Bob Lazar : Area 51 & Flying Saucers... The whole story.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

If you can really believe that for yourself, and it makes you feel better somehow thats all that will ever matter for you...

My thought is that BL is at least 50% full of S but i'm going to look into this anyway - then reassess my BS meter.

originally posted by: moebius

originally posted by: Outlier13
You don't understand what "cognitive bias" means. It has nothing to do with "wanting" anything.

Cognitive bias is a collective term. What I mean here is subjective validation, perceiving something as true because of your belief.

Based on your logic we could use the same "cognitive bias" argument against your ongoing disbelief. You hear a believer of UFOs and immediately your brain goes into denial and begins to process data according to your cognitive bias.

The poster (Salt Lick) says he believes Lazar because Bob has an uncaring attitude towards disbelievers and has represented this mentality since he first told his story.

But I am not denying anything. You have Bob here who lied about his education. Who is talking technobabble about element 155 and gravity (you don't have to take my word for it just ask any physicist out there). And yet you have persons here like Springer and Salt Lick who decided to believe him because of his "attitude"...

You are avoiding what I am pointing out is a contradiction in your statements. You misused the term "cognitive bias" and mislabeled a person who gave a valid reason as to why they believed Lazar. Cognitive bias is not a collective term and once again I suggest you first understand its definition and context before you mislabel people.

Debating Lazar's education is a waste of time. His educational claims were never proved or disproved so it is a futile argument.

Please point to the interviews where Lazar "is talking technobabble" about element 115 (not 155 as you misstated in your above post). And gravity as well for that matter. To the contrary Lazar speaks in very non technical terms about element 115 and gravity. His explanations are very easy to follow and understand.

I would propose the reason you continue to make very poor arguments is because you have a predisposition to not believe in the UFO phenomena. And you have every right to your opinion. However, what I don't agree with is your blanket misuse of words and continued misstatements of the facts relative to Lazar's story. After all...that's all it is. Lazar never came forward and said, "you must believe me." Lazar himself even said even he wouldn't believe himself due to the lack of evidence.

If you don't believe Lazar then lay out an alternative and valid argument that refutes Lazar's claims starting with the interview by EG & G and go from there.

originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: Jay-morris

originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: moebius

originally posted by: Outlier13
You don't understand what "cognitive bias" means. It has nothing to do with "wanting" anything.

Cognitive bias is a collective term. What I mean here is subjective validation, perceiving something as true because of your belief.

I'm with you on this.

There are people who - since they believe that ETs are in fact visiting Earth in interstellar craft - are more likely to believe a story by a person who says he has seen these interstellar craft.

In their minds, Since Bob Lazar's story already agrees with their preconceived notions of ET visitation, that agreement with their own ideas becomes good evidence to them that all of his story is probably true.

There is more than just one group ( ufos are ET) because I believe that lazar might be telling the truth, does not mean I believe that ufos are ET, or this case has anything to do with ET.

What makes you think he might be telling the truth?

You need to reword your question because that is not the correct way to structure it for what you are really asking. What you are really asking is does he believe the content (subject matter) of Lazar's story to be true? Not if Lazar is telling the truth. Those to two entirely different things.

Here's an example.

"I believe Bob Lazar was being truthful when recounting his story."

"I do not believe the content of Bob Lazar's story to be factual because I do not believe in the UFO phenomena."

A person can recount events and be 100% truthful in the process but they can also be right or wrong in what it was they thought they witnessed.

So it really comes down to 2 questions:

Do you believe Lazar is truthful or a liar?
Do you believe in the UFO phenomena?

For the record I believe Bob Lazar to be truthful and I believe in the subject matter of his story. I did not see, read, or hear anything from Bob Lazar that indicates an intent to deceive and I've personally witnessed the UFO phenomena in 4 separate events. All 4 were exceptional.

That aside I find it absolutely baffling any critically thinking human could casually sit back and stare at the incomprehensible vastness of space and actually believe we are the sole planet in the Universe with life. The 4 most common elements life is comprised of (carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen) happen to be the 4 most abundant elements found throughout the Universe.

