Woman Charged With First Degree Murder Of Fetus In California

a reply to: dawnstar

The only way to help an addict is through inpatient treatment and an addict is no longer capable of making rational decisions themselves.

I'm not sure why you would bring up the father in this topic? We are discussing an addicted mother who had three addicted kids at her hands and one she killed. We are not even talking about women in general.

All addicts, except those who have hit bottom and are ready to quit, would say they are not addicts, just like prisoners in prisons are all innocent. No the treatment facilities are not filled with non-addicts wrongly put there.

Any meth addict, male or female needs treatment even if it has to be court ordered. If society and their families don't give a damn about them they are enablers.

What is your solution?

a reply to: Blaine91555

Fine, then court order and every meth addict that surfaces.
And I bring up the dads since if they are also meth addicts mom probably isnt gonna stay clean for long if she has contact with him.
The problem isnt that we have babies born addicted to drugs, it's that we have a bunch of addicts period.

But, here's my problem.. there are other things women might chose to do that endangers the unborn.. for me, I had my doctor yelling at me not to pick up my other kids neither of which were old enough for that to be even possible for me, and it wasn't like there was someone constantly around to do if for me. So, what is the difference between me picking up my kids and the addict when it comes to risking the baby's life? Are we gonna forcibly hospitalize women in situations like mine? Then who would have been around to take care of the living breathing kids? Foster care?? Not only a traumatic experience for kids but also if yous dont mind that solution to protect the unborn child then why arent we providing the cheaper option and helping the mother get and pay for someone to assist her? Who knows maybe we would have less addicts if we worried more about making life easier for those who are finding hard to begin with.

Arguing for guilt by association is not justice.

I have nothing more to contribute here.

Be understanding and civil with each other and argue logically and factually.

a reply to: dawnstar

I believe that is the fourth or fifth post you have made trying to excuse meth addiction by comparing it to something more mundane. There is a huge difference between falling down accidentally and choosing to use methamphetamines while pregnant. There is a huge difference between caring for one's other kids and using methamphetamines during pregnancy. I have lost count of the other comparisons you have tried to make.

In essence, this woman is not only addicted to meth, but she is pushing it onto others. If a person engages in the distribution of an illegal drug to others, we call them a "drug pusher" and subject them to harsh penalties. But somehow if the person doing the pushing is doing it to her own unborn child, that's OK?

After some consideration, I personally believe that illegal drug distribution to others is the proper charge here. She did exactly that. Her children never made the decision to take meth; it was given to them by their own mother, through her own body. Where is the difference between that and a guy on the street injecting kids with meth? I see precious little.

Such a charge would also stop the issue of having more meth-addicted children. If she's behind bars, she can't be getting pregnant. If she wants to get pregnant, she needs to stay off the meth; if she wants to do the meth, she needs to not get pregnant and push it onto her children. If she does both anyway, she needs to lose the ability to do either.

It's not justice, but true justice would involve her living a lifetime of having the exact same difficulties her children have due to her actions, for each child. That's three lifetimes and one death from overdose, and we don't have the ability to administer that kind of justice. It is prevention of further crimes, however, and that has to be enough until we learn how to kill criminals multiple times.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Ya, theres a difference, and if it remained in sphere of drug addicted women ignoring the welfare, I wouldn't care what happened to the addict quite frankly.
But, it's not remaining in that sphere. Not only has it extended into those ordinary activities like those I have mentioned by "activist" district attorneys, judges, and law enforcement, it has landed women in jail when there really was very little evidence that there was any drug usage while they were pregnant.
And, word of warning, there's behavior among men that can cause more harm to their future offspring than the danged poppy seeds that got one lady in trouble.

Actually by definition she could be charged with second degree murder and I would agree with that.

Extreme Indifference to Human Life - The third main type of second-degree murder occurs when a victim dies as a result of the perpetrator's extreme indifference to the value of human life. Generally speaking, extreme indifference means an utter disregard of the possibility that an act will kill someone.

So she did that, and it's provable in court.

