I would like to propose a DEBATE on ATS

I like to debate. A lot. But this is waaay too technical for me. There would need to be a lot of physics and maths involved I feel. Not my strong points!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Okay, no worries.

Kind regards,

Bally

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Long distance space travel would take the entire planet to work together, not just with science but with global cooperation of resources and funding. Most of the outspoken ATS crowed is against such dealings as it fits within the big bad 'globalized' model.

I am a firm believer that globalization will happen, whether people like it or not, and will eventually lead to advances like long distance space travel, but right now, the world is at each others necks again, won't happen anytime soon.

Globalization will happen, but we are not even close to being in that position. I believe we are at least a century (probably more) away.

It can't realistically happen until the ppl all over the world enjoy a more or less equal standard if living.

It also can't realistically happen until there is far less radicalism than I see at this point.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk


I'll take the pro opinion with my sound position that long range space travel is possible if you take a large enough 'sandwich' with you, i.e. DB.

You could fly to the Andromeda galaxy with that snack pack.

I think your debate idea is wonderful fun. Its time to think out side of the box. The Moon and Mars are doable, there are a several plans collecting dust at NASA that would probably work. Proxima Centauri is about 4.22 light-years from Earth and is the closest star. Now that presents a challenge.


Obviously propulsion is going to be a huge obstacle. No worm holes, no warp drive. Only using proven technology.
If C is the speed of light (186,000 miles per second) reaching any meaningful percentage of C requires immense power. Given our current level of technology, any less than a multi generational vessel, for a one way trip, is probably out.

I've got to think about this.
Oh, how fun!

originally posted by: and14263
I like to debate. A lot. But this is waaay too technical for me. There would need to be a lot of physics and maths involved I feel. Not my strong points!

I think current theory is up to the task. The practical application, however, is not close.

We don't have a propulsion system for interstellar travel. Even if we did, at those speeds, hitting something the size of a pea would annihilate the craft.

That means a force field, or time warp of some sort is required.

a reply to: Nickn3

At this point I believe "multi generational" is a given.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk



Ummm...multigenerational ship or suspended animation ships assembled in space out of raw materials mined from asteroids...no need to ship water or propellants up the gravity well when there’s so much of it already out there waiting to be mined...

Capture a small ice comet or ice body asteroid for propellant and water resource to be extracted while traveling...also a resource rich asteroid...

Use a combination of technologies for propulsion...ie...thousands of ion drives...solar sails...mag scoop...etc...plot through gaseous regions of space to graze for resources and fuels...


Graze the gas giants and their rings for both propellants and hydrocarbons...and also use them for slingshot propulsion...

3D print everything you need...while en-route...


Automate everything...and grow all of your organic’s While recycling everything...no bodies buried in space...they go into the compost...

Such ships would have to be extremely huge...perhaps hollowed out and strengthened large asteroids...which also might help conceal their true purpose from casual observation...tethered and retractable engines to both push and pull while visually looking like a group of asteroids and comets traveling the same trajectory...


I know there’s a million other ideas and concepts that could be combined...however...here’s a few thoughts...






YouSir

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk
A lot of people are restricting the exercise through cost, ie. too expensive. Let me go back a moment. In WW2 America built liberty ships. Over a couple of years they built 2,710 ships. They could turn a ship out in less than 5 days. Now think on that in war time.
Where there's a will there's a way. Now bring it up to modern times. I've said this a few times.
How much did it take to put a man on the moon, a few million, a few billion? Now think, what if everybody gave their time and resources for nothing. No cost for materials, no cost for labour, everything for free. Now that equates to putting a man on the moon for nothing, zilch.
It's only man's greed that puts a heavy price on space travel.
I don't think that man will go farther than Mars with today's known technology. One of the main obstacles is the mass of fuel needed. There has to be a breakthrough in, say, gravity manipulation. ie. Gravity is all over the universe, if we could harness that there would be no mass of fuel because you could harvest it (use it) as you go along.

originally posted by: YouSir
a reply to: Flyingclaydisk



Ummm...multigenerational ship or suspended animation ships assembled in space out of raw materials mined from asteroids...no need to ship water or propellants up the gravity well when there’s so much of it already out there waiting to be mined...

"Suspended animation"? Absolute zero is not achievable at present, only near absolute zero is. No living organism can survive this process, let alone true 'Abolute Zero'. And this is the only process where such a thing as suspended animation would be possible.

"Mined from asteroids"? And processed how? where? In what production plant? And how would this material be transported to where you are building this super-ship?

"Up the gravity well"? How would you propose to do this? I'm not even sure I understand what you're suggesting with this one.

Capture a small ice comet or ice body asteroid for propellant and water resource to be extracted while traveling...also a resource rich asteroid...

