. It is what it is.

I don't agree. I think there are a LOT more than 3 choices - and many different options and alternatives.

IMO - everything is political - but real politics is not about parties - the party thing is a synthetic division. ...And I think that's SO's point.

...ATS and ATSNN offer real opportunities to discuss ideas, identify problems and debate solutions. Which makes this a dangerous place. So all too often, the potential is lost in a focus on partisan accusations.

Disagreement between people is inevitable - but a degeneration into uncivilized accusations that prevents discussion is not. Unfortunately, a few key people encourage and support the degeneration - and push the polarization.

I agree with SO that this polarization is perhaps the greatest conspiracy of our time. I also have observed that several mods help keep the strategy alive, well and flourishing here at ATS.

So what's the solution? Give up? Remove the opportunity? Or go on a witchhunt, and gear up the namecalling?

Nah. This problem is as old as time and the beginning of human socialization. It's a problem of education - and every new member needs to educated on the rules of intelligent discourse, problem-solving, mediation and negotiation. And we all need to be constantly vigilant - Cuz even educated and aware people fall into the trap and get sucked into the "taking sides" vortex.

...The best solution I can come up with? A series of tests. Basic logic, the rules of the game. Create tiered designations for members who pass the tests. ...We all know that some people here know the rules of logic, and they twist them to use in illogical strategy, to prey on the less educated and ruin discussion.

So establish a "logical hierarchy," with points, recognition and titles - and make studying logic a desirable goal at ATS. The titles? Maybe "Philosopher," "Mediator," "Negotiator." ...This will serve several purposes - and at once teach, and provide legitimate defense to the logically impaired. ...It will help deflect distraction, redirection and hijacking - help keep discussion reasonable by giving people the tools they need to participate productively - and cut the illogical partisan-promoters off at the knees.

ATS is about denying ignorance and denying bias, which means it's about education. So take the bull by the horns and just DO it.

imho.

Remember: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to use the internet and he won't bother you for weeks.


.

Well you see WW the namecalling is starting in threads even before the thread author gets attacked, Turdblossom and Greenie Weenie are just two I've read today alone that were completely unwarrented. I did retaliate for the Greenie Weenie remark and I feel a tad ashamed that I did.

We need to take a hard stance on Troll-like behavior. Whenever someone calls someone else a Rightwing nutjob or a Leftwing Loonie it degrades the community, and derails any rational discussion that was taking place.

I know SO does not want to turn this into a Police State but I see no other alternative then to get more mods on board.

Its funny you call it name calling, when people are striving to be called a name. Everyone wants to be something, everone whats to be apart to a winning team, its in our nature.

It dosent even have to be about politcs, take it out of the picture, then you will not have something new, just diffrent.

I feel like in the writing of my post something was lost.

When saing Left, right, and in the middle, I was thinking about peoples natures not agendas.

Well didn't I come late to the party? That's the problem with being in a different time zone to the U.S I guess.

A few thoughts:

* Threads that are political in nature and have no relation to conspiracy matters should be moved to P@TS, no questions asked. Even the War on Terror section should perhaps be moved since it really has nothing to do with conspiracies any more; more it is just people arguing over the justification for the war or lack thereof.

* The old habit of mods jumping into threads and steering them back on topic seems to have died out. I think this is a shame, since so many promising starters turn into slinging matches and end up way off topic that it's ridiculous. The (increasingly rare) occasions I've seen a mod do this I have wanted to give them a big kiss, Bugs Bunny style. The mods it seems are swamped with work these days and unable to keep up with "clerical" work, let alone thread-steering efforts. Perhaps an increase in the number of staff should be considered.

* From what I gather, ATS started out as a small town. Small towns are great, everyone knows everyone, is polite, etc etc. Now, ATS has become a bustling metropolis housing people of every creed and mind-set, and with all the advantages and disadvantages that brings. Nature of the beast I'm afraid.

* Regarding the "left vs right" bickering, being Australian, it just makes me chuckle. In "Oz", most of us know that politicians are all crooks, regardless of which side of the political fence they're on. I have yet to be labelled a "liberal" or a "conservative" in a thread, hopefully because I try (I said try) to stay focused on the issue or the facts, not on which political party is responsible, I dunno.

There's an old saying, "Be careful what you wish for" and I think it holds true here. I remember SO being proud and ecstatic due to the vast increases in membership, as his (and Simon's) baby grew and grew, and rightly so; ATS is only as popular as it is today because it is such a fantastic site. But now the child has become an adolescent and is finding its own way in the world, making its own mistakes and learning its own lessons. As a parent, when this happens all you can do is provide some guidance and hope that your now grown son/daughter listens to your advice. ATS is experiencing that painful period between childhood and adulthood, and sometimes, yes, it will even turn around and yell back at you.

