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Free Will does Exist When you can Identify yourself

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posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 05:00 AM
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a reply to: MadLad

Scientific studies of the brain show that psychopaths have a different structure than those who are not psychopaths.

Is it the fault of a pyschopath that they have a brain that is structured different?

I have just read about a man who at 40 developed a sexual interest in children.... he put to bed his step daughter and touched her.... was offered treatment programme... was touching up staff.
He was given a brain scan and was found to have a large orbitofrontal tumor...... it was removed and his liking for children disappeared.
Months later the attraction returned and when scanned again with MRI it was found that the tumor had also returned.
edit on 16-2-2019 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 05:27 AM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: Malak777

ah, yes ... well .. ummm ... I am not really a big believer in an all controlling god who demands obedience. If that were the case, why put us here in the first place? When you truly consider us not having free will purposely by god and how this reality is setup, that would make said god one sick mother #.

As an agnostic, I can get behind the idea of god or a creator, but I have yet to see them manifest themselves in this reality thus giving us the ultimate gift .... free will

There really is not point of this creation without free will.

God is manifesting..... this that is appearing is the manifestation of God.

God is not a thing that will come..... God is seeing his own face constantly.

The reality is there is no you to have free will......... there is only this that is.



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 05:42 AM
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originally posted by: MadLad

I know I’m not dreaming right now because I haven’t gone to sleep yet.

When you go to sleep notice that there is nothing in deep sleep..... you do not even know you exist.

And notice that when waking occurs that everything appears at once...... the world and the body arise as one.

The appearance is no different than turning the tv on..... prior to waking there is a blank screen and then bang the screen is full of movement and colour.

You are the blank screen on which existence appears and existence is made of nothing but the screen..... but you may have mistaken yourself to be a finite thing that comes and goes.......but really you are what existence is made on.

We are such stuff that dreams are made on. Shakespeare.

Merrily, merrily, merrily.... life is but a dream.
edit on 16-2-2019 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 07:15 AM
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a reply to: Nothin

It almost seems like the idea of free will is intimately tied to how a person views this reality.

I believe we are a soul. We are using this material body as an interface with this reality. The body is us and not us. Like using a telescope. It will allow you to interface with this reality and explore things you wouldn't normally be able to explore. Those explorations create memories which become a part of you. If the telescope has defects, your interpretation of reality will also be different, but it is still you at the core receiving those impressions.

Like a 'defective' body, it is still you, the soul, at the core and the body is simply an interface. Who is to say that our soul or mental consciousness doesn't impact our physical body? What if corruption of the soul impacts how our physical body is constructed. What if mass murders that are found to have 'abnormal' brains, created those abnormalities by sickness of thought?

But if you didn't believe in a soul and possibly followed the path of the atheist, then having free will seems very impossible as well. You would only be the physical body and then you are simply following genes and programming with no self determination.



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 07:26 AM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: Nothin
What if mass murders that are found to have 'abnormal' brains, created those abnormalities by sickness of thought?


Can you know what thought will arise next?
Thought just appears...... it is known as it happens...... there is no one doing thinking.



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 07:45 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

Yep and in an endless cycle we go round and round.

I understand the theories that thought arises from the brain and the brain is strictly material. In that case, the brain/body/genetics will determine everything as there is no soul.

But on the opposite side, there is a soul. Mind over body. Maybe thought or consciousness, the soul, can change our physical body. That would support complete free will.

I guess it all boils down to how you wish to live your life. How you wish to interpret this reality. Is it more comforting to believe in the idea we are simply a product of our environment and upbringing? Does that remove self accountability?



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 07:53 AM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

'A man can do as he wills but he cannot will what he wills' Arthur Schopenhauser.

Can anyone choose to prefer chocolate icecream rather than strawberry?



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 07:55 AM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

There are no individual souls.

So much belief........ what is there really..... just this that is.

The present is presenting itself to itself eternally.



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 07:59 AM
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a reply to: ClovenSky


I guess it all boils down to how you wish to live your life.

So why are people not happy?
If everyone lived the way they wished then there would be no unhappy people.



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 08:12 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

Ah, but thinking there isn't an individual soul is pure belief as well, isn't it? The atheist is as much of a believer as the religious. No one really knows for sure.

This reality is a blank canvas, eagerly awaiting new and unique experiences.

People are unhappy because they make themselves unhappy. Free will. Complete free will. It is always and the constant struggle to how you lay down your impressions of this reality that creates either harmony or disharmony. The unhappy are that way because they choose that path. They lay down their impressions of this reality in disharmony, by the filters they set. You are fully responsible for the created lens in which you view this world. You can even dig up old happy memories of times past and corrupt them with current disharmony and lay them down again in a different way.

Why would someone choose to think themselves a slave when freedom is right there, within reach. Always. Not taking full responsibility creates disharmony. Maybe it is by the simple starting thought that you don't have free will that leads a person down the path of 'unhappiness'.

Maybe that is why people treat other people as complete #, because they think this is all pointless. We are all slaves so it dosen't really matter at that point, does it?



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 08:30 AM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

Do you have freewill to choose which flavour of icecream you prefer?



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 08:36 AM
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a reply to: ClovenSky
Thought appears.... one of the thoughts appears as 'I'....... What does the word 'I' refer to?



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 09:47 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

The "I" refers to the self. Buddhism teaches that the self is an illusion-- that there is no solitary, single entity.

The argument is that your self is actually a conglomeration of thoughts that changes from moment to moment until you die, and those thoughts dissipate out into the universe. Some of them may endure, and come together in other streams, making up other individuals. The claim is that this is what reincarnation really means, not that "you" will be born in another life (since "you" is an illusion that doesn't stay the same during even one lifetime.)

Parts of your consciousness will be manifested again later, in multiple other beings.

some of those thoughts are freer than others, probably.



