Free Will does Exist When you can Identify yourself

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: MadLad

So would I be considered a dualist if I believed that we are a soul/spirit in a material body? A combination of the spiritual and physical.

If I then believed that the soul is 'me' and is responsible for all actions, wouldn't that make me a believer in free will while at the same time a dualist?

Yes, true. I think most dualists believe in free will. But then again, some believe every action is god's will, not their own.

originally posted by: ClovenSky
The reasoning behind not having free will is similar to letting a murder off from receiving full charges due to the plea of insanity.

If someone kills another person, would you let them off the hook because they are having a bad day or maybe not in the right frame of mind?

If you object to free will, there is no more personal accountability or personal responsibility. No more personal self determination. We are just products of our environment at that point. We can't be held accountable for any of our actions.

This is most interesting and made me think of what Jesus said. He said,

"Forgive them, Lord, for they know not what they do".

Jesus fundamentally and decisively died for our sins as an act of deliberate will on His part and the will of His Father's. He had a choice to run away from it, but knew only His death would crown His Life and make His Kingdom reachable and established.

Remember it is "Thy WILL be done".

Jesus is telling us that we should pray in the Creator's Will and not our own because our will is defective to lesser or greater degrees. He even asks at the time of his murder that his murderers be forgiven. Isn't that interesting?

I agree with Jesus that our will is really defective and that we are not fully conscious. Even Nietzche was not fully conscious. If we do not understand properly what we do in a sense we are not fully accountable. No philosopher has answered the whole puzzle which means they were in deficit in part, intellectually still in the dark.

It is like the lesson is that we must be corrected into being conscious and responsible. Jesus would tell us that it is not possible with G-D. I agree with Jesus on that.

"Thy Will be done" and "They don't know what they are doing" says it all.

originally posted by: Malak777
a reply to: MadLad

Part of why I posted that song was to draw your attention to the love aspect of will.

Falling in love, as we all know is giving our heart away to another and they have huge influence over our emotions. Do you see why I posted it?

I am getting a bit older now. I have had two very destructive relationships. Both partners were very selfish and mean with me. I am a very gentle guy and they mistook that for weakness. They found out the hard way that it is not weakness to be gentle, but strength. It is strength of will!

I would never give my heart away to anybody else now. "I keep a close watch on this heart of mine". That is a great song I know also. I want to post it to you, but not ruin your thread so I will pm it to you. The artist is a very bright and intellectual man.

To keep my strong will I have given up on relationships that compromise me. I have had to be ruthless rejecting people, even in my close family, because they were unconsciously destroying me. They really did nearly destroy me. This little song captures all of that in a very neatly pachkaged "torch" song.

Love is a terible loss of emotional independence and self will. If the partnership works though and you have given your emotions away to somebody who respects them then you both become twice the person with twice the ability in many ways. That is why i believe nature has this relationship blueprint in the human and animal species. It gives strength. If it is wrong though it destroys and makes very weak.

I have more free will than I ever had. I feel in control, but still the state could ruin my life at any time. I am at their mercy as we all are. The rich are at our mercy too. They don't see it, but they are.

You have touched on a fundamental crux of the human state, an aspiration, but how much a reality?

It is a pleasure to communicate with you. You have a very fresh intellect and your curiosity is most charming to behold.

Kind words, friend.

I recognize the pain of love as well. I lost my love to death a few years back, and the one before her to betrayal. As a result I descended into some self-destructive attitudes. But then again having lived through it I feel stronger. Honestly, it will be a while before I can build the inherent trust of love, but I've become more responsible and assured with myself in the meantime.

originally posted by: ClovenSky
The reasoning behind not having free will is similar to letting a murder off from receiving full charges due to the plea of insanity.

If someone kills another person, would you let them off the hook because they are having a bad day or maybe not in the right frame of mind?

If you object to free will, there is no more personal accountability or personal responsibility. No more personal self determination. We are just products of our environment at that point. We can't be held accountable for any of our actions.

That's right. Criminals can sometimes get off easy by blaming their states of mind, their upbringing, and any other number of excuses, even if the crime was committed with their own hands.

a reply to: MadLad

Yes, one of my partners died too. I too have been self destructive in ways before. I hope that you may trust again. Lol, I am too frightened. I like the independence and the flow of my mind without the compromises now. I think in relationships I always struggled because my will was always being compromised.

Once we get our emotions back we have the steering wheel more firmly in our hands. I have found my faith to be a better tool than philosophy, but philosophy is very useful also.