Hoping that ATS will return to the way it once was is futile and you shouldn't waste your time pursuing that end. All you can do is adapt and move with the changes. Creating P@TS was a positive and sterling example of such adaptation. More of this sort of thing is needed and is what will help ATS to mature into a healthy, balanced adult. I look forward to being here to see it.

ATS is not "wounded", it's just not the same board that it used to be. To continue SO's military analogy: Even in the most hopeless of situations, you improvise, you adapt, you overcome. Carry on, soldier.

[edit on 2005/3/17 by wecomeinpeace]

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
Its funny you call it name calling, when people are striving to be called a name.

Uh I do not buy that, I do not like to be called an insane liberal or a Luddite Green ecoterrorist. That is the namecalling I am talking about, basic kintergarden tactics that should stay in the schoolyard.

its in our nature.

I agree, but we can change it. Not impossible but extremely difficult.

well we certainly don't want ATS to be heavily policed, more drama is bound to follow, but as members if we take it into our own hands and maybe start using our ignore buttons, or clearly state to the offending member that we will not tolerate or respond to them, maybe people will start to the get the drift that this is not what ATS is about.

Do we really need more mods? I'm not sure that is the answer, I think some of you just want jobs but seriously, we don't need a title to send a message to someone, it's better to politely ask someone to quit it or face alienation that to start more drama because of course you know some of will start accusing mods of one thing or another.

We just all need to get along abit more and when it comes to politics, lets remember we are all united. Hopefully, the peace will start to come back to ATS and we will see the end to "liberal bashing" or "right wing murder" chants on this board

Originve ally posted by sardion2000
[Uh I do not buy that, I do not like to be called an insane liberal or a Luddite Green ecoterrorist. That is the namecalling I am talking about, basic kintergarden tactics that should stay in the schoolyard.

I dont mean names like that, give me a break. There isnt a time a person should call names like school yard kids.

This is a great example of what I was saing in my first post, You guys are only read what you want, you maybe reading it all, but you only "read it to find cause to argue.

worldwatcher, I just started to use it! I always though the ignore button was for the weak of mind, then I just got tired of certain posters who advocate mass murder or who insessantly degrade other countries because they are "different" and thusly "inferior". The only problem I see with this is that visitors cannot do the same and the same mud slinging matches will start up all over again because someone will see that say James the Lesser bashing bush and they sign up to give him a piece of thier mind, the cycle is self-feeding and we really need to find a way to mitigate it. More Mods is probably the only answer IMO.

Originally posted by SpittinCobra

Originve ally posted by sardion2000
[Uh I do not buy that, I do not like to be called an insane liberal or a Luddite Green ecoterrorist. That is the namecalling I am talking about, basic kintergarden tactics that should stay in the schoolyard.

I dont mean names like that, give me a break. There isnt a time a person should call names like school yard kids.

This is a great example of what I was saing in my first post, You guys are only read what you want, you maybe reading it all, but you only "read it to find cause to argue.

Thank you for making yourself clear. You think I am arguing just for the sake of it? I don't do that, I retaliate which is worse in my mind.

I was just trying to make a point.

You know what this thread is a real eye opener. Maybe ATS is not for me anymore.

The Cyber-Drama Threat Level Alert System seems to be broken.

maybe tougher rules need to come inplace at P@ATS remember we had the same when the mud pit first appeared. There is nothing wrong with a political debate, its just when it turns to name bashing and personal jibes that things need sorting out.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace


The Cyber-Drama Threat Level Alert System seems to be broken.

its always on that level, its been on that for a while now.

So... where do we go from here? Being my usual cynical self, I think keeping all that stuff here and "promoting" wisdom, knowledge, etc., really won't work. This is, after all, an Internet forum so more control is gonna be needed than usual.

Control sucks, but if we want to get what we are looking for, which is a good forum ignorance is truly denied, we need to be smaller.

The way I see it, the stuff on ATS is like a privilege and the membership has thus shown it is not deserving of that privilege.

its always on that level, its been on that for a while now.

I need to make my humour less subtle...

...or maybe more humorous.

[edit on 2005/3/17 by wecomeinpeace]

*wiping tears away*

I love you guys man...

*reaching out for a group hug*....

The truth of the matter is, a lot of this same material was covered on earlier pages...SpittinCobra and I practically said the exact same words....but it was only picked up on now b/c when I made my post earlier, there were far too many people arguing to take the time to read what anyone else has said...

When I read a post, or plan to contribute, I try to take in to account for everything that has been mentioned....

Threads that go for twenty pages are useless and serve only as a reflection pool for our own dwindling thought-process.....

But - I'm sure my post will be overlooked....ten pages from now someone will mention the same thing and people will respond to it, and someone will actually have the smart idea of closing this thread, b/c as I see it, this topic has been beat to death and still somehow miraculously fallen on deaf ears.....

agreed.
this thread should be closed now, its just going to end up with one endless dicussion which will keep getting trashed.