The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm not convinced either.

that's all i was looking for. ''i'm not convinced either''. that's exactly the way i feel about any religious person who tells me they've spoken to god, or jesus, felt god or jesus, and that they are in their life etc. if i don't believe this guy on tv is contacting the dead (however real it seems), then i cannot believe these people telling me they have spoken to god or jesus, or had an 'experience'.

it comes down to the fact that ''i'm not convinced''.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
that's all i was looking for. ''i'm not convinced either''. that's exactly the way i feel about any religious person who tells me they've spoken to god, or jesus, felt god or jesus, and that they are in their life etc. if i don't believe this guy on tv is contacting the dead (however real it seems), then i cannot believe these people telling me they have spoken to god or jesus, or had an 'experience'.

it comes down to the fact that ''i'm not convinced''.

I can totally understand and respect that. Question though, does the dead-talker-guy on tv give instructions on how to do it yourself?

Originally posted by saint4God
I can totally understand and respect that. Question though, does the dead-talker-guy on tv give instructions on how to do it yourself?

well the fact that there are many mediums means there is a certain nack to it, and to fooling people, and to create the illusion they are in some way contacting the dead. thus you can 'learn' to become a medium, the same as you can 'learn' to become christian.

[edit on 28-9-2005 by shaunybaby]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
thus you can 'learn' to become a medium, the same as you can 'learn' to become christian.

Interesting. Well, I have great news for you. There isn't any amount of extra learning that will make a person a Christian. A Christian believes Christ died and was raised, paying the penalty for sin, and purchased a place for us in heaven. It's a free gift to anyone who asks. After that, you're a Christian. If you'd like to learn more about God (as is commonly the case afterwards), then that's certainly possible, but it doesn't make a person "more Christian" than another.

[edit on 28-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Interesting. Well, I have great news for you. There isn't any amount of extra learning that will make a person a Christian. A Christian believes Christ died and was raised, paying the penalty for sin, and purchased a place for us in heaven. It's a free gift to anyone who asks. After that, you're a Christian. If you'd like to learn more about God (as is commonly the case afterwards), then that's certainly possible, but it doesn't make a person "more Christian" than another.

i don't believe that any christian would think him or herself better than one another, even though there is a hierachy within the church but in general most consider themselves equal.

i remember a friend told me that when she was younger all the people at her church, her parents included prayer lots that she would speak in tongues. this same friend has told me that she has been possessed, most recently whilst at bible camp...slight coincidence?

i don't get that about asking god to make your child speak in tongues or the fact that she supposedly was possessed at bible camp. the fact that she was at this camp, made alarm bells ring because i knew it was more to do with her and her christian comrades than god or jesus. it's like she's trying to justify and prove to me why she is right, which is wrong. sure help and guidence is good along the way, but ultimately a person should find jesus and god on their own and not be pushed or forced by people who tell them they speak in tongues or have been possessed.

people who boast about speaking in tongues or being possessed is not what christianity is about. sure not all christians are like this, but it's what you 'see' and 'hear' that you take in as truth. this is why the appeal of the church doesn't appeal to me. maybe i don't want to speak in tongues or be possessed, as i said...that's not what christianity is about. if i find god then great, if not then it was never meant to be.

Sometimes we might see something, really truely believe it, and however much you look and keep checking back...it still looks the same. You can tell me for days, weeks, months and years that the two squares marked 'A' and 'B' aren't the same shade of grey...but it doesn't make it true. Look closure and you may find the answer. Sometimes what you 'see' is not always the truth, or what you thought was real. Look at the squares 'A' and 'B' and ask yourself one question, 'are they the same shade of grey'.




still puzzled...

the reason? maybe i put this because i feel it has some relavence to people who believe they see ghosts, believe they can talk to dead spirits, believe they can talk to god and/or jesus... what you 'believe' isn't always true.

and the eye is christian's way of proving some sort of ID?...think again!

[edit on 28-9-2005 by shaunybaby]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Look at the squares 'A' and 'B' and ask yourself one question, 'are they the same shade of grey'.

Oooh I love it. 'A' clearly looks darker unless you examine 'A' and 'B' independently blocking the rest of the image out, then it's obvious they are the same.

I had to google for more.

Originally posted by spamandham
Oooh I love it. 'A' clearly looks darker unless you examine 'A' and 'B' independently blocking the rest of the image out, then it's obvious they are the same.

it's insane to say the least. even when you know they are they same shade you still can't tell without covering up the rest of the picture. if you go in to a program like paint shop pro both those square's color is 120 120 120...and it's hard to believe because you look at it and they still don't look the same.

so when you see a faith healer on tele, or even in person at a rally, it might look real, or seem like he's doing something, when infact he isn't at all. the same goes for mediums and how real it might seem like he's got it all right about a family's dead relative, but again it's certainly not true. what you 'see' and 'hear' therefore cannot be trusted as truth all the time. you should be questioning what you see and hear. this is why i don't trust a christian who tells me they have heard god or jesus in prayer, or seen 'something' extraordinary, or had an out of body experience that they attribute to god, because at the end of the day it's not neccessarily the truth, they might 'think' it happened, but it doesn't mean it really did.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i don't believe that any christian would think him or herself better than one another, even though there is a hierachy within the church

but in general most consider themselves equal.