I love learning. I keep learning every day. I learn from people like you even. It is worth communicating. We never know who might benefit from that.

a reply to: Malak777

ah, yes ... well .. ummm ... I am not really a big believer in an all controlling god who demands obedience. If that were the case, why put us here in the first place? When you truly consider us not having free will purposely by god and how this reality is setup, that would make said god one sick mother #.

As an agnostic, I can get behind the idea of god or a creator, but I have yet to see them manifest themselves in this reality thus giving us the ultimate gift .... free will

There really is not point of this creation without free will.

a reply to: ClovenSky

Yes, Christian faith is humility in itself. We bends the knee to a greater Authority.

Jesus had a very interesting take on the power dynamic. He washed the feet of His students and called Himself their servant. He said that all who are great must serve as the expression of power.

It is alien to this world, but is it alien in Heaven? We all have our perception of this reality. We have to find what best fits. The only answer I could find was Jesus. I let Him be my Teacher and fort me it works. I was not able to make it on my own, I admit. He sure is a Good Friend though, the best I ever had. He lives up to what He said He can do for us.

I am still interested in philosophy, alternative and independent thinkers. I have more will of my own with Jesus than I ever had without Him when I was tied to this world, all its concerns and anxieties.

Whatever gets us through the night, eh!

a reply to: Malak777

A question if I may. Who would you rather deal with. Someone how did good and respected other people's free will because it is the right thing to do or someone who does something because someone else tells them to or a book tells them to.

Then it wouldn't matter about the absolutely awful stuff that gets mixed into religions who simply use some of simple rules of this reality to make themselves popular. People would possible follow the rules of this reality using their own morals and guidance ... again free will.

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: Malak777

A question if I may. Who would you rather deal with. Someone how did good and respected other people's free will because it is the right thing to do or someone who does something because someone else tells them to or a book tells them to.

Then it wouldn't matter about the absolutely awful stuff that gets mixed into religions who simply use some of simple rules of this reality to make themselves popular. People would possible follow the rules of this reality using their own morals and guidance ... again free will.

I would much rather they did it out of the goodness of their own will. Doing it just because we are told is being no more than a programmed droid.

It is a very important quote "Thy Will be done" isn't it. It is a tell all about Christian and Hebrew faith. It would be easy to do somethging good out of our own vanity though. Plenty of people do that. Jesus mentioned those who make big public demonstrations of themselves to seek human praise and big up their egos. Perhaps we can't do a truly good thing unless we do it for G-D as well as people? If we believe G-D should we rule HIM out of the equation at the very point where HE is wanting to be expressed by us? It would not make sense to believe HIM yet rule Him out and do something just for our own heart's good feeling right at the point when HE wants to be present in our decision making.

Perhaps free will in itself is a lonely act. It feels like it to me. I still act out of my own sense of will, but I admit I am wanting that to measure up to the model of G-D's Will.

In a sense your questioning has made me examine my will alongside G-D's. I had not actually thought of the "Thy Will be done" and people not knowing what they are doing in this context before. It has actually made me even more interested in this G-D's Will business. I believe this interested Tolstoy too in his "War and Peace" novel.

In a sense I believe Jesus is trying to educate our wills. It is a very definite discipline. I can see why many would perceive it as a prison sentence. For me though it has been a release from all that was haunting and destroying me.

Perhaps it depends on how we view this earth. Is it a gentle playground for our free will or is it a place full of snares to imprison our will in addictions of the flesh?

You may want to tell me I am not free because I am doing what I am told, but are you free for following your own will? Many are not. They are following their own will yet are addicted to things that imprison them.

Our wills get tangled up in worshipping other humans, the cares and woes of the world and our lives, money, riches, material goods, drugs, alcohol, gambling and all manner of compulsions that trap us. Are we still free when we are under such a spell? Can we find freedom in gambling and addiction? Can we find freedom in our businesses and money making? Can we find freedom in a career? In our career we are wll under the thumb of perofrmance targets, weighed down with accountability and responsibility.

a reply to: MadLad

I don't know anymore and am often confused. What do you think. Is believing in free will and being a honorable/noble human being better than being honorable/noble because someone tells you to?

If they produce the same result, does it really matter in the end?

I think it is always better to believe in free will with full self determination. What if the religious material doesn't cover something explicitly? Does that mean it is a free for all because it is not expressly prohibited by said religion? Where a honorable person operating moralistically with pure self determination will be able to handle most situations regardless?