'Capture a comet'? How? You're talking about changing the orbit of an object which has trillions of tons of mass and is moving at tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of miles per hour. Can you imagine how much energy this would take? Where would this energy come from...Earth? And it would completely deplete Earth based resources, IF it even worked at all.

Use a combination of technologies for propulsion...ie...thousands of ion drives...solar sails...mag scoop...etc...plot through gaseous regions of space to graze for resources and fuels...

Okay. First, it would take thousands of years to get near these gaseous regions of space. Then after you "graze" for these resources, how would you transport them to where you need them? And how many thousands of years would that take?

Graze the gas giants and their rings for both propellants and hydrocarbons...and also use them for slingshot propulsion...

Presumably you're talking about Jupiter and Saturn here. The biggest human made object to reach these planets was the size of a VW Beetle. And even then it took years to get there, and was on a trajectory which could never return to Earth. That's a one way ticket. So, slingshot to where?

3D print everything you need...while en-route...

3D printing requires highly processed raw materials (i.e. plastic). That, or extremely high temperatures for metals. How would you boost all these raw materials into orbit? And what happens when the 3D printer breaks halfway to Andromeda?

Automate everything...and grow all of your organic’s While recycling everything...no bodies buried in space...they go into the compost...

Okay, but 100% recycling is not even close to possible with current technology. But Earth does it, right? Yes, but Earth also took billions of years to form and evolve too.

Such ships would have to be extremely huge...perhaps hollowed out and strengthened large asteroids...which also might help conceal their true purpose from casual observation...tethered and retractable engines to both push and pull while visually looking like a group of asteroids and comets traveling the same trajectory...

Cool idea, but how exactly would you hollow out an asteroid? And what would you do with all the excess rock and dirt? Launch it into space? But more importantly, are you okay going wherever that asteroid is already headed? Because you're not going to be able to change it's direction (orientation maybe, but not direction). And where would the energy come from for this mining effort? Solar? Wow...that's going to take tens of thousands of years with current solar technology.

I know there’s a million other ideas and concepts that could be combined...however...here’s a few thoughts...

It's a good post, and my comments aren't directed at you personally, but more just pointing out the realities (in the current world and foreseeable future) of what is being discussed.

Reality is a real buzz-kill.

We have a forum for exactly what you are requesting:

ATS Debate Forum

Here's a thread made by staff on this forum, who to contact, etc:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: eriktheawful

As I noted previously, I have no interest in honing my debate skills bounded by all sorts of rules. I'm not looking for a win/lose status. What I am proposing is a true debate on a subject. I'm not interested in who the "winner" is by debate rules, I'm interested in getting to the REAL "answer" of the debated subject. No picture limits. No word limits. No time limits.

Rules in the Debate forum

I'm in

If anybody asks you this :
"whaddya want for Christmas hon ?"
"heuuu.. Kim Stanley Robinsnunun.... you gotta pen?"

The Martian Trilogy

Mars The Red
Mars The Green
Mars the Blue
............

Magnificent
The before, during and after
of our future colonisation of Mars

Considering the extreme duration of an interstellar tip, all systems must be at least triple redundancy. Propulsion, power sources, life support, medical, even living space. That a tall order. To maintain a proper breeding population for say two thousand years, I think 5000 astronauts to start with, with plans for a peak population of 15000 by the 4th generation.

Some form of artificial gravity will be required. Perhaps spinning the vehicle would work.

The requirements are immense. The idea of a hollowed out asteroid may be the best plan. As additional space is needed the waste material could be used as porpellant or building materials.

It looks like building the vehicle will be a muilty generations task all by its self. Without breakthrough propulsion technology, I don’t think we are leaving the solar system. Prove me wrong, please?

A power source is one of the first requirements. Didn’t The Shunk Works patent a 200 ton fusion reactor this year?

a reply to: Nickn3


Whew the eugenics involved alone in that endeavor. "Sorry Susy. I know you don't like your unclecousin, but it's for the best of the colony trust us."

But you're spot on. I agree with what you say. At this point it's just not doable. Even if they do come out with some amazing breakthrough technology in the next fifty years. Everything is going to be a one way trip at this point.

If we are talking about a multigenerational voyage through space, how are they going to sustain a growing population within the confines of a ship. What if the population outgrows the ship? Some kind of illness takes over? Someone goes psycho and starts murdering people? Mutiny?

What if they never find a terrestrial body to land on? They miss the mark, and continue through space?

Someone mentioned everyone on earth pooling all of their money to send a very very much smaller percentage of people through space and for the purpose of making life livable on other planets. What? And screw everyone else on Earth? Yeah, sure. That could be a thing.

We could also be that scary species that finds planets and robs them of all their resources like the evil aliens in the movies. Where we find out that we're the cosmic A*holes that everyone hates, and that's the reason why we were stuck on this planet in this desert region of space.