OP/ED: Dark Days. (The black band on ATS)

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posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:27 PM
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I'm glad that it was said, just not that it had to be.

Here, I think this is kind of what SO is talking about (right?):

Power Grab Through Executive Orders

As Clinton Spoke Words of Hope, Riot Police Swung Into Action

Many, many articles written pre-Bush about Clinton look eerily similar to things people are saying about Bush. It's just that the political affiliations of the people saying them have flipped. I could find many more examples as it took longer to write the BB Code than look them up.

That's the thing. Six years ago Republicans were ranting and raving about Clinton creating a police state and making unjustifiable acts of war. Those same people are now defending the similar actions of the President. And on the flip side of that, the people defending what Clinton was doing are working themselves into a tizzy over Bush. It's so frustrating.

It's good that people are finally waking up to some things, but I have the sinking feeling that if a Democrat is elected in four years the script will once again flip.

Every one allies with their team and can't see past red or blue. Or in some cases the Red, White, and Blue.

The course of the nation did not begin on Inaugration Day 2001, and not every action or event that takes place in the country can be attributed to the President. I think some people fail to realize that.

[edit on (3/16/0505 by PistolPete]




posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Perhaps a return to tradition 'roots' would be in order?

Keep politics and the like relegated to Politics@ATS.
Divide is natural, as with passion to debate sides, but I suppose that ignorance is the ultimate end game in such discussions.


seekerof, i want to quote your entire post, but it wouldnt right. thats pretty much exactly how i read it.

It's always darkest right before the light.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:32 PM
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Everybody on ATS should be forced to read this post

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's an excellent analysis of the problem, and I'm sure we could put our heads together to find a solution.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:35 PM
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I've noticed this myself and it's a major factor in why I don't post very much. I became a member here because of the intelligent discussion and relatively mature posts. In the last 4 months or so, I can barely stand to read even my favorite forums. People are nit-picking, calling names, ranting about minor complaints, and so on. It's been driving me away. I am glad this gradual change is being recognized. Now what can we do to fix it?



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:35 PM
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Isn't itThere's always calm before the storm? But both can be true. Let's wait and see. I hope it becomes better. Perhaps we can all try and change? Once they see the light, people should do this. But it probably won't work, sigh.

[edit on 083131p://333 by BluePostman]


Odd

posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:35 PM
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how about we start moving ALL political threads to PATS, and warning anyone that posts a politically-charged thread on ATS or BTS?

just a suggestion... but you did go to all the trouble of making the thing; it's a shame that nobody uses it.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by Odd
how about we start moving ALL political threads to PATS, and warning anyone that posts a politically-charged thread on ATS or BTS?

just a suggestion... but you did go to all the trouble of making the thing; it's a shame that nobody uses it.


I like this idea. Isnt the mud pit meant for charged up threads anyway?



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by PistolPete
That's the thing. Six years ago Republicans were ranting and raving about Clinton creating a police state and making unjustifiable acts of war. Those same people are now defending the similar actions of the President. And on the flip side of that, the people defending what Clinton was doing are working themselves into a tizzy over Bush. It's so frustrating.

I hope this doesn't get off-topic, but it is something that has been going on in mind mind the last week or so. I recently bought Bob Dylan'sUnplugged and started listening to The Times They Are A-Changin. Although the song was written in 1964, it still stands true today. Only the players are changed. It was less party against party than it is now.
It was more what is wrong with the country and how can we fix it.


Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

www.bobdylan.com...



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:44 PM
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The issue that motivated me to explore ATS was the unanswered questions arising from the 9/11 peacetime disaster and what came from it and because of it.

This is the biggest government conspiracy of the past 60 years in the US.

I would be grateful to know how the truth concerning all issues relating to this national security failure can be explored, free of politics.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Just who exactly are the Puppetmasters?

Why think that 'they' are a 'they'? Conspiracies of great magnitude don't need insidious actors or cigarette smoking shadow men. They don't need sinister directors tediously manipulating the perceptions of the people with long thin strings. The public can deceive itself. The people can yeild great things without great men. Why wouldn't they also be capable of projecting the very ropes that bind them up and tie them off from one another?
It need not be any government or any administration that has to do these things. There doesn't need to be a dark 'them' lurking in the distance, its a nice rallying point, its good to have an enemy to rally against, but it might not be true.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:48 PM
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I have a very reactionary view of this situation...

The way I see it, ATS has gotten TOO big. Way too big. We've gone "mainstream" in many ways, and as a result, opened the Pandora's Box. By creating forums for things like politics/economics, all these mainstream issues, we've pretty much created our own problems.

What do I suggest? I say we shrink. I say we become the "Alternative Topics" board like we used to be. Here's what I propose:

-Remove the Current Events forums. This is where a huge chunk of the ignorance stems from. It's apparent nobody who posts there can have intelligent discussions anymore. These are also such sensitive issues and that's a huge problem.
-Remove TerrorAnalysis. More ignorance.
-Keep ATSNN News, but make it more like CNN.com, where people post and read news updates but do not discuss it.
-Keep Ignorance Denied. That's the only place that actually lives up to it's namesake.
-Remove Politics@ATS. That's bad news!!!
-Keep Belowtopsecret.com. That place is cool.

I realized what I am proposing is very restrictive and limited, but I say if we can't handle bigger things, then there's no use in having it. I pretty much think ATS has gotten too big for itself and the only way it can truly "Deny Ignorance" is to limit itself, be more "alternative" unlike now. People need limits in order for things to run smoothly.

