The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
The only reason modern Christianity emphasises sacrifice theology over the humanity of Jesus is because the followers of Paul found their way into politics and wiped everyone else out as heretics.

Actually no. It was gotten from what Christ said. Luke 24:45 ...

Saint, you do realize you are reading only the texts and the versions of the texts that the church of Rome approved don't you?

There were (and still are in some cases) competing versions of the canonical writings, as well as numerous early christian writings that didn't make it into the church of Rome's Bible.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the great falling away was actually the falling away from the humanity of Jesus?

go round and round. We've had this discussion before.

So, I guess I'll say it again. My belief isn't based on just a Book. I'm a lot more hard-headed that that

Originally posted by saint4God
go round and round. We've had this discussion before.

So, I guess I'll say it again. My belief isn't based on just a Book. I'm a lot more hard-headed that that

When "god" pointed you to the Bible, did he tell you to stop there?

Originally posted by spamandham
When "god" pointed you to the Bible, did he tell you to stop there?

Nope, but He let me know that nothing that is aligned with Him contradicts Him or it. It's the "living" word, that is, not just words on a page but something to use as application everyday. From that truth will be a lot easier to identify. "Test the spirits. Any spirit that..." oops! Starting to quote again. Forgot that was only popular for those who believe .

Originally posted by spamandham
There were (and still are in some cases) competing versions of the canonical writings, as well as numerous early christian writings that didn't make it into the church of Rome's Bible.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the great falling away was actually the falling away from the humanity of Jesus?

Yes, truly ironic...but not so far-fetched. First, we have to understand the times Jesus/Yeshua was born into. A time when the Hassidaeans were split into two groups.


One, called the Herodian Sadducees and Pharisees, collaborated with the Roman conquerers and eventually joined to become the followers of Rabbinic Judaism.

The other was made up of Purist Sadducees known as Zadokites and they were non-collaborators, wishing to drive the Romans, with their hated Herod, back to Rome. These became, eventually, the Celtic Church Remnant, Islam, and the Jewish Christian Church.

As an Essene, Jesus/Yeshua the Nazarean joined the 'Opposition to the Establishment' and was allied with the Ebionim, the Zealots and dissident Pharisees.

There was good reason for Jesus/Yeshua to do that, because Herod held the throne which
rightfully belonged to him.

This original group of Nazarean disciples had firsthand knowledge of what Yeshua had taught and stood for, and were holding on to the original vision. The non-nazarean "Jewish-Christians" and the "Gentile Christians, did not have or want the firsthand knowledge possessed by the original Nazareans, but instead prefered creating their own myths concerning the Christ. This led to conflict and eventual persecution of the Nazareans.

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Originally posted by saint4God
go round and round. We've had this discussion before.

So, I guess I'll say it again. My belief isn't based on just a Book. I'm a lot more hard-headed that that

Arent we all.



The book brings the news. That is when you hear it.
Then you believe it through faith.
Then when you hang onto that tiny bit of faith, you will see.


Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

---
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.





I would say there are other writings that we could have had in the bible that prolly got destroyed over time. Perhaps there is even a few books that we dont need in order to understand the gospel. That church of rome you mention has 12 more books in their bible then I have in mine. The mission was to get the news out. It must be preached to every tribe /nation/tongue. The ends of the earth.
That is what matters.

Jesus looked at the people and said the harvest is ready and the workers are few.

Thats what matters

Originally posted by jake1997
The mission was to get the news out. It must be preached to every tribe /nation/tongue. The ends of the earth.
That is what matters.

Are you saying it doesn't matter what news was delivered, as long as news was delivered? There was no early concensus on even the most basic tenets of what you would call Christianity.

The Bible you use is the Roman Bible with a few books torn out of it. Many Protestants have begun to question why those books were removed. But even if you don't question that, you must at least realize that the books in the Bible you have are a subset of those chosen by the church of Rome, and for the books you accept, they are the versions chosen by Rome. The originals do not exist, and we know there were competing (and significantly different) versions in the early church.

Given that Jesus (if he lived) would have spoken Aramaic, and given two versions of the same book, one in Aramaic and one in Greek, which would you expect to be closer to the original thoughts and teachings about Jesus?

In my opinion, Paul was the first anti-Christian. The Nicene Creed was based on his interpretations of Jesus and he would hear no other. Paul was the first heretic of the Christian church and his message is known as the 'Pauline Heresy', which is easily Googled.

Paul's theology was based on the seperation of humanity from God, something which I cannot accept. It flies in the face of an 'all-encompassing God' and regales that Deity to some 'other place'. Since I believe that God is everything, I cannot seperate humanity from God.

The Nicine Creed, as established in Nicaea in 325Ad by the First Ecumenical Council, had, as its purpose, the establishment of religious unity within the Roman empire for political reasons benefitting a pagan emporer by the name of Constantine. It was not interested in what Jesus had actually said, nor what his actions were...this group was interested only in expedience.




