OP/ED: Dark Days. (The black band on ATS)

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posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 10:41 PM
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I would never presume to speak for SO.

However, I think, that while SO is a little cryptic, reading SO's last post previous to the black band post, might give you some insight into what he was thinking about.

SO last line in the tread says


The polarization is successful. The truth is hidden


The post was about IndyMedia. For me the post has a 3 fold impact on my thoughts.

1. IndyMedia was taken off-line for some of their content. (a nitemare thought for any admin)

2. It is generally agreed that IndyMedia has a bad reputation of false and misleading information.

3. The tread had nothing to do with politics, but broke down into political debate within the first 4 posts.

Then look at what he posted on this thread.



We have allowed the sickness of petty political bickering to find a foothold and cause a widespread infection. "Deny Balance" should be the new motto, as right-blaming-left and left-blaming-right is pervasive throughout the board.


If you ran a large blog, you would not want:

1. Big brother to shut you down.
2. To be viewed in general as spreading false and misleading information.
3. You most certainly would not want every single thread breaking down into a political bashing on every single subject!

Frankly, I came her searching for answers and maybe discoveries on Zero Point Energy, the Fermi Paradox, stealth aircraft, the sphinx, etc. and to help pass on my (little) research and knowledge of computers in the computer help forum.

I was overjoyed and inspired with posts by the incredible Intelgurl (among others). All hard facts, no bull, no politics. And I learned a great more than I was able to give back.

It is truly sad that in the last few months even threads about non political subjects. Great and wonderful subjects. Things that could change the world.....even these are subjected to the rantings of furious political debate now.

I have taken to reading BTS more and more to help avoid it. I hope we can fix this, so that our research and information sharing can help change the world, or at least be viewed as a bastion of inteligence, thought provoking ideas and serious research on difficult subjects.


Leave the political debate in PTS or begone.


makeitso




posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 11:05 PM
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Man, I was wondering about the black band, but I don't understand any of this. I guess folks who've been here a long time have different view. Isn't argument part of the process of filtering information?

As for ATS possibly getting shut down due to false information, under what circumstances could that happen? Where are the servers located and if they're in a restrictive nation, just move the site to a different country. What's the problem? Also, I am curious to know what stories are being referred to? I mean I thought the beauty of this place (to me anyway) is that anything can be discussed.

Also, are we talking about partisan politics here as in Dem vs. Repub? If so, then what's the problem? If, say, 80% of the members belong to one party or another, then surely they are going to defend their party. That's not anything new and I would blame the political process rather than anything else. Personally I loathe both parties and would never vote for either one. Skull and Bones, anybody? Also, isn't ATS an international site? There's lots more political parties in the world than just donkeys and elephants.

Anytime you have an open door policy you're gonna attract some scumbags but the general membership seems pretty good about handling those people and correcting them or notifying the Mods, right? Plus, these Moderators are excellent and are RIGHT on top of stuff. Excellent work all around.


I love this place and I've tried to keep things on topic (though I can be a bit aggro at times) and have tried to keep the waters warm for new folks who might feel a little timid when sharing their thoughts. Having only been here for a few months I can say that ATS is the coolest thing on the web. I'm here for the long haul unless somebody tells me to get lost.

I love ATS!



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 11:34 PM
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I think the moderators do a great job as well. The fact they openly participate also ensures they are 100% fully aware of what goes on. I didn't say it at the time, but I was most impressed when I said I was surprised a thread wasn't closed down because of the rampant mud-slinging (it was dirty stuff), and a mod read my post and closed the thread down. Impressed because I didn't even notify a mod about it!

However, like I said earlier, ATS has just gotten too big for itself. And even the mods are having a tough time keeping order and it clearly shows. I really think it's time we "close ranks" and go back to being alternative because it's obvious being this big isn't working out and getting bigger's only gonna lead to disaster. There is only so much the admins can do and people will always be people. For what it's worth, ATS is my favorite place in cyberspace. it truly is unique and it has been my outlet for all sorts of enlightenment and I feel I've become smarter and more knowledgable since I started reading at ATS. But what has to be done has to be done.

So... here's to return to alternaty!


[edit on 16-3-2005 by sweatmonicaIdo]



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 11:44 PM
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Well done opening.

I disagree, but it is dramatic. (a-la TNT 'what is drama?')

So what if left and right shoot at each other- big deal. It denies nothing except some tolerance. If tolerance must die then let it die for the sake of new thoughts and perspectives. That is what has happened at ATS- nothing to be sad about. Rejoice and drag your overly wroght self-wounded form back into the light.