I understand it would be better if we all understood honor and nobility, but I think that would also render this reality pointless. It would almost be a copy of heaven then. There would be no chance at spiritual growth in a perfect world.

The challenges, hardships and trials are here so we can grow, imo. Doing things because something/someone else tells you to doesn't really strike me as accomplishments. Maybe some form of control over impulses, but that is about it. You never really grow as a soul because you never take full responsibility. I have seen certain types of catholics that commit sins and simply have them wiped clean through confession, just to commit them again the following week. All ordained by god.

I should learn to harmonize with the religious maybe. But I just have this gut feeling that we will never grow and mature as a human race until we break free of the mind control and obedience demanded by religion.

If I were a god and wanted my creations to grow and prosper, I would be at the happiest if they accomplished it their own in the wonderful simulation I provided to them. If I had to demand and control them every step of the way, whats the point?

a reply to: ClovenSky

On the earth we have a boss that we must do things for. It is the state, the law, the company boss. If we do it for ourselves we are just another boss, a human one.

Perhaps there always is a boss to please? Remember that song Bob Dylan wrote "Gotta Serve Somebody"? I think he has a point. Perhaps we are always having to serve somebody's interest and there is no escape from that?

a reply to: Malak777

Damn, some of those questions are really deep.

I try to find some way to accept and be at peace with religion. But what about the soul corruption of inclusion based upon religion. If you are not part of the tribe, you are an outsider. Since you are an outsider we can suspend our honor and treat you like a non human. Can you deny that is in a lot of religious messages? Maybe even at the core of a lot of their tenets?

I do a lot of benevolent stuff simply because I am selfish. Very selfish. I love the good karma. I love the harmony and good will where you can feel happiness and contentment from other humans through kind acts. I have seen how positive karma impacts all ares of life. I am at the point that if someone asked me for choose between death or to go against someone else's free will, I would choose death (in my mind at least). I would not want the possibility of that soul stain to follow me after my use of this moral coil has ended. The price is way too high. Free will. Complete free will. Always.

When you deny free will, the slippery slope appears. I can't loose weight, it is my genes controlling me. I can't do something because 'physical excuse'. When you stop taking full responsibility and deny the possibility of free will, that is when wrongness enters the picture. That is when you start making excuses to go against the rules of this reality because you deny free will. That is when you start seeing the world in greys instead of black and white. That is when you turn inot a politician. That is when you say the ends will always justify the means. Very slippery slope.

Or not...who knows

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: MadLad

I don't know anymore and am often confused. What do you think. Is believing in free will and being a honorable/noble human being better than being honorable/noble because someone tells you to?

If they produce the same result, does it really matter in the end?

I think it is always better to believe in free will with full self determination. What if the religious material doesn't cover something explicitly? Does that mean it is a free for all because it is not expressly prohibited by said religion? Where a honorable person operating moralistically with pure self determination will be able to handle most situations regardless?

I understand it would be better if we all understood honor and nobility, but I think that would also render this reality pointless. It would almost be a copy of heaven then. There would be no chance at spiritual growth in a perfect world.

The challenges, hardships and trials are here so we can grow, imo. Doing things because something/someone else tells you to doesn't really strike me as accomplishments. Maybe some form of control over impulses, but that is about it. You never really grow as a soul because you never take full responsibility. I have seen certain types of catholics that commit sins and simply have them wiped clean through confession, just to commit them again the following week. All ordained by god.

I should learn to harmonize with the religious maybe. But I just have this gut feeling that we will never grow and mature as a human race until we break free of the mind control and obedience demanded by religion.

If I were a god and wanted my creations to grow and prosper, I would be at the happiest if they accomplished it their own in the wonderful simulation I provided to them. If I had to demand and control them every step of the way, whats the point?

I imagine some religious people act a certain way because they are told to, but then again, so do many non-religious.

I am a staunch non-believer. But that doesn't mean I cannot find affinity with my religious brethren. I still, for the most part, dream christian dreams.

a reply to: MadLad

In a order to have free will, two things are required, a non-deterministic reality and an entity's absolute control over all parts of its "body." Since according to both science and theologians, that this is a deterministic reality, the idea of free will fails. In addition, since we do not have absolute control over all our constituent parts, again the idea of free will fails.