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Originally posted by masqua
It was not interested in what Jesus had actually said, nor what his actions were...this group was interested only in expedience.

Okay then, since we're excluding the whole Bible here, what do you say Jesus said and did?

To start off, I am a lapsed Catholic. I lapsed for personal reasons of my own, and leave it at that. I still follow the morals of what it means to be a Catholic, and I will not be bashed into believing anything otherwise. However, I found that I was incompatiable to the Catholic faith. I was restless, I had questions, and I was slowly driven mad by them.

For instance, the Adam and Eve story? Why was Eve made out of Adam's rib? She was most likely made out of Adam's funny bone. Plus you'd have to agree something. If Eve was made of a rib, and is the ancestor of which all mankind are sprung, does that mean we're all just having sex with our own spare ribs? Thought not. We're all human and made equal. But some are more equal then others. Hence the gigantic purple cat theory. The gigantic purple cats are the ones who are so willing to know the Bible off by heart to show "piety" Hence they get first dibs on the seats next to the big man. Isn't there another word for that? Obsession? Fanaticism?

I, like most people follow Christian ideals, yet I don't need the message regurgitated to me by a priest. I do not remember the endless psalms or gospals, but I remember how they made me feel. I skipped the ending though. In my view, fire is fire. Be it above or below. Come to think of it. That's another thing I've had trouble believing. Heaven and Hell.

Whenever I've read a post on this "Anti Christian Conspiracy", I sort of felt alienated. Why? Because of what you may do in this life, and by your deeds you will be allocated to Heaven, which was supposed to be quite a nice place i've heard, or Hell, a bad place were you will burn in endless torment forever and ever amen. Here's my idea about this whole Heaven and Hell malarky, This isn't a test! Its so much more then that. Isn't life worth living in the moment then worrying where the hell you might end up? YOU ONLY HAVE ONE! (unless you are a gigantic purple cat, you have nine) It depends on your viewpoint, but we're all gonna die. If there is a God, that's fine. If there is no God, that's fine too. I just wanna live, as should you all.

Originally posted by MacDonaghby your deeds you will be allocated to Heaven, which was supposed to be quite a nice place i've heard, or Hell, a bad place were you will burn in endless torment forever and ever amen.

No one is saved by works.
Its by grace through faith.

You repent, forsake all sin
get filled with the Holy Spirit
@ that point you officially have eternal life... John 17:3 says eternal life is...
to KNOW God...
Its not just a matter of making it into heaven.

Its a matter of KNOWING God for eternity.
starting the moment YAHSHUA (Jesus) baptizes you with the Holy Spirit
read Luke 3, John 3 and Acts 1-2

The gospel: thekingiscomingtoreign.blogspot.com...

Saint4God
Since when am I excluding the whole bible? I am excluding nothing at all but the seperation of God from humanity.

Look to the scrolls found at Qumran to find out what Jesus was teaching, for he was, after all, an Essene.

After the war of 66-74 AD and the fall of Masada, the movement which Jesus and his brothers were involved in broke up, most left for Egypt and eventualy became the Celtic Church Remnant. The rest of the Zadokites became either the Jewish Christian Church or the founders of Islam through Decapolis.

Pauls group gained their ascention through the war of 66-74 AD as well, taking the middle road so appealing to Constantine in his desire to end conflict.


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Originally posted by masqua
In my opinion, Paul was the first anti-Christian.

The bible seems to indicate that your opinion is just that. Opinion. In the NT, the best case that I can find for the first 'antichrist' or 'antichristian' would be the pharisees.

Paul's theology was based on the seperation of humanity from God, something which I cannot accept.

Me neither.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Nicine Creed, as established in Nicaea in 325Ad by the First Ecumenical Council, had, as its purpose, the establishment of religious unity within the Roman empire for political reasons benefitting a pagan emporer by the name of Constantine. It was not interested in what Jesus had actually said, nor what his actions were...this group was interested only in expedience.




.

Im lost as to why this matters.
Paul had nothing to do with those people or their motives.
Paul was beheaded for Christ in Rome, by Rome.

Originally posted by seawater999

Originally posted by MacDonaghby your deeds you will be allocated to Heaven, which was supposed to be quite a nice place i've heard, or Hell, a bad place were you will burn in endless torment forever and ever amen.

No one is saved by works.
Its by grace through faith.

You repent, forsake all sin
get filled with the Holy Spirit
@ that point you officially have eternal life... John 17:3 says eternal life is...
to KNOW God...
Its not just a matter of making it into heaven.

Its a matter of KNOWING God for eternity.
starting the moment YAHSHUA (Jesus) baptizes you with the Holy Spirit
read Luke 3, John 3 and Acts 1-2

The gospel: thekingiscomingtoreign.blogspot.com...

