"Dark Days"

Thats why I've been barely posting at all for the last few months, I've grown sick of the arguing

Skeptic Overlord, I thought it had more become a pro-authories VS libertarians forum... or maybe it's just going more precise on your definition of the "right" and the "left". Of course there are heavy debates between neoconservatives and social-democrats, but in the background the real struggle is between the ones that are on the side of the government (and corporations) and the ones that fight it. But then again... isn't the direction the "outside world" is taking in these dark, cold days?

And yes... I am truly angry at the puppet masters. I can foresee their downfall from a distance...

It's my passionate stance that ATS should limit itself to things like science, weaponry, conspracies, and such. Bringing things like politics and mainstream issues has really screwed things up.

PistolPete brings up a valid point when he points out that during the Clinton years the side crying foul was 100% behind their guy's policy. The blatant reversal in the parties calling foul and the fact that this has happened repeatedly should be a sign to all of us.

yeah sweetmonicaIdo is right, political threads should be limited, if not removed. I have no problems keeping politics outside of this forum. Actually politics are a lot better into individual or collective real-life action than in threads were your positions won't have a lot of consequences in our world.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
It's my passionate stance that ATS should limit itself to things like science, weaponry, conspracies, and such. Bringing things like politics and mainstream issues has really screwed things up.

If ATS didn't have politics than a lot of people wouldn't visit thus rendering the owner of ATS not raking in profits from the tons of ads all over ATS.

Originally posted by Pisky
Dump the lobbyists for a start.

But that requires that no one is allowed to advise or inform the politicians.

Vote only for the person and his/her beliefs and make them work for your vote.

People rarely vote the strick party line, or at least rarely only vote because of the party. Look at the US election. You didn't have to be a republican to dislike kerry. Infact, its obvious that that wasn't the case; since democrats outnumber republicans, some democrats voted for bush.
So the candidates beleifs are going to tend to be in line with one party or the other, because the parties are in line with the major lines of thought in the public, and the candidates are simply members of the public anyway.
Given that, the addition of party machinery, which by nature and necessary intent, seeks to maintain itself and its membership, only adds to the inevitable problem.

Limit the amount of corporate financial support available.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this. However, no one can agree on how it shoudl be done. Certainly, corporations have a right to contribute to politicians. Certainly, citizens have a right to contribute to politicians and parties also. So how can that right be effectively limited? I agree, corporate influence is a problem. Alongside that, the contributions and influences of interest groups, and private collections of people, is a problem. Can they be limited also?

I remember once reading that any American had the chance to become President. If that was every true, its not anymore.

Clinton.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
It's my passionate stance that ATS should limit itself to things like science, weaponry, conspracies, and such. Bringing things like politics and mainstream issues has really screwed things up.

How can those other items be discussed without reference to politics? Ceratinly most conspiracies involve the govnerment and the actions of parties motivated by their party politics.

Since when did surfing the web...chatting....learning...exploring and communicating ever become such a utopian experience that it should deny those who seek truth the opportunity to vehemently disagree?

To deny ignorance, as one assumes we all attempt our best to do, does not mean that we cease to be human beings.....

If you are still saddened by the fact that we behave the way our social constructs limit us to, then perhaps it's not ATS that you're feeling unsatisfied with, but something else in this general atmosphere we call life....

I have nothing but respect for you SO, and all the mods here at ATS - and my fellow members as well - But, damnit...I disagree....and think by making your mood more obvious than it need be, your only distracting quality posters further.....

While I agree that I can't stand watching two people rip each other's heads off over whether something is black or white, I respect it as their form of catharsis, and it often tells you a great deal about a person's character...for better or worse.....

The black bar is poetic...and nothing more....

Those are my initial thoughts....

Originally posted by Nygdan
How can those other items be discussed without reference to politics? Ceratinly most conspiracies involve the govnerment and the actions of parties motivated by their party politics.

The problem is, we are dedicating specific rooms and forums just for politics. That's the problem.

Referencing politics in things like "New World Order" is unavoidable, but it's a mistake to make entire forums and rooms for politics. If you ask me, ATS should go back to being alternative and strike all mainstream stuff from the payroll. It's harsh, but it's apparent the members cannot handle the great rooms and forums we have.

As for ATS not making money, I don't know too much about that, but I think "Deny Ignorance" should be the priority, is it not?