I like ATS. I like reading someone wanting to cuss someone for being one way or another and searching for words so they don't get 'dinged.' This place is great. Americans are by far the worst at the slams but they are having the hardest time trying to understand their place in the world. They want to believe- evidence says one thing, but, but - - - -

Look at the Aussies- how stunned they were when their government extended territoriality on the oceans. ATSNN thread Stunning, to say the least.

Feel bad if you want- you have only yourselves to blame for feeling low. I'm glad someone finally explained that fricken black strip/stripe- I re-booted and tried 3 different browsers trying to get it to go away.

People learn when they get angry- all does not have to be smooooooth.

lighten up



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 11:48 PM
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Well as far as I see it Skeptic, we are down but we are far from out. I agree, many have fallen prey to this "divide and conquer" agenda but as long as there are still those that can see through this smoke screen there will always be a meeting place such as this. I feel your frustration though, as I see it everyday from family members and friends to members here on ATS. The big picture is a lot harder to see these days but some of us here can still see it. It's not about the political party you belong to or what side you are on but smiply what is the truth and what is right. I never will and never have been able to look the other way when an injustice has been comitted. If it's wrong, you can spin it any way you want but, in the end, it will still be wrong. I consider myself an individual part of a greater community. The key word there though, is individual. Saddly, many in todays society have just simply succumbed to all the disiformation and walk blindly through this world lead by those in power. It's time that we wake up, put these alliances aside and work towards what is right and true in this world. We can turn this around, yes it is possible, and what better place than one of the fastest growing sites on the web.



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Make no mistake, you are being expertly controlled. Even here, in this venue that should be beyond the puppet masters' strings, we have succumbed to the subtle manipulations of thought and reason. Instead of looking in agner toward the puppet masters, you yell at the puppets.


That right there says it all (to me). There is no doubt in my mind that we have RNC paid propagandist flooding ATS with BS. I don't see how anyone can be so loyal to an individual with whom they do not really know other than what they see on TV. That strikes me as strange and abnormal. But I'm not bias, the DNC does the same thing. And hell, it's hard to see who is who anymore. It all must come from one source. I suppose money will make people do anything nowadays. But remember, money is not the root of all evil... people are. However, I do think the world would be a better place if there was some way to get rid of money - but people won't work for nothing, unless of course they have a passion for what they doing. Anyways, I'm getting off topic.

I suggest some people should take a hard look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves why they are thinking the way they are. They should ask themselves, "Are my thoughts my own?"


[edit on 3-17-2005 by EmbryonicEssence]



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 12:26 AM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

I would be grateful to know how the truth concerning all issues relating to this national security failure can be explored, free of politics.

Here is the biggest. It has become impossible to discuss important issues without the distraction of polarized political banter. This is the biggest, most effective, and most brilliantly conceived conspiracy of the past 100 years. Divide the populace into two camps such that all issues become obscured in one against the other. Brilliant.


I would not say it is "impossible" to discuss important issues, but difficult at times. Lets not bow down to distraction so easily. Those of us that are involved and would like to remove the "political distraction" can take some resposibility in threads to keep subjects on topic and help to educate. Its not only a job for Moderators, but for all members to help bring about and maintain this change. Remind people of these points constantly and consistently , which is what SO has started by posting this thread. The majority of you posting in here are very active in many threads. Help steer people in the right direction, help them focus on their points using facts. Help them remove the politics behind things and expose the facts. It is only through all of us that we can help deny ignorance.



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 12:38 AM
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I want to throw out an idea I haven't seen presented yet.

Perhaps the Political Parties have infiltrated this board to spread their views.

There are several threads on this board that bring up government employees posing as news reporters and releasing "news".

All good conspiritists know the CIA has controlled the media for years, probably starting with the Washington Post and the Graham family. They have sent their CIA Reporters to the "other" big newspapers that are "Must Read" across the nation. Pretty much a known fact.

This board has become big enough and popular enough. What makes you think the Political Parties and the CIA have not infiltrated this board to spread their disinformation?

[edit on 3/17/05 by Qwas]



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Perhaps a return to tradition 'roots' would be in order?

Keep politics and the like relegated to Politics@ATS.
Divide is natural, as with passion to debate sides, but I suppose that ignorance is the ultimate end game in such discussions.
Whose 'right' and whose 'wrong'?
Who has the truth or is telling the truth?
Who is bringing enlightenment and who is bringing merely ignorance?
All sources are virtually in question, and as such, one claims to have the inside on sources of worth, whereas, another has his/her own sources of worth.
Just who exactly are the Puppetmasters?
That is surely a debate within itself.