But riddle me this, if she is convicted and jailed then what does that say about abortions at 8.5 months in New York state when they happen, seems like modern human justice is not balanced, when suddenly the courts and law say both the abortionist and the mother can do it legally.

a reply to: dawnstar

You know, in a conversation it's not possible to have a discussion with someone so obviously emotionally invested. I'll politely back out of this one.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
Here is the article

California Woman Charged With Murder Of Fetus

With abortion being legal there it seems 1st degree murder is a very hypocritical charge, criminal negligence causing death seems more appropriate.
She was taking drugs and this was massive negligence on her part for sure, and she should be charged with something, but if she is being charged with 1st degree murder, I would argue every abortion of healthy babies should have the same charge.

Have fun discussing this one, as it defies logical justice, and it makes both pro-choice and pro-life people mad either way.

Good, I hope not only is this women charged... but the charges expand unto every healthcare provider who provides an abortion.

Abortion is murder.

Want to have sex without a kid? Swallow a morning after pill.

a reply to: dawnstar

No one here is talking about prosecuting anyone for anything except the subject of the thread for killing her unborn child with meth.

And, word of warning, there's behavior among men that can cause more harm to their future offspring than the danged poppy seeds that got one lady in trouble.

That might deserve an agreement, except for one thing:

Methamphetamines do not come from poppy seeds.

TheRedneck

a reply to: EternalSolace

You realize how many women die during complications from pregnancy and birth.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

That would probably be a more appropriate charge..
Or maybe, causing a death while in the process of committing a felony.
It just isnt 1st degree murder.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Oh, excuse me. That's that other class of drugs that our population is addicted to that the govt uses as a cash cow for their black ops.
Another example, for some reason, suicide is illegal in this country. Why, I dont know, ain't like your gonna prosecute the dead person. But, have you ever heard of anyone being charge with attempted murder after trying to commit suicide? Are they ever charged with anything? No, we hospitalize them and get them some mental health counseling. That is, unless they happen to be pregnant, then they might find themselves in a jail cell instead.

In this case, is the crime that the lady is an addict, or is it her actions that she took while she is pregnant. If it's the first then she should be given the same treatment as any other addict. If it's her actions that she took while she was pregnant, then we have a problem since the examples I have given plus many more could be claimed to have caused a miscarriage..

a reply to: Blaine91555

The problem is probably more that I am the opposite. It's not me holding up pictures of cute happy babies in discussions involving early stage miscarriages and abortions, which seems to be what happens in just about every thread involving abortion as the prolife drive the discussion to late term pregnancy. How long did it take for abortion to be brought up in this discussion? And, most people dont really have that much respect for the out of control addicts so it's easy to raise up the emotions desired to get people to agree that oh, we have to step in and control what pregnant women do and punish them when what they do isnt right in our opinion.

a reply to: dawnstar

Oh, excuse me.

I would, but that is the umpteenth time you have made a similar error. I don't care to reward ignorance.

Above you mention maybe charging her with "causing a death while in the process of committing a felony." In Alabama, that is a capital offense. Murder (not Murder One, just murder) is capital in two instances: multiple 1st-degree murder (Murder One) or murder of any degree while in the act of committing a felony.

You just argued for her to get the death penalty.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Not really argue for, just trying to pin down the actual crime... while drawing a firm line between this and the women who falls down the stairs or forgets to wear a seat belt, of is just carrying groceries into the house because theres no one else around to do it.

Taking meth while your pregnant is not an accident or oversight.

Using the bama rules she attempted mass murder - dump her in the ocean and move on.

a reply to: circuitsports

And I am the emotional one??
Show me the laws that would allow that.

a reply to: dawnstar

while drawing a firm line between this and the women who falls down the stairs or forgets to wear a seat belt, of is just carrying groceries into the house because theres no one else around to do it.

That line is already there. Where is it a felony to carry groceries into a house?

One does not thwart corrupt prosecutors by making more laws. One thwarts corrupt prosecutors by not letting them prosecute.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

It all depends on how the laws are written...
Crappy written laws will produce crappy results.

a reply to: circuitsports

Using the bama rules she attempted mass murder - dump her in the ocean and move on.

I disagree.

She should be looking at serious time in prison, because of her wanton activities, but the death penalty is not something to be taken lightly. While under Alabama law I could see a case being made as dawnstar says, the multiple attempts would not be sufficient in themselves. At the most, her actions in the case of her other children would be attempted 2nd degree murder and not capital.

She needs help; she is not rational. I can't see a jury actually convicting her on a capital offense. I only pointed out what dawnstar was actually suggesting in her zeal to protect the woman.

TheRedneck