Yet, it is only on Earth that life exists?

a reply to: Outlier13

So it really comes down to 2 questions:

Do you believe Lazar is truthful or a liar?
Do you believe in the UFO phenomena?

That seems a bit glib and those two questions are straw men.

Apples are good. Oranges are sweet. The statements aren't dependent on each other and neither is a belief in UFO phenomena dependent on anything Bob Lazar has ever said or done.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: Outlier13

So it really comes down to 2 questions:

Do you believe Lazar is truthful or a liar?
Do you believe in the UFO phenomena?

That seems a bit glib and those two questions are straw men.

Apples are good. Oranges are sweet. The statements aren't dependent on each other and neither is a belief in UFO phenomena dependent on anything Bob Lazar has ever said or done.

More misused phrases. Now comes the "straw man" debate. Read the original question from the poster and don't take my questions out of context. I posed questions not statements. They are relative to the Bob Lazar story and have specific application.

His question was worded incorrectly and the two questions I posed are the very basis for belief / disbelief in the Bob Lazar story. In case you haven't been paying attention nearly every discussion on the Lazar story begins with either "I believe / don't believe Bob Lazar" and / or "UFOs are / are not real".

a reply to: Outlier13

You're seeking to reduce someone's opinions to an either/or thing so you can beat a straw man. It's tired, man, but it's the state of debate I suppose.

a reply to: Jay-morris

Ahh good, forgive me, I am glad we can have an intelligent discourse between us on the matter.

the thing is Bob has stayed out of the limelight...he's only resurfaced a handful of times since the first time around.

As to "why now?" this time, I think the bigger picture is needed to truly understand that, all things ttsa, metamaterials, Nimitz etc..

a reply to: pigsy2400
You are correct many knew of Area 51 but almost no one had heard of S-4 until Lazar and George Knapp spilled the area 51 beans.
The following video has the actual video they took in 1989 of a Wednesday night test flight.
5 Things Bob Lazar Should Never Have Known... But DID..
youtu.be...

a reply to: 727Sky

"Site four gate" is clearly on old maps way before lazar came along.



This "flat plain" was primarily used to test "acquired foreign radar systems" against new stealth platforms to see how they would operate against the same radar systems on foreign soil.

a reply to: pigsy2400

Why is he back in the limelight, why is springer advertising his movie, wtf is TDL doing leaving a money machine to get laughed at, why has billy meier had so many amazing experiences, the thing that links three of the four mentioned i know of and is critical un understanding what's going on, meier, lazar and tdl, have came out with mega truth bombs, earth shattering information that didn't even rumble it's crust, on top of these claims followed lies and manufactured examples of UFOs etc, it's the same Modus Operandi each time, truth coated with BS, same MO same hand, we are being set up for something that's a certainty.
Maybe it's the best way to change consciousness gradually into accepting that we are not alone, a long drawn out affair that has those of us that are ready for the big truth bomb pulling oir hair out at the ...king frustration of knowing there's more out there they not telling us, why don't they just tell us...... I have no hair left.

a reply to: 727Sky

#5 - S4? The basics would have been known to some people in the Vegas area. It could also have been inferred by the reported existence of 'Site II.' If there's a Site II, there's obviously a 'Site 1' very possibly Sites 3, 4 and 5 etc.

#4 - This is a one person hearsay account when he mentions having a look in the alien saucer. Then Lear vouches for him and claims to have seen the disc. How did Lazar know when to be there? The narrator says tests were conducted on Wednesdays. Maybe it was known? Also whatever the object was would have been visible to everyone within the same radius, right? This would suggest a great many personnel on the base would also be able to see the flying saucer zipping around and in greater detail than Lear claimed to have saw.

#3 - Polygraph tests are debatable. They proved Travis Walters was telling the truth and proved he was lying. The Thickburn (sp?) angle is interesting. He allegedly confirmed (I've no reason to doubt Corbell's word) having done background checks and says he remembers Lazar. He didn't say he remembered doing Lazar's clearance and I'm not sure he'd be permitted to. In which case, was he implying Lazar was indeed checked or was he simply saying he remembered Lazar? Two different contexts altogether.