Oh good, I'm glad it's seen that way (minus the hierachy apprearance).

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i remember a friend told me that when she was younger all the people at her church, her parents included prayer lots that she would speak in tongues. this same friend has told me that she has been possessed, most recently whilst at bible camp...slight coincidence?

I never really understood this for 2 reasons. 1.) Speaking in tongues in Acts was so that everyone could understand no matter their native tongue. 2.) Did tongues of flame appear above her head? That's how I recall it being written. Was your friend Pentacostal? I don't know many other some extremely 'charasmatic' churches doing this.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i don't get that about asking god to make your child speak in tongues or the fact that she supposedly was possessed at bible camp. the fact that she was at this camp, made alarm bells ring because i knew it was more to do with her and her christian comrades than god or jesus. it's like she's trying to justify and prove to me why she is right, which is wrong. sure help and guidence is good along the way, but ultimately a person should find jesus and god on their own and not be pushed or forced by people who tell them they speak in tongues or have been possessed.

I can agree with that.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
people who boast about speaking in tongues or being possessed is not what christianity is about.

Aha, reason # 3 that I don't understand. Why brag? Inherent need to be special?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
sure not all christians are like this, but it's what you 'see' and 'hear' that you take in as truth. this is why the appeal of the church doesn't appeal to me. maybe i don't want to speak in tongues or be possessed, as i said...that's not what christianity is about.

I feel ya. I can honestly say I've never been possessed, which is nice. I cannot imagine losing control of myself (which is opposite of 2 Timothy 1:7). I have felt things, but never lost control.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
if i find god then great, if not then it was never meant to be.

I hope you do and will do anything I can to help.

My challenge is, I'm directed to who, where, when, why, but usually not how. That's the piece I have to figure out on my own. It's not easy.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
the reason? maybe i put this because i feel it has some relavence to people who believe they see ghosts, believe they can talk to dead spirits, believe they can talk to god and/or jesus... what you 'believe' isn't always true.

I would agree if the God-experience was a 'flash in the pan' event. But getting verification and direction every day? There's a consistency there that doesn't fit an optical illusion. In addition, there are applicable tools (advice) in both difficult situations and everyday life that fit, where you can know for certain it absolutely is the right answer. Not saying a person will know everything, but on issues of morality, it's nice to know definitively what's right and what's wrong. The trouble is when Christians get mixed up in shades of grey areas beyond what is written and beyond what has been communicated to them and then claim it to be the Word. That can be a big problem. That's ego taking over, not Spirit. I'm sure I've been guilty of it, but try to think quickly and speak slowly. Accompanied with prayer and reading the Book, it becomes clearer which is opinion and which is actual truth.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
and the eye is christian's way of proving some sort of ID?...think again!

Do you believe you have to disregard evolution to be Christian?

people who boast about speaking in tongues or being possessed is not what christianity is about

At least you realize that point shauny. The only ones able to speak in tongues and understand such were the disciples of Jesus. All others who do such are what I consider the great foolers of the world.

and the eye is christian's way of proving some sort of ID?...think again!

I won't go into the Christianity part, however the eye is the avenue of understanding another individual's inner soul, and the power that GOD has to keep everything up and running.

On this I could have a very long discussion with you. If you care and are open minded enough for the understanding.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
it's insane to say the least. even when you know they are they same shade you still can't tell without covering up the rest of the picture. if you go in to a program like paint shop pro both those square's color is 120 120 120...

Hehe, I was thinking of doing the same, but looks like you beat me to it. I can see how that's possible, so I'll trust and believe that it's true. I have faith that this is the case. I could test it but I'm sure I'd be wrong if I said otherwise.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
and it's hard to believe because you look at it and they still don't look the same.

Being a fan of other optical illusions in the past, I guess it's easy for me to believe.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so when you see a faith healer on tele, or even in person at a rally, it might look real, or seem like he's doing something, when infact he isn't at all. the same goes for mediums and how real it might seem like he's got it all right about a family's dead relative, but again it's certainly not true. what you 'see' and 'hear' therefore cannot be trusted as truth all the time. you should be questioning what you see and hear.