There is no free will once you're inside this reality construct. You and I and everyone else simply complete our character's assigned tasks. We can observe, we cannot effect. So ride in your meat puppet bus and watch the scenery :-)

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: MadLad

In a order to have free will, two things are required, a non-deterministic reality and an entity's absolute control over all parts of its "body." Since according to both science and theologians, that this is a deterministic reality, the idea of free will fails. In addition, since we do not have absolute control over all our constituent parts, again the idea of free will fails.

There is no free will once you're inside this reality construct. You and I and everyone else simply complete our character's assigned tasks. We can observe, we cannot effect. So ride in your meat puppet bus and watch the scenery :-)

Cheers - Dave

I agree with those conditions. However, I cannot see how reality is deterministic, and as I argued, no one but ourselves control our actions.

We do and we don't...its really comes down to choice to lightly put it and the ball rolls. Supposedly we make thousands of choices everyday and we aren't just aren't even aware of it.

We just couldn't process such a thing as predestination or chaos theory, it would make us day dream about the future, mean while forgetting the present, while still being stuck in the past.

originally posted by: ClovenSky

..."...The challenges, hardships and trials are here so we can grow, imo..."...

How can one have free-will, or self-determination, if there are already: "challenges, hardships and trials are here so we can grow," ?

Who, or what, is responsible for these: "challenges, hardships and trials are here so we can grow," ?

originally posted by: MadLad

originally posted by: Graysen
You don't really have free will; you have the SENSATION of being free, because you grew up intellectually in a culture that prizes freedom and tells you that you have it. That culture de-values control, and teaches you not to notice when you are being controlled. Which is why pretty girls sell the beer in the commercials.

An evil genius could build a robot, and program it to believe it is thinking "free thoughts", and pat itself on the back for being so clever, and then to bask in the emotionally gratifying glow of believing in its own free will.

but you'd still be a robot.

It's called a Philosophical Zombie

[/matrix]

.

Are you sure you don't have the SENSATION of being unfree?

What besides you controls your actions?

We are limited beings. Limited by our upbringing, by our neurochemistry, by our blood sugar levels and hormone & steroid levels.

Your question makes my point. We cannot trust our sensations. Time FEELS like it flows unevenly; that as soon as I fall asleep the alarm clock is going off and it's the next day. I am told by society that time passed at a uniform rate while I was unconscious. But I don't know it.

You might be hallucinating right now. You might be insane and not know it. So, your sensation of (un)free will simply cannot be trusted.

How do you know you're not dreaming right now???

originally posted by: Graysen

originally posted by: MadLad

originally posted by: Graysen
You don't really have free will; you have the SENSATION of being free, because you grew up intellectually in a culture that prizes freedom and tells you that you have it. That culture de-values control, and teaches you not to notice when you are being controlled. Which is why pretty girls sell the beer in the commercials.

An evil genius could build a robot, and program it to believe it is thinking "free thoughts", and pat itself on the back for being so clever, and then to bask in the emotionally gratifying glow of believing in its own free will.

but you'd still be a robot.

It's called a Philosophical Zombie

[/matrix]

.

Are you sure you don't have the SENSATION of being unfree?

What besides you controls your actions?

We are limited beings. Limited by our upbringing, by our neurochemistry, by our blood sugar levels and hormone & steroid levels.

Your question makes my point. We cannot trust our sensations. Time FEELS like it flows unevenly; that as soon as I fall asleep the alarm clock is going off and it's the next day. I am told by society that time passed at a uniform rate while I was unconscious. But I don't know it.

You might be hallucinating right now. You might be insane and not know it. So, your sensation of (un)free will simply cannot be trusted.

How do you know you're not dreaming right now???

But the memories of our upbringing, our blood sugars and hormones are a part of us. None of these are outside and coercive forces making our decisions for us.

I know I’m not dreaming right now because I haven’t gone to sleep yet.

originally posted by: MadLad

originally posted by: ClovenSky
The reasoning behind not having free will is similar to letting a murder off from receiving full charges due to the plea of insanity.

If someone kills another person, would you let them off the hook because they are having a bad day or maybe not in the right frame of mind?

If you object to free will, there is no more personal accountability or personal responsibility. No more personal self determination. We are just products of our environment at that point. We can't be held accountable for any of our actions.

That's right. Criminals can sometimes get off easy by blaming their states of mind, their upbringing, and any other number of excuses, even if the crime was committed with their own hands.

Look up Charles Witman...... he killed 16 people including his mother and wife.

In his suicide note he asked for an autopsy to see if there was any sign of a physical disorder.

Guess what..... there was.
Witman was found to have a glioblastoma.

Check it out.

Did Charles Witman have free will?