#2 - Element 115? Done to death already. The allegations about government agents are hearsay. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was under surveillance by authorities which doesn't therefore mean he saw, or worked on, alien spaceships. He's been a local lightning rod for people with interests in a highly secretive US base, so yeah, someone will probably be paying attention and especially since the movie wasn't being kept a secret.

#1 - Gravity waves have been predicted for decades. Did Lazar say anything he couldn't have speculated from other sources?

I'm not trying to prove Lazar's claims were BS although I personally don't have confidence in them. People say 'couldn't possibly have known' when there are many ways such information could have gotten to him.

It's all interesting from a ufological folklore perspective and great to see it all being documented in one place. I'd like to see a similar treatment of the Contactee movement. Giant Rock, Adamski and so on were brimming over with secret agents, a Nazi 5th columnist, space brothers and UFO sighting reports.

a reply to: ManyMasks

I would guess the timing is due to the possibility that there was a legal or contractual deadline to release the film before some sort of TTSA agreement for the biography kicked in.

A little like optioning a book or script for a potential film. You don’t use it, you lose it.

originally posted by: Outlier13

originally posted by: moebius

Cognitive bias is a collective term. What I mean here is subjective validation, perceiving something as true because of your belief.

You are avoiding what I am pointing out is a contradiction in your statements. You misused the term "cognitive bias" and mislabeled a person who gave a valid reason as to why they believed Lazar. Cognitive bias is not a collective term and once again I suggest you first understand its definition and context before you mislabel people.

That is correct!

A cognitive bias is a systematic pattern of deviation from norm or rationality in judgment. Individuals create their own "subjective social reality" from their perception of the input. en.wikipedia.org...

List of Cognitive Biases

There's tons of them well understood now, and they're like the cognitive underpinnings of Logical Fallacies, but they go even beyond that.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

cognitive bias, objectivity. .
Can you name anything in this world that is objective and something that is not the product of cognitive bias.
I can only think of Maths.

a reply to: ManyMasks

People whom arent slaves to the self-deception that comes with se tribalism, versus those that are.

a reply to: Kandinsky

What is your view on Bob's motive? For him to hang his life on a lie he perpetuates for decades?

If this is a lie, Bob has been living it for most of his life.

For the record, I believe Bob thinks he is telling the truth.

originally posted by: pigsy2400
a reply to: 727Sky
"Site four gate" is clearly on old maps way before lazar came along.

This "flat plain" was primarily used to test "acquired foreign radar systems" against new stealth platforms to see how they would operate against the same radar systems on foreign soil.

If you look carefully, it actually says Site 54, not S4. Lazar couldn't even get that right.

Some reading material for the believers, if you haven't seen these before:
www.otherhand.org...

www.otherhand.org...

www.stantonfriedman.com...

www.alienscientist.com...

ETA: just a little tidbit I noticed. Both Lazar and Corbell refer to this latest release as a "movie" not a "documentary".

a reply to: FosterVS

I think he is referring to the SITE IV area, but you never know.

a reply to: Kandinsky

I’m fairly sure that Bob was interviewed and given the job just as he claims. I think he is being 100% honest with what he believes recalls.

I can see no other reason for Jeremy including Mind Control and psychedelics footage in the documentary other than to suggest that an aspect of mind control was involved.

Elerium (e115) and gravity waves A and B seems implausible.

The sports model is identical to the Billy Meier Paladien (sp) craft.

Seeing as the guys who ran DAVA and hawked the Holoman footage in the 80s were Billy acolytes (according to Vallee), and one even went onboard a Sports model seals it for me.

Likely, in my mind, is that in the 60s, for some reason a core story bible was produced. Like MJ12 Enhanced.

Those were probably the documents that Lazar saw.

All planned out. Why I’ve no idea. Maybe that particle beam device discusessed in that blog is the correct answer?

Lazar - according to the OtherHand blog saw the device
Bennewitz saw the plasma balls it creates
Doty has stated he saw the light beam that stops when out with bennewtiz. Matches the same device described on the blog
Rendlesham - would explain the blue balls, pencil thin beams and maybe Gamma / Proton / terahertz laser exposure.

To me, there is too much of a pattern above. One that suggests that the OtherHand blog has nailed it.

I don’t believe Bob believes he is lying for a second though.