I would like to propose a DEBATE on ATS

I'm not sure how to do this, so I'm just throwing it out here.

I would like to propose a debate on ATS. It seems timely, and it seems there are some very entrenched opinions. I think it might make for a good discussion / debate. So, here's the topic...

Long distance space travel for mankind (in our lifetime...say the next 50 years). This includes things like colonization of other planets (think: Mars), and travel beyond those planets. Additionally, the topic should include man "living" (unassisted) in space for long periods of time.

I'm not interested in talking about things like the Van Allen belt and radiation (those things are easily overcome), but rather the viability of "MANKIND" (not machines) exploring space. And, "mankind" trying to establish an 'escape plan' from Earth.

Is it feasible?

Is it practical, or even realistic?

Notes: Some say; if we don't "try" we never will. I will be honest and say; I have my doubts (in the current times). And, while I wholly support space exploration, I will be candid and say 'mankind' is not the right person to do it.

So, I ask ATS; how would we set up such a debate? It seems like we have some passionate oppinions here, but the actual discussion usually gets distracted with a lot of other "noise".

I'd really like to hash this out, with all the fantasies versus the realities. Science and fact based discussion. Dreamers and idealists are fine, but let's really dig deep into the realities of what all of this means!

How would we set up such a discussion, ATS???

P.S. - Is anyone interested in having such a discussion???

P.S.S. - The discussion will be "hard" no doubt, and there are no "easy" one-liner answers. Smart asses will get spanked. I'm talking about a REAL discussion.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Sure, why not. I'm all for space exploration.

Perhaps the debate forum would be a start.

Kind regards.

bally

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Long distance space travel would take the entire planet to work together, not just with science but with global cooperation of resources and funding. Most of the outspoken ATS crowed is against such dealings as it fits within the big bad 'globalized' model.

I am a firm believer that globalization will happen, whether people like it or not, and will eventually lead to advances like long distance space travel, but right now, the world is at each others necks again, won't happen anytime soon.

I would be interested in seeing debates covering topics like this and more. Unfortunately, I don't have the time nor the expertise to get into the tiny details. I would like to see the debate of how astronauts would return from Mars if they were to go there as I don't see the technology being able to provide such measures even in fifty years. I don't think that the technology will exist to terraform the Martian environment or create a beneficial atmosphere. The financial expenditure of creating a livable environment on Mars would be a huge burden that I don't think will be overcome with current resources.

a reply to: bally001

That's fine, but I'm not interested in picking opposite side just to try my debate skills. I can debate just fine (I slayed people in Debate in college). I would really like to debate the actual topic (without picking a side first).

Let's get down in the grass and get muddy, and really debate the actual topic, not try to see who is better at "debate" itself. This is about the subject, not the process.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Mankind has the curiousity of the cat, therefore we should bankrupt our nation dumping batrillions into frivolous fantasies of colonies on Mars. Just because its far and stuff.

Nope, dont practice on the Moon first (and MAKE MONEY in the process), just go for the golden er rusty planet.

By this very logic, we should be preparing RIGHT NOW to head off to another solar system. Because, you know, we havent done it yet.

Its the same logic of these "AI" pioneer types whom promise to annihilate civilization in their pursuits of doing it 'just because' it hasnt been done yet (and therefore its a "problem" to be "solved"), and their obsession (driven by because its their "Promised Land") has them RUSHING it in absolute HASTE, the very haste which will ensure it will go very very wrong.

Just like this haste to rush to Mars, no matter the cost, although this part is very ironic as its no Promised Land (its a frozen desolate toxic soil radiation desert LOL.

All good points to far, but let's get them in one place...and really duke it out with FACTS!

No Star-Trek stuff, no fantasy...just the pure, ugly, realities of things like...lift, gravity, escape velocities, spaceship size, weight, water, food, travel in close quarters, isolation, risk, lifespans, actual orbits, realistic mission plans (not fantasy).

The REAL stuff!

ETA - This isn't about "philosophy", this is about actually "doing it".

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Man doesn’t need to go to distant galaxies. It takes too long unless we figure a way to travel much faster than light.

We have already sent drones to the moon and to mars. We could send manned orbiting stations to control nearly autonomous equipment to any planet.

Just imagine, climbing out of bed and putting on a control suit that operates some mining equipment on phobos, or a rover that is taking samples on the moon, guiding asteroids back to earth orbit to be taken apart and dropped back for refinement.

Don’t get me wrong, i wanna go to mars, but, in a few decades when we have the fool proof technology.

Okay first off I'd dig a serious discussion about this topic, think it is definitely the next step for mankind. How to achieve it. Mentioned in another thread think it starts on the moon, we have to be able to practice trial and error on construction of habitats, manufacturing oxygen, water, food and energy along with managing the radiation question. And it would even be more complex and dangerous on Mars.Also would like to discuss long term space flight building ship thats designed to explore forever with a crew that not only needs to survive and live but enough persons to even have children that would eventually be trained to take over the mission.

Think we could fairly easy send robots to the moon to fabricate atleast partial habitats, 3D print them if you will, then send humans to finish them, seal them, pressurize them etc. Along with mining or processing and storing basic needs. Cost would be immense but its the first step that has to be taken. Unless we just go build space platform in orbit to build and launch from there. So yea I'd read it and follow, if not out right participate.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Smart asses will get spanked.

Promise...don't just tease us.

Topic....at the current level of technology, we move to slow for space travel to be practical. But psychologically, we are explorers and seek new challenges in all of life endeavors. I think it was Carl Sagan that said "extinction is the rule, survival is the exception".... we better get rolling if we want to survive.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Very interesting thing to talk about! I will give my biggest grief about this subject but keep in mind I am 3 glasses of wine down so I may not be at my best in regards to this debate atm.