I'm good with that. I don't believe in "roll over and die" tactics, not even in a game where I'm losing badly (like Age of Empires II set on difficult). Awesome game on LAN. I have my spouse and friend on & we team up against the computer:

Originally posted by shaunybaby
this is why i don't trust a christian who tells me they have heard god or jesus in prayer, or seen 'something' extraordinary, or had an out of body experience that they attribute to god, because at the end of the day it's not neccessarily the truth, they might 'think' it happened, but it doesn't mean it really did.

From a 3rd party perspective I know what you mean. If I went back to me B.C. and told myself what I would believe in the near future, I'd blame everything but the idea that it's true. After a while though, you run out of possibilities to blame because they start to discount themselves with additional information over time. For example, the first time I'd heard God, I'd happened to be washing my face and it shook me up quite a bit. I began to get worried about my mental health or that I was ambitiously reaching for something to happen (what they call self-fulfilling prophecy). I didn't want any mental health issues or self-fulfilling prophecy, but accepted either as the more likely possibility. The problem with both is that I didn't understand what was being said and never lost a moment of awareness. I considered the words, but certainly kept open the possibility of 'me doing it'. Then, after 4 more times (some during/after prayer, some not) then you have to acknowledge that it's not one of these 'flash in the pan' events. I've checked the Book, there's nothing out of alignment (in fact, it's very in-line) but it's personal. In other words, the advice given to me probably wouldn't do the person next to me any good since they're going through different situations. A personal relationship with God is customized, if you will, because he loves each of us as individuals.

[edit on 29-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
The only ones able to speak in tongues and understand such were the disciples of Jesus. All others who do such are what I consider the great foolers of the world.

Yet for many who "speak in tongues", their personal god experience is just as real to them as saint's is to him.

Personal experience can be deceiving. Your inner voice can be mistaken for the voice of god. An emotional high can be confused with indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The ability to interpolate known moral dictums can be confused as divine guidance. Every day events can get interpreted as "miracles". Selective evidence reinforces the idea that prayer works, etc.

Just a link this time. To a secular news paper. Read it if you dare, refute it if you can. Most importantly, don't judge until you've read it.

www.spokesmanreview.com...

Originally posted by spamandham
Personal experience can be deceiving. Your inner voice can be mistaken for the voice of god. An emotional high can be confused with indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The ability to interpolate known moral dictums can be confused as divine guidance. Every day events can get interpreted as "miracles". Selective evidence reinforces the idea that prayer works, etc.

I'm sure anyone can "explain away" anything if they really wanted. What I'm saying is there are plenty of verfications and cross-referencing to validate these things. Maybe not immediately, but they come.

JJ, interesting article. I've not experienced these things so cannot say "yes" or "no" that this is what's happening. I can tell you about the Holy Spirit that I know. This force is not so small as to just heal the body to keep us alive on earth for a few more years. If this occurs so that others may believe, then great! But I think it's very limiting to say that's the full capability. The power of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. Now THAT is a miracle!

[edit on 29-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by junglejake
Just a link this time. To a secular news paper. Read it if you dare, refute it if you can. Most importantly, don't judge until you've read it.

www.spokesmanreview.com...

Spontaneous cancer remission rates are about 1 in 60,000. The only impressive story in the article is the first one, and there is not enough information to tell if this was even a spontaneous remission or if she was still using other forms of treatment.

We can not simply dismiss the possibility of fraud either. James Randi has unmasked numerous faith healing outright frauds and documents these cases in his book "The Faith Healers".

True to form, the article does not discuss those who went to these ceneters and were not healed - a clear attempt at using selective evidence to prove a point.

If faith healing is real, it will withstand scientific scrutiny. Yet in the few studies that have been performed, faith healing has about the same efficacy as placebos.

Tell you what, how about if you read and try to refute these "miracles" from other religions as well.

Religious Miracles

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm sure anyone can "explain away" anything if they really wanted.

If there is a plausible natural explanation, then there is no justification for presuming a non-natural explanation.

Originally posted by saint4God
What I'm saying is there are plenty of verfications and cross-referencing to validate these things.

No there aren't.

I suppose I should have expected that from a conspiracy site. The evidence not presented must exist, and therefore, because it must exist, it disproves the evidence presented in this article.

Here are some audio testamonies of healings, and Here's pages and pages of written testamonies of people healed in this one place in Spokane. Now they're opening up all over the place. I'm going to a church that will be opening a healing room soon, and I'll keep y'all posted. Amazing what the power of the Holy Spirit can do, and sad that we seem to have forgotten the promises in the Bible these days...

Originally posted by junglejake
I suppose I should have expected that from a conspiracy site. The evidence not presented must exist, and therefore, because it must exist, it disproves the evidence presented in this article.

That's right JJ, even though every single formal inquiry into these types of healings has shown they are hype and fraud, we should just dismiss that knowledge in this case because this is the one you accept uncritically.