BTW, Seekerof... you never fail to mystify...



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:51 PM
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Since the election, I've pretty much tried to stay clear of politics for the most part... I'm not a big fan of Democrats, nor especially Republicans...

But, given the support of Badnarik here at ATS last time, I'm not so sure the left vs. right label is as applicable as you may think... While I've strayed to forums touching on the political on occassion, I've largely been able to avoid them as of late...



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:52 PM
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What can I say.....I told you so. I knew allowing this political content into ATS would result in it's downfall. It used to be about conspiracies and such, now it's just another political board.

I can barely stand to be on the site for more than a few minutes before I get disgusted and have to leave. I've started to avoid even looking at threads because I know they're just going to end in partisan name-calling.

Eh, this could have been prevented, but it's too late now. Unless extreme measures are taken, ATS will be lost.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:53 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
Since the election, I've pretty much tried to stay clear of politics for the most part... I'm not a big fan of Democrats, nor especially Republicans...

But, given the support of Badnarik here at ATS last time, I'm not so sure the left vs. right label is as applicable as you may think... While I've strayed to forums touching on the political on occassion, I've largely been able to avoid them as of late...


i never visited PTS once yet...

ok, maybe i visited about 2-3 times


is this bad???

i am not a "fan" of politics really...





posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
(9/11) This is the biggest government conspiracy of the past 60 years in the US.

I disagree. While aspects of the terror attacks on the U.S. smell of serious political cover-up... I don't think it's the biggest.



I would be grateful to know how the truth concerning all issues relating to this national security failure can be explored, free of politics.

Here is the biggest. It has become impossible to discuss important issues without the distraction of polarized political banter. This is the biggest, most effective, and most brilliantly conceived conspiracy of the past 100 years. Divide the populace into two camps such that all issues become obscured in one against the other. Brilliant.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 09:01 PM
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Politics is conspiratorial by nature, and many (most?) popular conspiracies involve the "Government", specific parts of it, or manipulating it. Discussion about conspiracies can't help but address politics eventually.

I'm not sure conspiracy and politics can be seperated but the rhetoric sure could be toned down. The examples are numerous; the constant bush bashing from the left, the "rubbing it in" and liberal baiting from the right. Sometimes I get a laugh from that stuff but I'm fine with going to P@ATS and BTS to get it.

I'd say you had the right idea with P@ATS, but you may have to vigorously enforce it for a while.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 09:05 PM
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as posted by sweatmonicaIdo
BTW, Seekerof... you never fail to mystify...

Yeah, I guess I don't, eh, sweatmonicaIdo?

I see that despite your constructive solutions, that you still found away to keep with "systematic polarization." This spoken of "polarization" is not limited or simply regulated to political discussions or issues, sweatmonicaIdo. This topic goes beyond you and I, and as such, your last derrogatory comment could have been better left to other topic arena's?

Debate forum, perhaps?



seekerof



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 09:07 PM
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How about leaving ATS forums the way they are and confronting ignorance with wisdom?
You can't just keep rearranging the problem because it will still be a problem but in a different place.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 09:09 PM
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Strange as it is, over the last few weeks I have found myself wondering why exactly we need politicians anyway. Any politicians. It's been long since I found one with a shred of loyalty to the people (of whichever country they belong to), nor one who can't be bought. These days its all 'Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' and although there has always been an amount of cronyism recently it has become out of control.

How do we deal with it ?

Dump the lobbyists for a start.
Vote only for the person and his/her beliefs and make them work for your vote.
Limit the amount of corporate financial support available.

I remember once reading that any American had the chance to become President. If that was every true, its not anymore. You can't become President without a massive infusion of money and that is just wrong.

We don't need politicians. We need true leaders. We need leaders who are willing to sacrifice themselves for their beliefs, not just sacrifice others. We really haven't had a decent President or Prime Minister UK for decades.
Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Heath, Callaghan, Thatcher, Major, Blair - All bought and paid for by the lobbyists and the corporations.

We don't need this. We're just letting them use us as pawns in their power games. We're buying into their scams and instead of fighting them, we're fighting ourselves - just as they want us to do. Because while we're arguing amongst ourselves, they slip a few more 'Liberty curtailing' laws behind our backs.

I think I understand what Skeptic Overlord means, but I can't believe that ATS is mortally wounded. I do believe that its time to lick our hurts and realise who and what the true 'enemy' is. Whether you are Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Tory or Labour, fighting against ourselves is futile. All that does is weaken us and lets the 'bad guys' win.

No pixyness on this thread I'm afraid - its too serious for that.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 09:11 PM
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Well so long as we remain an open access site, which I believe we should continue to go with, we will continue to draw trolls. With a site this large it's inevitable.

Personally I think politics@ATS is doing us a lot of good. It keeps our inner demons away from high priority sections on ATS and focuses them somewhere else. Anyhow my idea is to keep P@ATS, only add more moderators to that site. The masterpiece of the main ATS site should begin to enforce rules that will focus the site more so on conspiracies and less on politics.

I welcome political debate to an extent, however I think it needs to stay seperate. But alas, as the evil of politics seeps into ATS we continue to go into darker times. SO has done a lot for the community, perhaps as members there is more we can do in return to make ATS better. Perhaps we need more moderators. Or maybe strickter anti-board troll rules are needed.



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