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Free Will does Exist When you can Identify yourself

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posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 12:45 PM
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a reply to: MadLad

I'd be interested in reading about those studies. If you can provide a source?

It's really a double edged sword isn't it, many people would use not having a free will as an excuse to avoid responsibility- so many people. While others obsessed with control would look for every way to reinforce the existence of free will. Here you are producing a super "us against them" vibe, whether you meant to do this or not, which if I understand correctly... Jung might say is the key symptom of denying your own shadow. I'm a big denier of shadows myself, maybe I was wrong to say what I said before.




posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 12:56 PM
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originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: MadLad

I'd be interested in reading about those studies. If you can provide a source?

It's really a double edged sword isn't it, many people would use not having a free will as an excuse to avoid responsibility- so many people. While others obsessed with control would look for every way to reinforce the existence of free will. Here you are producing a super "us against them" vibe, whether you meant to do this or not, which if I understand correctly... Jung might say is the key symptom of denying your own shadow. I'm a big denier of shadows myself, maybe I was wrong to say what I said before.


Sorry, I should have linked to them.

Link

Link

Link

Link

Link

[url=https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?author=RF+Baumeister&author=EJ+Masicampo&author=CN+Dewall&title=Prosocial+benefits+of+feeling+free%3A+D isbelief+in+free+will+increases+aggression+and+reduces+helpfulness&publication_year=2009&journal=Pers+Soc+Psychol+Bull&volume=35&pages=260-268]Link[/u rl]

Trying to fix links
edit on 16-2-2019 by MadLad because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-2-2019 by MadLad because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 01:55 PM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

Very nicely said!



a reply to: MadLad

I agree, free will does exist.

I think you two may enjoy this, the esoteric view on free will:



edit on 2162019 by justbe because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 12:13 AM
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originally posted by: MadLad

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: MadLad

Prove you control your own actions by proving you can control all of your constituents parts.

You can't. If a stray gamma ray, for example intersected a neuron and triggered an electrochemical response making a decision that you are hungry or turning you into a murderer, what controlled the creation of the decision, you or the gamma ray?

Thinking that we have free will is like religious zealots in the dark ages thinking the entire universe rotated around the earth lol. Believing the fallacy of "free will" actually anchors you to this construct.

Cheers - Dave


I do control all of my constituent parts. Though a gamma ray could theoretically damage a constituent part, it takes a leap of absurdity to say it controls all subsequent actions.

Actually, studies have shown that people with a strong belief in free will perform better in a variety of contexts, such as in work and academic settings. Likewise, studies involving experimental manipulations of the belief in free will have demonstrated that weakening people’s belief in free will increases antisocial behavior, such as cheating, racial prejudice, and aggressiveness toward others, as well as decreases prosocial attitudes expressed in altruistic and cooperative behavior.



Like I said, prove it, prove that you have control of all of your constituent parts and that nothing can influence your ability in making decisions.

Cheers - Dave



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 07:47 AM
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a reply to: geezlouise

I think you touched on one of the biggest issues there are, where does my free will stop and yours begin? I don't support full free will with no exceptions (I still believe everyone has free will). If someone is violating another person's free will, they are then forfeit from having others honor theirs. As a society we need to figure out where that line is and try to cover all situations of what is acceptable and what is not. Justice will be black and white. This justice will seem cruel simply because it will assume everyone is responsible for their own actions. No exceptions.

From my point of view, it doesn't seem honest in saying that people who believe in complete free will are just looking for control. They don't want to control others, the exact opposite would probably be closer to the truth. The lovers of free will want others to take care of themselves, to take self accountability and responsibility because that makes this reality better for everyone. Makes the world better. Makes living in harmony with each other and our environment a possibility. Does it seem like we live in a harmonious world today, with everyone looking to blame someone else for their current situation?



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 09:37 AM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

Does it seem as if we live in a harmonious world today, with everyone wanting to blame someone else for their current situation?


If it was recognised that no one has freewill....... no one would blame anyone for anything.
Wouldn't that be harmonious?



edit on 17-2-2019 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 10:25 AM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: geezlouise


From my point of view, it doesn't seem honest in saying that people who believe in complete free will are just looking for control. They don't want to control others, the exact opposite would probably be closer to the truth. The lovers of free will want others to take care of themselves, to take self accountability and responsibility because that makes this reality better for everyone. Makes the world better. Makes living in harmony with each other and our environment a possibility. Does it seem like we live in a harmonious world today, with everyone looking to blame someone else for their current situation?



Well said!




edit on 2172019 by justbe because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 10:35 AM
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a reply to: ManyMasks




so is that free will or a product of his circumstances and conditioning


One could argue its both.

what if that man chose to kill himself due to the grief, is that circumstance and conditioning only could it be because of both? they chose because of the circumstance.

what if that man chose to forgive those that are considered his enemy?

Is that conditioning from what some interpret as Christ's words or is it a choice the man made due the circumstance?