I can only wonder why it was chosen to openly state the blatanly obvious, but then I guess its better to make things clear for those who may not have noticed the subtle changes. My input most likely means spit due to my relatively short membership when contrasted against many senior members, but even in the year and few months I have been active on the site I have noticed the trends of which everyone has already spoken.

We all here may want to Deny Ignornace, but in doing that we have overlooked the fact that we are just like those we view as propagating Ignorance; human. We screw up, we err, and we are all suceptible to being played no matter how strong willed and independant we think outselves to be. Could anyone here really expect the community to not be infected by the same virus that runs rampant through the rest of the population?

The way I see it the polarization we see here is just a carry over of how we all feel in the real world, but on a much more open field. As much as I and probably many others would like to see the removal of the usage of slaging political terms, its just not going to happen without implementing draconian meausres which would cause most of ATS to cry foul. Even that would probably not solve the problem, the only real solution requires so much of every single person that correction and change is neigh on impossible (but not completely). I wont bore anyone further with banter of change and correction of the issues at hand, those are all better tackled by someone of true ATS stature.

Getting at the truth of a matter means being open to accepting uncomfortable conclusions, even conclusions or findings coming from other ideological viewpoints.

I understand what you are getting at SO but you have framed it in the American two party context.

Politics for me personally is about issues. I have voted for four different parties in my lifetime, there were five parties in the Canadian Parliament just a few years ago (4 right now) and there are other fringe parties as well. They are all corrupt to some degree because that's what power and influence does to people.

I hold no blind allegiances to any of them.

I never understood people's undying loyalty to a political party. Can someone explain that to me? Why would someone limit themselves like that?

Why can't we take ideas from all quarters and address issues on a case-by-case basis? I have tried to resist any ideological constraints ever since I can remember. I never liked anybody telling me how I should think. That’s why when people label me as liberal or socialist or communist and yes even conservative on occasion it makes me crazy.

Just because you identify as conservative/liberal on one issue does not mean that you have to be a conservative/liberal on all issues, or that liberals/conservatives are your sworn enemy, or that any information coming from a source from the "other" camp is automatically dismissible. This mindset seems to prevail in a society where winning is everything and you must destroy your enemy by any means. I see that mindset creeping into Canadian politics and looking how far it has succeeded down south I fear that kind of division. Because the phrase "divided they fall" has been a truism for millennia.

Thankfully there is still plenty of flexibility and compromise (that is NOT a dirty word) in Canadian politics. Unfortunately we don't have the influence on the world that the US has.

You say why not yell at the puppet master rather than yell at the puppets?

Because we are puppets who do not know they serve masters. Worse. Some people don't know that they don't know! Those who see the strings and point them out are called names and are ostracized. Others believe that the masters are people rather than ideology or ideas. We are slaves to ideas and bad ones at that. "Education" and indoctrination does the rest.

People on ATS have fallen victim to US centric political culture or the "foreigners" are simply staying away. There is even one person who replied to a post of mine telling me that I had no business commenting on a US matter (and I am not alone in that club). As if my rational mind could not possibly understand an issue, apply an insight or form an opinion because I live an hour's drive on the wrong side of a line on a map. (funny I can never find those damn lines on the ground)

I don't know what the solution is or if it even exists. I can see and understand what is going on but can't quite express it in words (even this post is getting muddled) mush less begin to formulate a response to the closed mindedness I encounter here (or the tactical argumentative attacks based in ego).

At some point it’s just not worth the effort anymore.

Are we there yet?
.

Originally posted by Gools
Conspiracies are Political. Period.

But politics isn't necessary a conspiracy. And therein lies the dilemma.

No alternateheaven, your input, whether you are new or not, is as important as the most senior member of ATS.

To echo the poster before you, I seriously think ATS needs to reevaluate it's vision. Does it want to be mainstream or alternative? Mainstream will make the money, but the quality will go down. Alternative will avoid about 90% of the problems we have currently, but that would bring some bad press from the members, etc.

And like you say, alternate, it's human nature. But therein lies another question, are we gonna just let it run rampant or are we gonna try to be good, smart boys and gals?

I like to add my thoughts here about this solemn subject:

We have fallen because our ideas and beliefs are too different, too different for some, too stubborn for others, and too dang stubborn for the few. It's not about the right or the left and what political conspiracies beholden to the agenda to divide and conquer between the right and the left.

We have fallen to the diversity of ideas and beliefs from others to the point such wisdom and conviction have become murky and confused. Blame our upbringing. Blame our own educations. Blame ourselves for it. Blame our short-sightedness, our bias, our fondly nurtured prejudice, our weaknesses, our sin of fallen short of the glory and grace of God.