Yeah yeah. I heard it before. It's a great way to say my religion is the only right religion and if you don't believe in it(have "faith") you will burn in hell. Doesn't matter how good or bad a person you were. Go ahead, kill as many people as you can. Then, if you accept Christ, your going to heaven. I know that it is unlikely that a person capable of certain atrocities would ever seek Christ, but I am sure some have. And to say that he will be in heaven, while I, a person who hasn't hurt anyone and has helped plenty of people, but I can't swallow the truth or have "faith", will enjoy a nice toasty ever-lasting one-way trip to the great lake of fire is just crazy talk you sillies.

Not to be a hair-splitter here but Paul (originally called Saul) actually WAS the worst enemy of the early Christian church and hunted Christians with a passion! So, he was in fact Anti-Christian.

I think it would be interesting to talk about whether or not Paul's hatred of the early church could have been a driving personal force for him to basically become that church's leader and foundational teacher by way of a secret take-over!

Did Paul hijack Christianity?

Originally posted by Donegal

Originally posted by seawater999

Originally posted by MacDonaghby your deeds you will be allocated to Heaven, which was supposed to be quite a nice place i've heard, or Hell, a bad place were you will burn in endless torment forever and ever amen.

No one is saved by works.
Its by grace through faith.

You repent, forsake all sin
get filled with the Holy Spirit
@ that point you officially have eternal life... John 17:3 says eternal life is...
to KNOW God...
Its not just a matter of making it into heaven.

Its a matter of KNOWING God for eternity.
starting the moment YAHSHUA (Jesus) baptizes you with the Holy Spirit
read Luke 3, John 3 and Acts 1-2

The gospel: thekingiscomingtoreign.blogspot.com...

Yeah yeah. I heard it before. It's a great way to say my religion is the only right religion and if you don't believe in it(have "faith") you will burn in hell. Doesn't matter how good or bad a person you were. Go ahead, kill as many people as you can. Then, if you accept Christ, your going to heaven. I know that it is unlikely that a person capable of certain atrocities would ever seek Christ, but I am sure some have. And to say that he will be in heaven, while I, a person who hasn't hurt anyone and has helped plenty of people, but I can't swallow the truth or have "faith", will enjoy a nice toasty ever-lasting one-way trip to the great lake of fire is just crazy talk you sillies.

you did NOT read what I wrote. you did NOT check out the link either.

Doesn't matter how good or bad a person you were.

I did NOT say that^

# 1: God requires repentance
# 2: God requires obedience... (which requires GRACE: the POWER of God... and willingness to submit to the Holy Spirit)

#1:

Ezekiel 18
4Behold, all souls are mine

[...]

20 [...] the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a NEW HEART and a NEW SPIRIT: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore REPENT, and LIVE.

#2

Ezek 36: 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I WILL put my spirit within you, and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Originally posted by jake1997The bible seems to indicate that your opinion is just that. Opinion. In the NT, the best case that I can find for the first 'antichrist' or 'antichristian' would be the pharisees.

Strange, then, isn't it? As Jesus/Yeshua was opposed to Roman occupation and Herod on the throne of the Holy Land, he allied himself with the very people you call anti-Christian...the Dissident Pharisees.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thanks for the reminiscences of my childhood. My grandfather was a wonderfully dour Calvinist who loved the LAW according to Romans. I'm wondering why you didn't include;

Rom 8: 33 Who shall lay anything against God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

That particular passage appeals more to my interpretation and I'm wondering how it survived scrutiny.

also;
Rom 7: 22 For I delight in the Law of God in the inward man.

Paul had nothing to do with those people or their motives.
Paul was beheaded for Christ in Rome, by Rome.

Paul laid down the foundations of his ministry first by being allied by the Herodian Pharisees and then turning from them to join the 'resistance' Zadokites and the Nazareans under Jesus and James. For that transgression, he earned his disfavour from Rome. It didn't take Paul long, after joining the Zadokites, to once again turn away from Jesus and James to begin the 'Middle Road' of Pauline Christians as we now know it.

.



[edit on 17-11-2005 by masqua]

I find it interesting that you pointed out the Heaven or Hell reference but not the "This is not a test" rant. With all due respect, I seriously doubt that we were all put here to worry about who's going where? You gigantic purple cat! I wish I could say some passages of the Bible off the top of my head. Then I'd get to sit beside God and we could laugh at all those who didn't memorise their passages, burning forever and ever and ever. I dare not think of myself as graceful. Matter of fact, I do believe in God. But not in your idea of God. I wouldn't go to war over my God, He wouldn't be too pleased. And I sincerely doubt that God would have wanted all of us fighting over well, namely Him. Hell, anyone heard of sharing? And about this conspiracy everyone is harping about? There isn't one. Creationism is bs and you all know it. And to all the gigantic purple cats, stop it. To prove your that faithful is just rubbing it in faces who cannot be. He who is first is last, and he who is last will be first. Well, I think it goes like that. Don't correct me, purple cats.

nevermind.

I thought this conversations was somewhere other than where it is.....or at least going that way

Me sorry. Am bad.

Tell me something Jake, why do you think there is a conspiracy against christanity? Is it in America were Christianity is being let down? Or is it the "Liberal" media backing all those homos, and killing babies that is radically undermining Christiaity?