This is almost mind numbing in its degree of depth.

I think that most of us, including myself, have played a role or part in this "systematic polarization" that has been taking place within ATS and on ATSNN.

Difficult questions to answer unless we put our subjective bias' aside and learn to be objective in the sense that we understand both sides of an issue.

The solution to this will only come from within the ATS community.

Thank you for your efforts to expose this SO. I know that you have been warning of this for quite sometime.




seekerof

[edit on 16-3-2005 by Seekerof]


Wery well said, and I agree with the sentiment, however, there is one thing we must consider in furthering this sentiment. Recently in American politics, religion has played an increasingly more important role, and in politics now, it's not just party versus party, but also theology versus theology. Mayhaps in the spirit of returning to the fundamentals of why this forum exists, we should relegate both to a place seperate from the conspiracies that intrigue us all here. Religion and politcs are the two things that are never to be discussed, without expecting a heated debate and often times resulting in lines drawn in the sand.

I'm still fairly new here, but this site and its forums have intrigued me, caused me to think, and reawaken within myself. I thank everyone who has had a part in this wonderful site. I do not wish to see it fail, but rather to thrive. I will stand behind whatever is needed to make it thrive.

Thank you all again, for making this forum what it is, and thank you to the moderators who do their best to keep it true to itself. Keep ATS alive!



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 12:57 AM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Here is the biggest. It has become impossible to discuss important issues without the distraction of polarized political banter. This is the biggest, most effective, and most brilliantly conceived conspiracy of the past 100 years. Divide the populace into two camps such that all issues become obscured in one against the other. Brilliant.


I'm not an admin kiss ass at all (like some of you 13 year olds), believe me. But this is dead F'ing on. Divide and conquer is a major tenet of all general's since the "Art of War", and even before. If you pay some attention you'd realize that not too much that this administration has done has not been without the support of Democrat legislators or by edict of the previous administration.

Answer this question: Would conservative Republicans be behind a war that was started by a Democrat President? In my opinion: absolutley not. Just look at the actions Clinton took towards terrorists. That was "bad" right. It's just so silly and frustrating.

You Chicken Little F'ers look like political hacks and flaming morons. Sorry.



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 01:22 AM
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I leave you guys alone for a few weeks and look what happens


When you were patting yourselves on the back for having thousands of new members every week, didn't you think that maybe you were going to end up with a nice disorganized and opposed group? Sure, there's a few hardcore conspiracy theorists around here, but most just have a passing interest, myself included. And personal beliefs on politics, or anything else, are natural.

You created a gigantic website that thousands of surfers come to every day, and you're somehow suprised by the fact that it's turning out exactly like the rest of the internet? You seemed to concerned with making ATS a 'success' that you didn't actually pay attention to what was happening. I think you took yourselves waaay to seriously. Hate to burst everyone bubble, but ATS is just a message board.

Drop the drama act and fix the damn place. We're 'Mortally Wounded" my ass, this place is no different now than when I joined over a year ago. The problem is that you're just beginning to realize that this place has always been like this. Stop being so lenient and allowing "Deny Ignorance" to mean "Post whatever crazy bull# you want. Take some effin' responsibility.



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 01:26 AM
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Observation:

Divide the populace into two camps such that all issues become obscured in one against the other. Brilliant. == SkepticOverlord

Example:

(Apology to EmbryonicEssence = of all the posts so far yours is the easiest to re-assemble to
show the conveyed meaning, with an honorable mention to PistolPete)

I suggest some people should take a hard look at themselves in the mirror and ask
themselves why they are thinking the way they are. They should ask themselves, "Are my thoughts my own?"
There is no doubt in my mind that we have RNC paid propagandist flooding ATS with BS. But I'm not bias........ == EmbryonicEssence

Question:
Is SkepticOverlord willing to be blunt, without political correctness, to specify "the mortal" wound? Or did I read (erroniously) the past tenses and past praise in the
first post to be an obituary ?



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 01:32 AM
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I have only been a member for a month and a half but I am glued to this place. I love it. It is so great and I want to help preserve it. I think all we need to do is make minor changes and enforce rules… that simple. In time, it will help to make ATS an even more enjoyable experience. Here are some suggestions:

1) New Members can’t author posts until they have reached 30 posts.
(This allows for new members to get their feet wet and pick up on the vibe.)