I personally believe we currently have the tech to achieve such a task. But I also believe we need more trained personnel with more experience in long duration space flight. Yes we have done experiments on the ISS but I personally believe we need to do some further away from Earth. Mostly to get people trained and experienced to deal with not seeing home. I think that if we can do that then our chances of colonization of another world greatly increase.
If someone thinks we can already do this then please tell me why.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I read a book once "Are we along?" on the question of the existence of extraterrestrials. I can't remember the exactly numbers but I believe the book said with Saturn V technology we could migrate and occupy every star in the entire galaxy in about 30,000 years. And based on the age of the galaxy, and an estimate for the amount of time it would take for life to occur the first time in a galaxy, using Saturn V technology the galaxy could have been completely occupied 500 times over. So the question posed in the book was our galaxy should be teaming with life. Or, as the book stated, we are the first.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
No Star-Trek stuff, no fantasy...just the pure, ugly, realities of things like...lift, gravity, escape velocities, spaceship size, weight, water, food, travel in close quarters, isolation, risk, lifespans, actual orbits, realistic mission plans (not fantasy).

The REAL stuff!

ETA - This isn't about "philosophy", this is about actually "doing it".

I read the following book:

Colony
by Ben Bova

In the Future, Everything is Different.
But Nothing Has Changed.
The Earth has been poisoned by pollution, choked by overpopulation, and ravaged by the mindless greed of power-hungry corporations. A fragile peace is threatened by landless revolutionaries and global anarchy seems imminent.Yet a single ray of hope remains. . .

So the trip took multiple generations. But about the 3rd or 4th generation people traveling on the craft completely lose touch with the original purpose of the effort. The culture was so completely different no one ever wanted to leave the colony ship when they arrived at their destination.

Certainly happy to discuss the topic here, but I actually think it warrants a bigger and more dedicated thread.

So, here's some of the stuff I'd hope to see...

- What is the best crew size (i.e. 3, 10, 50...more)
-How do you assemble a ship big enough in space (cuz you're not launching something that big from Earth!)?
-How many launches does it take to fuel the ship?
-How many launches does it take to supply the ship?
-How much money does each launch cost?
-what is the propulsion mechanism to get to Mars?
-How do you accelerate such a massive ship enough to slingshot to Mars (or another planet)?
-What is the mechanism to slow down and land on Mars (with living people on-board) (or any other planet)?
-What is the long term plan to survive on a planet like Mars?
-What is the next stepping stone after Mars (if they even live)?
-How do we get there? And how long does it take?
-What will be the benefit to mankind on Earth...IF they can even find a place to go?
-How many generations will it take along the journey to get there?
-Can mankind even survive long term in long distance space travel?
-How much of a bummer is it going to be to have to answer all these "reality" questions?

Warp drive doesn't exist, and it likely won't exist in any of our lifetimes. Teleportation doesn't exist, and likely won't in any of our life times. Quantum physics is great, but humans aren't going to be able to use it for "human" travel in our lifetimes. Worm holes are cool (if they exist), but humans will never be able to travel through them, not in our lifetimes.

C'mon, let's get down to the cold, hard, FACTS of space travel, and 'mankind' being a passenger!

P.S. Voyager (1&2) were launched in 1977, forty one years ago. To date they are the most distant man-made objects from Earth. If an 18 year old man had been placed on one of them, he would be 59 years old right now...and we're not even outside the Solar System...which will take another 40,000 years (in other words, four HUNDRED generations!)

step 1.

millions of deflatable weather balloons carrying thousands of rockets to the upper atmosphere for high altitude launches.
this will cut the risk and cost tremendously

nonstop convoys of supplies and materials being shot to mars and being assembled by drones and robots.
set up huge "makerbots" to 3d print everything on the martian surface

biodomes with comfy living facilities
plant monsanto brand mars ready frankencorn.

Step 2.
once everything is ready send the humans.

This isn't learning to fly.

This isn't climbing Mt. Everest.

This isn't man going to the deepest point in the Ocean

This isn't even going to the Moon.

No, I'm sorry folks, but this is long-term, long-distance, travel in SPACE...the most hostile and uninhabitable thing we humans know of.

In physics we talk about things in terms of "orders of maginitude". Going to the Moon was probably 2-3 orders of magnitude more difficult than climbing Mt. Everest. Just shockingly difficult and complex in comparison.

Traveling to another planet, and colonizing that planet, is like 10 orders of magnitude more difficult! Traveling to another solar system, and colonizing a planet in that solar system, is like 10,000 orders of magnitude more difficult. The scale of difficulty we are talking about here is just shockingly, almost unfathomably, more difficult. It's not linear, it's logarithmic.

If you trained to lift weights, and your best dead lift was 1,000 lbs, you would be a very strong person. If we trained you, and the next two generations of your children to be weight lifters (steroids and all), we might be able to train those children to grow up and be able to dead lift 2,000 pounds. That's 200 years, and it's not even 1 order of magnitude greater. One order of magnitude would be 10,000 pounds!

Think about it.

a reply to: dashen

What are these 'deflatable' balloons filled with for lift? (certainly not helium, and certainly not hot air).

How much lift do they have? (i.e. how many TONS?)

What will stabilize these balloons to launch these heavy rockets into the right azimuth and orbit?

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Marking

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

hot helium.

bout 13k balloons at 12 pounds of lift

launch the balloons into the jet stream to give you a predictable direction and the trajectory of the rocket can be adjusted at launch