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 10:09 AM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: MadLad

originally posted by: ClovenSky
The reasoning behind not having free will is similar to letting a murder off from receiving full charges due to the plea of insanity.

If someone kills another person, would you let them off the hook because they are having a bad day or maybe not in the right frame of mind?

If you object to free will, there is no more personal accountability or personal responsibility. No more personal self determination. We are just products of our environment at that point. We can't be held accountable for any of our actions.



That's right. Criminals can sometimes get off easy by blaming their states of mind, their upbringing, and any other number of excuses, even if the crime was committed with their own hands.

Look up Charles Witman...... he killed 16 people including his mother and wife.

In his suicide note he asked for an autopsy to see if there was any sign of a physical disorder.

Guess what..... there was.
Witman was found to have a glioblastoma.

Check it out.

Did Charles Witman have free will?


Yes. It was him and him only who made the choice to load the gun and fire the weapon. No one or nothing else decided anything for him. No one or nothing else forced his hand.



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 11:11 AM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: Itisnowagain

Why would someone choose to think themselves a slave


There isn't anyone choosing.
What is is.



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 11:12 AM
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It's not impossible to take responsibility of your own life and to a point, to own yourself, while simultaneously knowing there is no free will at least in the big grand scheme of things. I think perhaps free will exists only on a micro individual scale and only due to our inability to grasp the bigger picture, our inability to grasp how the past and the future plays into every minute decision. Free will can only exist due to our inability to assess all the moving parts of the universe and comprehend how interconnected this universe is on a macro level. Basically, free will is allowed to exist thanks to our ignorance.

And just because a person is maybe ill and is driven to do terrible things, it doesn't mean that we would allow them to continue to do terrible things. We don't just shrug our shoulders and say, "oh well they were born like that so it's ok." On the contrary, there is always those who will naturally be driven to find cures for them, and to give consequence to their unhealthy behavior. There are always those who consciously look into the past and the future to try to assess how this illness came about, how this person was born and driven to such behavior.

People who are obsessed with free will often look like they are just desperately trying to avoid helplessness and vulnerability and love the idea of being in control, and also they seem afraid that maybe justice wouldn't exist in a world without free will- they think that without free will then they wouldn't be able to point the finger at the other any longer and therefor justice would cease to exist. But justice seems to be part of our programming too, we are born obsessed with it. So again, there will always be people who will say, "that is wrong! something is wrong there even if they were born that way! it's not right and we have to investigate it, past and future and all, and fix it!"

I LOVE YOU FOREVER NO MATTER WHAT ITSNOWAGAIN! Just sayin.
edit on 16-2-2019 by geezlouise because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 11:18 AM
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a reply to: MadLad

I believe in a type of free will as well…albeit a slightly limited form of freewill…in the sense that we can’t do everything and anything we want in this limited existence on Earth. There are also so many influencing factors, some innate and others learned through upbringing and culture, which influence us…

But just because there are influences (positive and negative all around us) does not negate the fact that a type of freewill exists…i.e. choice is still present even when others are influencing our decisions.

In regards to your thread title, I would say that when one identifies the “True Self” their “free will” increases…as they are able to see from more perspectives. In other words, they can see the negative influences and falsehoods for what they truly are and start making better choices/decisions…Well...the positive aspects of their free will increases...

The other key aspect to all this freewill business is…how do people even have the power to chose anything and make decisions to begin with. Where does this ability come from and how does it work…

It can’t all be just based on past learned experiences or innate things…as humans throughout history have constantly gone beyond their own programming to produce innovative ideas, inventions and do incredible acts of heroism etc…

We can’t even make “artificial intelligence” chose something of it’s own free will without making it do advanced calculations beforehand…Which is really just the machine coming to an exact answer…which is not making a choice imo… or the machine is programmed with “pseudo random” algorithms which only makes it look like it made a choice…non of which is a true form of “freewill”

- JC


ETA... S+F

edit on 16-2-2019 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 11:19 AM
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a reply to: Graysen

Consciousness doesn't belong to anyone.
Everything appears and disappears in consciousness.
Like everything appears on the tv screen......... apparent people can only appear if the screen is present.
The screen is consciousness and it appears as everything.

Notice that when the tv screen is full of movement and colour....... the screen gets overlooked.



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 12:22 PM
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a reply to: MadLad

Prove you control your own actions by proving you can control all of your constituents parts.

You can't. If a stray gamma ray, for example intersected a neuron and triggered an electrochemical response making a decision that you are hungry or turning you into a murderer, what controlled the creation of the decision, you or the gamma ray?

Thinking that we have free will is like religious zealots in the dark ages thinking the entire universe rotated around the earth lol. Believing the fallacy of "free will" actually anchors you to this construct.

Cheers - Dave



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 12:28 PM
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originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: MadLad

Prove you control your own actions by proving you can control all of your constituents parts.

You can't. If a stray gamma ray, for example intersected a neuron and triggered an electrochemical response making a decision that you are hungry or turning you into a murderer, what controlled the creation of the decision, you or the gamma ray?

Thinking that we have free will is like religious zealots in the dark ages thinking the entire universe rotated around the earth lol. Believing the fallacy of "free will" actually anchors you to this construct.

Cheers - Dave


I do control all of my constituent parts. Though a gamma ray could theoretically damage a constituent part, it takes a leap of absurdity to say it controls all subsequent actions.

Actually, studies have shown that people with a strong belief in free will perform better in a variety of contexts, such as in work and academic settings. Likewise, studies involving experimental manipulations of the belief in free will have demonstrated that weakening people’s belief in free will increases antisocial behavior, such as cheating, racial prejudice, and aggressiveness toward others, as well as decreases prosocial attitudes expressed in altruistic and cooperative behavior.




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