2) More Moderators

3) Moderators need to close/lock more threads (repeat topics)
(Mods are already pretty good at doing this)

4) Zero Tolerance for people that break the rules
(Two warnings should be given then the third you’re banned and that’s it)

5) Post ban information so people can read and know what not to do. This could be a non-
reply forum.

Clear cut and simple. If people want to remain on this site they will obey the rules because this site is one of kind. There is no where else to go that has such kind and knowledgeable people. That’s my two cents…just trying to be constructive.




[edit on 17-3-2005 by Event Horizon]



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 01:38 AM
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I came across ATS during a time when there were writers that would put together pages of information in a single post. If anyone can remember the one that rode upon dragons. It was a time fraught with endless truth seeking. An era that could only be maintained with low levels of growth. The necessary changes for the growth and sustainability of ATS has brought about the changes from those days.

I cannot perceive the changes to be bad. Certainly it becomes difficult to engage in objective debate. But, look at all the people that have made it this far due to the efforts of growing ATS. They may never have had the chance if ATS wasn't getting top spots on Google. The long standing members that have stuck it out through all the changes find a different level game. A harder level that requires more discernment. More clear thinking. And more objectivity when seeking out the truth through ATS.

No. They have not won. They can't win. Those that know will always know. Those that choose not to look will never know. The truth is in front of everyone's eyes. It's personal subjectivity and bias that blinds us. There may have been those that have been trapped by the extreme amount of political bias here. They lost that battle but the war is not over. They can take off their glasses and look objectively if they choose. It can be done at any time. It's always a choice.

=-=-=-=-=-=

And without further ado I humbly propose OTS.

Old Top Secret

A forum within ATS where old threads are brought back to life. Giving them another opportunity to enlighten. Another chance to Deny Ignorance. It will be a place of quiet nostalgia. A place of political silence. A place of reflection on where we have been so that we can better plot where we are going.

I propose (if possible) that even banned member threads be brought back for the community's perusal. Obviously, not the threads that caused the member to be banned and any editing of threads before repost would be understood.

I see a thread posted twice. One is locked and holds the old debate that ensued. The other is open with the old debate deleted. I see strict rules to keep the old feel of ATS within this bubble. I see longstanding members posting like the old days to provide an example for the community.

The spirit of ATS still lives. It's only been temporarily drowned out by the sheer loudness of political bias. That's all it really amounts to though: noise.



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 02:10 AM
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It's quite funny how even the "skeptic overlord" can make such an Ignorant statement such as "you are being expertly controlled".

It is indeed a sad day when someone who is supposed to be well respected on a 'deny ingorance' forum makes such a wide generalisation.



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 02:13 AM
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Save your puke for those who deserve it thor. SO's statement targets the partisan weenies.

You're not a partisan weenie are you?

Well, are you?



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 02:13 AM
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Well I for one completely disagree with Skepticoverlord this time round. I have been visiting these boards for some times now and find them very usefull. Much of what I have found on these boards I debate with friends and family, from the extreme topic to backed up news articles. I tend to read all the posts and make up my own mind and try not to post that much. I find it a great resource of eye opening information and will visit every day for a read until ATS is no more or me.

to ATS

I saw a forum once ages ago, it had problems with people arguing from the Left to Right so what they did is create two boards, one for Hell & one for Heaven, if your post was ranting it was moved to Hell so you could rant away, I look for the Heaven posts in ATS and dable in a bit of Hell.

[edit on 17-3-2005 by mfourl]



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 02:18 AM
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Polarisation in political issues these days comes from two things: twisted deffinition of patriotism and "collective" mentality.

If you think about it, it all comes to that.

People identify themselves with the goverment and define patriotism as "loving the goverment" and not "loving your country".
So any attack on ruling party becomes a personal attack and the poster responds with another personal insult in the likes of "us vs. them".
It kills individuality, individual thought, and creates very simplified groups. A conflict between them becomes inevitable then.
Just think of what is defined as "anti-american", and you'll see that 99% of it has absolutely nothing to do with american people, but it has a lot to do with what goverment is doing.
When society is divided into groups, and individuals indentified with the whole, then one bad individual in that group is enough to blame the WHOLE group of people, whole nation, whole race, whole religion, for that action. Colective mentality implies collective guilt.

There are certain posters on ATS who deliberately post such posts with extreme generalisations, loaded with hate, collective mentality. I'm not gonna name them here, but I assume they are on many ignore lists.