Most, a very high majority would chose to be conditioned and join the battle and be labeled as a terrorist.

In the end, no matter what the conditions are we all have a choice no matter how hard certain choice may be.


I think we argue its due to circumstance because certain choices create more hate, is it human nature?

Could we eventually use what we have had for so long, the ability to reason to make choices we could never dream of making?

With faith and the choice to believe in something we can see the horrors some choices create, could it not also go the other way?



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 10:40 AM
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if we have a choice is for each individual to answer for themselves.


I believe I have free will, however I would be tested if I was put in circumstance mentioned in this thread.

Torture, having a gun pointed to a loved ones head to repent or give in to the will of another,

having my family killed due to a war fought where we reside.

I wish I am never tested in that way and I wish that for all others but its a day dream, a childs wish that has no place in this world or does it?

Can we choose to change and can we change without our environment forcing us to?

if we can then that is real change in my opinion.



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 11:46 AM
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a reply to: justbe

No one is holding the strings...... there is nothing separate doing anything.
Everything is just happening..... all is done.

The idea there is that there is a thinker of thoughts and a doer of actions........... but there is no thinker of thoughts, there are thoughts happening but they have no thinker thinking them. There's no one 'in there'.

Everything is happening spontaneously all by itself.

There is a full documentary film on youtube called 'Who' s Driving the Dreambus? '........

edit on 17-2-2019 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 12:14 PM
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originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: MadLad

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: MadLad

Prove you control your own actions by proving you can control all of your constituents parts.

You can't. If a stray gamma ray, for example intersected a neuron and triggered an electrochemical response making a decision that you are hungry or turning you into a murderer, what controlled the creation of the decision, you or the gamma ray?

Thinking that we have free will is like religious zealots in the dark ages thinking the entire universe rotated around the earth lol. Believing the fallacy of "free will" actually anchors you to this construct.

Cheers - Dave


I do control all of my constituent parts. Though a gamma ray could theoretically damage a constituent part, it takes a leap of absurdity to say it controls all subsequent actions.

Actually, studies have shown that people with a strong belief in free will perform better in a variety of contexts, such as in work and academic settings. Likewise, studies involving experimental manipulations of the belief in free will have demonstrated that weakening people’s belief in free will increases antisocial behavior, such as cheating, racial prejudice, and aggressiveness toward others, as well as decreases prosocial attitudes expressed in altruistic and cooperative behavior.



Like I said, prove it, prove that you have control of all of your constituent parts and that nothing can influence your ability in making decisions.

Cheers - Dave


That’s what the whole OP is about. I gave the example of the heartbeat. What besides yourself makes your heart beat? You could start there.



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 12:17 PM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: justbe

No one is holding the strings...... there is nothing separate doing anything.
Everything is just happening..... all is done.

The idea there is that there is a thinker of thoughts and a doer of actions........... but there is no thinker of thoughts, there are thoughts happening but they have no thinker thinking them. There's no one 'in there'.

Everything is happening spontaneously all by itself.

There is a full documentary film on youtube called 'Who' s Driving the Dreambus? '........


There is a thinker of thoughts. Had Plato not existed we wouldn’t know his writings.



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 12:22 PM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

lol sorry, I totally disagree. I got so much to say to that, I wouldnt even know where to start lol
This would be a rather lengthy discussion that I just dont have time for. I could easily be sucked into this but by my own free will I decide I rather go make music lol


I really just wanted to post the video



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 12:45 PM
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a reply to: justbe

If you had freewill you would have just posted the video lol.
edit on 17-2-2019 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 12:50 PM
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a reply to: MadLad

Ask Google....... Is there a thinker of thoughts?

And see what shows up.


edit on 17-2-2019 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 01:49 PM
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originally posted by: MadLad

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: MadLad

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: MadLad

Prove you control your own actions by proving you can control all of your constituents parts.

You can't. If a stray gamma ray, for example intersected a neuron and triggered an electrochemical response making a decision that you are hungry or turning you into a murderer, what controlled the creation of the decision, you or the gamma ray?

Thinking that we have free will is like religious zealots in the dark ages thinking the entire universe rotated around the earth lol. Believing the fallacy of "free will" actually anchors you to this construct.

Cheers - Dave


I do control all of my constituent parts. Though a gamma ray could theoretically damage a constituent part, it takes a leap of absurdity to say it controls all subsequent actions.

Actually, studies have shown that people with a strong belief in free will perform better in a variety of contexts, such as in work and academic settings. Likewise, studies involving experimental manipulations of the belief in free will have demonstrated that weakening people’s belief in free will increases antisocial behavior, such as cheating, racial prejudice, and aggressiveness toward others, as well as decreases prosocial attitudes expressed in altruistic and cooperative behavior.



Like I said, prove it, prove that you have control of all of your constituent parts and that nothing can influence your ability in making decisions.

Cheers - Dave


That’s what the whole OP is about. I gave the example of the heartbeat. What besides yourself makes your heart beat? You could start there.


