The Doty Files – What is the Real Truth?

The lack of evidence to support Tim's assertion that Doty attended Lazar's raid in 2002/2003 needs to be addressed by Tim himself. After all, this was his headline claim when he first mentioned he was publishing Doty's file. It *seems* as if he was staring at the document in question.

So why redact it?

Did Tricky Dicky 'get' to him?

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

Like I said I might have missed it. There are around 300 pages in those files.

But I don't really see any reason for Tricky Dicky intervening. Whether Doty was there or wasn't there is of no real consequence.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: ConfusedBrit

Like I said I might have missed it. There are around 300 pages in those files.

But I don't really see any reason for Tricky Dicky intervening. Whether Doty was there or wasn't there is of no real consequence.

The will to live starts decaying after the half-way mark, before skimming sets in. I doubt, though, that we BOTH missed it, and Tim's lack of highlighting the document in question upon publication may speak volumes.

Doty's UFO background was Tim's sexy bait for Dicky being at the raid at all. Most likely it was a standard raid, disconnected from the S-4 and Element 115 story (as was the latest raid). As you say, Doty's presence is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but it would have created a degree of irony. At the very least.

PS: Such a document would be to Doty's benefit since he's embracing ufology again after retiring from his NM post (although he seemed to be moonlighting for Puthoff beforehand, with potential fingers in the Scientology-flavoured SERPO et al). Unless, of course, it confirmed the police were seeking poisonous substances rather than 'stolen' material from S-4. Gotta keep the myth-flag flying.

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

i thought this recent raid was because Bob was shipping things he shouldn't to people via the internet and across state lines.

originally posted by: CardDown

He’s still spreading lies about the case, using it to bolster his own reputation.

Interesting reading mate - what a dick.

There's a relevant post here about Doty and James Oberg working out of Kirtland AFB and wondered if anyone knows for sure that it was Doty masquerading as 'Falcon' on the TV programme ''UFO Cover Up Live' (also starring Oberg).

Reply to Willtell

The idea that AFOSI would disseminate disinformation to Bennewitz in order to cover up some secrets at a base makes little sense.

I'm very interested in this take.

State actors that are having their spy sat's messed with don't need a "crack pot who saw a light show"s help figuring out what's going on. If this 'secret project' the AF was interested in protecting could be unmasked by some jack-off opening their window blinds, then it's not going to be contained by some other jack-off running a two bit con job. The opposite, as you point out, is true. Do we know about Bennewitz (or said program?) at all without Doty's machinations?

I need to read up on where this explanation (RE:coverup op) originates from.

originally posted by: penroc3
a reply to: ConfusedBrit

i thought this recent raid was because Bob was shipping things he shouldn't to people via the internet and across state lines.

The most recent raid concerned an alleged order for potentially toxic chemicals and the search for associated paperwork. Michigan State Police were investigating the 2015 death of Janel Struzl due to "thallium toxicity" - a substance that Bob sells, but it must be stressed that Bob is NOT a murder suspect. Further details here.

The shipping offence you describe relates to the 2003 raid which resulted in Mr and Mrs Lazar being charged with "aiding and abetting the introduction into interstate commerce, banned hazardous substances".

According to Bob and Jezza Doorbell, of course, the recent raid was naturally related to Element 115, but you have to admire their sheer nerve for indirectly exploiting the circumstances surrounding a tragic real-life death for shoddy UFOtainment purposes. Not cool.

originally posted by: Chompstyle

I'm very interested in this take.

It's an eternal conundrum, isn't it? Using fake UFO stories as a cover for a military base's activities when, of course, there is the risk of attracting far MORE attention as a result.

Isn't that the height of stupidity, or am I missing something? This is not directed at Doty per se, rather the general notion of UFOs as a cover story - which seems an accepted activity that we take for granted within ufology, despite the inherent absurdity.

originally posted by: Willtell
When they do spread this false distorted information, they always use a template from one of what they feel are the crazies within ufology. In other words, they rarely concoct these tales from original thinking of their own.

I've often felt that if an "expert" is propounding a theory or telling a story that fits neatly into the common UFO mythology, they're full of crap. That's because as far as I can see, real UFO stuff often has a kind of ridiculousness to it that just doesn't fit our notions of logic and reason. If you find yourself thinking, "Well, that doesn't make any sense," then you're on the right track. But the minute somebody start attributing human logic and motivations to supposed aliens -- especially the standard "grey" type -- then I know they're just fabricating a story for whatever reason. Could be to steer the curious away from secret government projects. I don't know. Could a single person be that much of a threat to an entire project that you'd have to sandbag them hard in some way? Maybe. Again, my BS meter starts clicking.

a reply to: Chompstyle

State actors that are having their spy sat's messed with don't need a "crack pot who saw a light show"s help figuring out what's going on....

It's a lot more complicated than just that. Paul Bennewitz ran a company that had contracts with NASA and the US DoD called Thunder Scientific. He had a direct view from his home of Kirtland AF Base.

Bennewitz had also accidentally tapped into what was supposed to have been a secure military communications system at the base. He believed they were alien messages and Doty played his part in reinforcing that belief. As did a couple of other characters who provided him with a computer to help as well. Obviously the fact that Bennewitz was receiving and attempting to decode these signals was a potential national security problem. Although the method of investigation was highly irregular.