It is sad really how much this world has changed in the last few years. We are all so focused now on belonging to a certain group, fighting with other groups, we do not pay attention to those who have caused this downfall of society in the first place.

Dark times indeed.
However I do think that there is still hope for ATS. There are a lot of people here who do not fall for this polarisation of society.
It is just that those who do, argue a lot and their bickering goes on for pages and pages of threads. Inteligent constructive posts amongst all that crap are not even noticed.



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 02:49 AM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
There has been some speculation, in this thread, about the nature of the black band adorning the forum logo on AboveTopSecret.com. This, combined with a sad pose from our new super hero mascot has caused some consternation among members. Well, I'm at fault, because I wanted your attention.
 


I can safely say, the most enjoyable and gratifying times in my 30 years as an on-again off-again conspiracy theorist have been here as a member and eventually staff. While I tend not to become involved in much of the discussion lately, I take a great deal of satisfaction of having some small role in helping to make sure discussion and hopefully discovery happen.

These days, however, I mourn.

We fortunate few here in these forums have aspired to be different. A theme has been adopted, "deny ignorance," that for many of us means we try harder. But we we're wrong. We are not different. We are subject to the same shame as everyone else.

We have allowed the sickness of petty political bickering to find a foothold and cause a widespread infection. "Deny Balance" should be the new motto, as right-blaming-left and left-blaming-right is pervasive throughout the board.

Make no mistake, you are being expertly controlled. Even here, in this venue that should be beyond the puppet masters' strings, we have succumbed to the subtle manipulations of thought and reason. Instead of looking in agner toward the puppet masters, you yell at the puppets.

ATS has fallen. We're not out, but we're mortally wounded.

It is indeed, a sad day.[


Please be specific, what exactly do you mean? Are you referring to the possible presence on this board of those who are paid disinformation specialists? Do these people work at home, or in a Dilbert cube to paraphrase Bill O'Reilley and his form of ignorance? Are you referring to the idea that people who post here are not trying hard enough? What exactly is it?

Honestly I used to have an opinion years ago, as a Political Scientist who suddenly found his field under attack during Watergate from different fronts. People could not distinguish Future Studies from "Marxism," or some other concept that would denigrate people who are simply academic, who study all forms of the polity, all forms of government.

During my years at the University of Hawaii I found myself as only a student, being a mediator. One Professor, who discussed "Praxis," or the coordination of theory and practice, objected to another Professor who was funded in World Order Models Design by the Pentagon, by what was known then as ARPA, the Advanced Research Projects Agency. While attending both political science classes, I was able to bring both Professors to the other's classes and make a statement upon what I viewed as a certain "conflict."

Of course at that time I felt as also an Information Sciences student, that I was contemporary with the development of the internet, as being involved at least generally with ARPA under educational design. The topic was as I have stated "World Order Models Design." It was not "Rockefellers design," nor was it anyone else’s, it was our design. Perhaps there was some significance, since we know years later how ARPA now known as DARPA was involved in the development of the internet at that time in the early 1970s.

In some way for who knows what reasons in metaphysics, maybe I have as much claim or even more than Al Gore to be an inventor of the internet. The address of almost all internet sites begins with WWW, or World Wide Web. Get it, something of a "New World Order?"

To make a long story short, my major was Political Science, concentrating upon Future Studies, producing with others the first College Television Course for credit. We interviewed Marshall McCluhan, and others. It is almost too interesting to review it today. My political future studies mentor Jim Dator was also a member of the Club of Rome. I was able to question Limits to Growth author Dennis L. Meadows at the Willows Restaurant in his "mashed potato circuit," speech. So I know that the current version of it, called "Peak Oil," is also quite questionable.

So I hope much of this conquers ignorance on some level, but please don't give up because the White House is probably hiring Dilbert cube people to post what clear thinking people would know is simply nonsense.

[edit on 17-3-2005 by SkipShipman]



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 03:00 AM
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To show a specific example of how necessary rules for growth has changed the nature of ATS I present this post.

This post is from 10-14-2003 and was recently bumped after about a year and a half. This is long before there was a rule for copy-and-pasting of entire articles. I just logged in to find a u2u warning me about the copy-and-paste. Obviously, it was a mistake but that's not the point.

The link to the article is no longer valid. But because it was posted in full here it has been preserved for people to come and read a year or more later.

That is a glimpse into the old ATS. That era is basically dead. I understand what SO is saying.





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