Your wisdom is not the same as mine. My wisdom is not the same as yours. Common interests, mutual beliefs and shared basic principles in life are all we have for our normal lives. But our wisdoms to life are vastly different. An old man's wisdom is based on his own lifetime experiences but it is not the same as yours nor mine. All of us goes through life with different experiences, different things, different circumstances, etc., of which to give us different ideas and beliefs over the years.

When you all were young children, do you remember the very ideas, however childish or naive, you'd came up while growing up? Do you still hold onto that ideas as you're growing up or has life made you lose such childish/naive ideals as you come face to face the daily realities?

Do you still believe or had it changed?

I cannot expect my ideas and beliefs to be superior or important over others, at least I try to express it myself the only way I know how to communicate through here or anywhere with anyone. I can accept yours as you can accept mine, I may reject yours as you may reject mine. Not everyone's ideas or beliefs meshed together well. We all express it differently. At least we give each other the benefit of doubt.

Deny ignorance, deny balance, deny whatever. But don't deny yourself the opportunity to express your core ideas and beliefs, they aren't right and they aren't wrong, but they are YOURS. People will take what they can either accept or reject as you can either accept or reject theirs. People will bicker or slam others, such is life. People will talk or discuss about anything with others, such is life as well.

Let others divide and conquer all of us. We are doing the same thing to them, as always. The struggle of ideas and the diversity of beliefs are what keep us down-to-earth and humbled.


One more thing: there will always be stupid people saying or posting stupid things here or anywhere, because they either don't know any better or just being ignorant of the obvious.

Originally posted by the_oleneo
there will always be stupid people saying or posting stupid things here or anywhere, because they either don't know any better or just being ignorant of the obvious.

And don´t forget that anyone can have a bad day. I´ve had my share of "bad days", and so has others here I guess...

Lamenting any change in ATS without making clear the philosophy of same via articles of by-law and adhering to them will not correct whatever issues play heavily on the mind(s) of the owner(s) of this site. When I joined here six months ago I was delighted by the number of extra-north American posters, what they had to offer, and teh diversity of their topics, but that membership seems to be steadily diminshing. I am not surprised, as I have in a subtle way, on more than one occassion, highlighted a decisive move toward alienation by bringing this to the attention of the power that is, but to no avail and with no acknowledgement.

The motto of this site is; deny ignorance, but ignorance seems to have been limited to the definition of the Webster's New collegiate Dictionary. Perhaps it should be; promoting world-wide diversity of thought; or challenging dogma; or even something as simplistic as; ATS: where the world finds freedom of speech.

At the time of this writing, only one country has been mentioned in previous posts, this is clearly indicative of what political approach this site is coming to represent. As such, there are only two such views represented, left and right according to that country's standards.

ATS has many wonderful attributes in that the administration has obviously laboured to make the content appealing to just about every topic of discussion they can think of, but like it or not, politics will always play a large part in world affairs, and it will be the decisive factor which sets the tone for membership.

I agree, within the past few months I have lost interest in posting because it seems everything is a debate now a days. Instead of embracing everyones unique perspective of how they see different topics it seems now all people want to do is discredit or embaress someone for thier lack of knowledge rather than enlightining them with the truth. I used to feel really comfortable participating in alot of the forums even if my thoughts were way off track. Now I lurk in the background for most of the day instead of ranting away like I did in the beginning.


Just my thoughts....

The political puppet masters have the money, the media- everything that it takes to make a decent stand peacefully. I've pondered over how things could possibly be made right again, and I have no clue. Nothing seems to work. You can't get 10 people to write a friggin letter to their congressman; I tried. One person asked me to write their letter for them so they could just print it and send it!
We are expertly controlled indeed. All we want to do is fight the partisan fight- we don't want to win, we don't want to rock the boat, we just want to go through this political bickering like our masters tell us to.

To steal a movie cliche, "They are guarding all the doors and they are holding all the keys, which means that sooner or later, somebody is going to have to face them." I can't think of any way to face them without a weapon in hand, but somehow a fight, much less a war, just seems unthinkable. It's just not supposed to come to that.

I like to think I'm pretty smart, and I'd like to think I see most of the angles, but it'll take someone a lot smarter than me to come up with an answer better than "government was always corrupt, it always will be corrupt, and if you'd like a brief intermission between corrupt regimes the price is that you have to kill your fellow countrymen."
Sorry to be so incredibly unhelpful and depressing.