Your heartbeat, like your breathing is under autonomous automatic control. It is part of a neural/biological feedback system. It has nothing to do with you or anyone else making a decision to control the rate or efficiency of your heartbeat. Your or anyone else's heartbeat has nothing to do with free will.

When I said prove it, I really meant prove it, because I know with extremely high probability that you can't prove free will exists. In order to prove almost anything with 100% certainty, one would have to exist outside the observed reality (system being measured). The question of free will is not unlike asking what the length of a yardstick is on earth and in a deep gravity well because it's different depending on your point of reference. To the person holding the yardstick, it looks like 36" on earth and in the gravity well. To a person outside the system it might look like 36" on earth, but in the gravity well it would be compressed and would look to be some small fraction of 36".

So, inside our reality construct we have the illusion of free will. An observer outside our reality construct would see us like characters in a movie, reading our lines and going through the motions.

Cheers - Dave



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 05:00 PM
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originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: MadLad

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: MadLad

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: MadLad

Prove you control your own actions by proving you can control all of your constituents parts.

You can't. If a stray gamma ray, for example intersected a neuron and triggered an electrochemical response making a decision that you are hungry or turning you into a murderer, what controlled the creation of the decision, you or the gamma ray?

Thinking that we have free will is like religious zealots in the dark ages thinking the entire universe rotated around the earth lol. Believing the fallacy of "free will" actually anchors you to this construct.

Cheers - Dave


I do control all of my constituent parts. Though a gamma ray could theoretically damage a constituent part, it takes a leap of absurdity to say it controls all subsequent actions.

Actually, studies have shown that people with a strong belief in free will perform better in a variety of contexts, such as in work and academic settings. Likewise, studies involving experimental manipulations of the belief in free will have demonstrated that weakening people’s belief in free will increases antisocial behavior, such as cheating, racial prejudice, and aggressiveness toward others, as well as decreases prosocial attitudes expressed in altruistic and cooperative behavior.



Like I said, prove it, prove that you have control of all of your constituent parts and that nothing can influence your ability in making decisions.

Cheers - Dave


That’s what the whole OP is about. I gave the example of the heartbeat. What besides yourself makes your heart beat? You could start there.


Your heartbeat, like your breathing is under autonomous automatic control. It is part of a neural/biological feedback system. It has nothing to do with you or anyone else making a decision to control the rate or efficiency of your heartbeat. Your or anyone else's heartbeat has nothing to do with free will.

When I said prove it, I really meant prove it, because I know with extremely high probability that you can't prove free will exists. In order to prove almost anything with 100% certainty, one would have to exist outside the observed reality (system being measured). The question of free will is not unlike asking what the length of a yardstick is on earth and in a deep gravity well because it's different depending on your point of reference. To the person holding the yardstick, it looks like 36" on earth and in the gravity well. To a person outside the system it might look like 36" on earth, but in the gravity well it would be compressed and would look to be some small fraction of 36".

So, inside our reality construct we have the illusion of free will. An observer outside our reality construct would see us like characters in a movie, reading our lines and going through the motions.

Cheers - Dave


It has everything to do with free will.

Whose impulses control your own heart? Your own. No other person, object or thing in the universe makes your heart beat. No appealing to imaginary “reality constructs” and “illusions” will ever cease your control over your own heartbeat. Only when you cease producing the impulse to keep your heart beating will it stop beating.

As I argued, this is a problem with identity. Opponents of free will refuse to believe that the so called “autonomous automatic control”, or subconscious, is a part of them and wholly regulated, generated, and controlled by them and them alone.



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 05:01 PM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: MadLad

Ask Google....... Is there a thinker of thoughts?

And see what shows up.



I wouldn’t have to ask google if there was no thinker of thoughts.



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 06:46 PM
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a reply to: bobs_uruncle

There are many articles out there that say otherwise. If you were so inclined, you could even freely educate yourself. One of the best examples are freedivers that learn to expertly control their heart rate and breathing.

Have you never tried to speed up your heart rate through concentration?



posted on Feb, 17 2019 @ 08:14 PM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

There are many articles out there that say otherwise. If you were so inclined, you could even freely educate yourself. One of the best examples are freedivers that learn to expertly control their heart rate and breathing.

Have you never tried to speed up your heart rate through concentration?


I have plenty of education thanks, 40 years as an engineer and physicist I think will do for now. From everything I have researched personally, I have concluded that this is a deterministic reality construct and there is no free will. Many might say that it's a fatalistic viewpoint or one is simply using the idea to negate personal responsibility. I disagree, I made the active choice from outside this construct to experience this life with all of its highs and lows, its killing and pain, even the regrets, but I recognize that my observations are limited by the pre-constructed path I must follow.

We generally bring no baggage with us when we get on this "ride," and we take nothing with us when we get off, except the memories and the feelings. If it were any other way, the experience would not feel genuine.

Cheers - Dave



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