There are some good books "Project Beta - Greg Bishop" or "X=Descending - Chris Lambright" which specifically deal with the case if you want to delve deep into it. Much of the lore that still infests ufology today began back then. So much so that many Americans treat it as a reality.

a reply to: Chompstyle


Greg Bishop who is a sober ufologist, comparatively speaking, wrote this book --Project Beta-- on the Bennewitz affair.

Proje ct Beta

It is a great read IMO.

Lt. Tim is not holding back anything on the Lazar raid by Doty. I thought maybe he had some juicy story that he was saving for a blog.

Others seem to have interpreted it as a dark conspiratorial accusation against him!!! Such is the world of ufology.

But it looks like he simply caught the TTSA bug of announcing and overhyping things....Something he didn't do second time around.


Here's what he said in reply to someone misinterpreting this as an 'accusation'.

People are so silly... they could have just ask [someone did earlier this afternoon & he ignored it]. No I didn’t withhold anything. Doty was commander of the bomb squad when Lazar was raided in NM. CPSC’s file show them requesting the NMSP Bomb Squad because Lazar sold illegal fireworks....

And the return page should show them telling me by NM state law they don’t release negative files through FOIA. So any complaints wouldn’t be included.

Twitter

As he couldn't be bothered pointing out the specific page that references Lazar or his company I can't be bothered looking for it. There literally was nothing to see here. I think we should applaud the work put into acquiring the information even if it turned up nothing exciting.

However Doty's wider role in ufology should never be ignored.

One thing I want to say, in regard to the fact that we really don’t know all the facts of these histories we read in books and on the internet.

Thanks to mm for pointing out a piece I never read (though the book looks familiar) but might indulge soon, the Lambright book he mentions.

Now, one thing must be said. Although, I’ve never gone for the (aliens are demons in caves) ufology school of thought, nevertheless what Bennewitz saw in the dark night in NM may have been something strange, weird or even otherworldly...and certainly, possibly some kind of black technology.

I don’t think we really know for sure. Maybe this book mm speaks about can clear some of that up.

One thing we do know for a certainty, is that we can't believe a word out of Doty’s mouth

a reply to: Willtell

"X-Descending" is available as an E-book only. The usual retailers will sell a copy for around $10 (US) and features photos of the UFOs above Kirtland.



It's a long time since I read it and I still don't think it gives a definitive answer. But before buying it there are lots of podcasts and radio shows on Youtube featuring Chris Lambright talking about the book from around 2012 onwards. That should give you a taster of what it's all about.

What I am convinced about is that during the late 1970s- 1980s, meddling in the UFO community stateside hit new heights of creativity. Before then cases like Roswell and the Battle of LA were little more than dull footnotes..

I think an interesting aspect to look at, would be the months & years that; espionage was an issue, development of black projects that are now known, black budget increases and the amount of disinformation that occured in those time frames.

I'm no betting man but I would guess there would be a correlation of some kind if it was investigated.

a reply to: mirageman

Good thread! Tnx

a reply to: Blue Shift

You know, I kind of agree with you.

As much as I sound like a ” logic” guy its more self-deception, and deceit that's is worse than crazy, illogical stories or beliefs, inside of ufology.

Of course, logic is good as far as it goes. But conditioned thinking and what people think is logical is often the enemy of truth

a reply to: mirageman

Thanks mm!

In some form, I have to check the guy out.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: mirageman

The idea that AFOSI would disseminate disinformation to Bennewitz in order to cover up some secrets at a base makes little sense.

Which is precisely why Doty has always been a self serving liar. None of what he says is logical and he's only in it to sew disinformation and make a buck for himself off of the gullibility of people.

He's a very smarmy man and not a good liar.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Willtell

"X-Descending" is available as an E-book only. The usual retailers will sell a copy for around $10 (US) and features photos of the UFOs above Kirtland.

It's a long time since I read it and I still don't think it gives a definitive answer. But before buying it there are lots of podcasts and radio shows on Youtube featuring Chris Lambright talking about the book from around 2012 onwards. That should give you a taster of what it's all about.

What I am convinced about is that during the late 1970s- 1980s, meddling in the UFO community stateside hit new heights of creativity. Before then cases like Roswell and the Battle of LA were little more than dull footnotes..

those photos could show what is known as blooming, when a pulsed high power laser is used in the open air it will heat the air up and cause a strange effect on the air via ionization

high speed laser comms were pretty new back then and the 'ufo' Doty and Paul saw up on the mesa were also something for comms that used a pulsed laser so its not shocking he saw lights in the sky, even Doty said he thought they stumbled onto something untill he was told by the AF that it was part of special forces training

a reply to: 1point92AU


Oh, on the contrary, if its any good he can do its lying.

That’s NOT a compliment; meaning he’s a good deceiver

And I understand what you mean: his lies aren’t believable.

One thing, though, Doty has done and one can say it’s a good thing in a sense.

He has united what is usually divergent opinions here. We all agree he’s a reprobate of the first order.