Are UFOlogists Useful Idiots?

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

The Nazi red mercury is still in demand at over $100,000 a gram.
Part of a LLNL program looking for useful idiots back in the 80's.
Quite a few people had exposure to red mercury back in the 1960's many were disappeared.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

Some get turned into lamb chops, some are spared for thier wool

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Not really, in your reality maybe, but I clearly don't share that reality.

All the best

As for individuals, and not to slag the man personally, but I've always thought that Stan Friedman was possibly the most useful idiot ever. He seems like a smart guy, and he has credentials. He's a good public speaker. But for the bulk of his career, that man reiterated the most absolute nonsense about UFOs and aliens from other planets. Him waiving around blacked-out pages that somehow prove his point? And his heavy promotion of Roswell? These are things that seem like someone would promote if they had the very specific agenda of convincing people that all that paranormal and high strangeness stuff was nonsense, and that nuts-and-bolts was the only way to go.

I suspect that he had strong, concealed ties with the military, and they would share confidential information with him in exchange for him pointing at outer space aliens. And if that's part of the insider information they gave him, then they totally played him.

a reply to: pigsy2400

And some get fleeced gathering gold for others.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
As for individuals, and not to slag the man personally, but I've always thought that Stan Friedman was possibly the most useful idiot ever. He seems like a smart guy, and he has credentials. He's a good public speaker. But for the bulk of his career, that man reiterated the most absolute nonsense about UFOs and aliens from other planets. Him waiving around blacked-out pages that somehow prove his point? And his heavy promotion of Roswell? These are things that seem like someone would promote if they had the very specific agenda of convincing people that all that paranormal and high strangeness stuff was nonsense, and that nuts-and-bolts was the only way to go.

I suspect that he had strong, concealed ties with the military, and they would share confidential information with him in exchange for him pointing at outer space aliens. And if that's part of the insider information they gave him, then they totally played him.

He is a great example.

Stan Friedman really heavily influenced a lot of people, including Jacques
Vallee.

Once you have key resources won over, then it's a simple game of
the "six degrees of Kevin Bacon".

Kev

originally posted by: Cauliflower
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

The Nazi red mercury is still in demand at over $100,000 a gram.
Part of a LLNL program looking for useful idiots back in the 80's.
Quite a few people had exposure to red mercury back in the 1960's many were disappeared.

That is also an excellent example.

Kev

a reply to: Blue Shift

Stan is clearly a smart guy, but a smart guy with a rather definate case of narcissistic personality disorder. Have you watched his film? When his wife gets asked whether she would lie for him, watch her, it takes everything that she has got to hold it together. Stan is all in this on his own, in my opinion, he used it to get laid and the whole thing just snow-balled from there, and he found himself a whole crowd of people who wanted to belief and weren't going to scratch too far, because basically, they like the guy and want to believe him.

I wouldn't want to be around for the collapse of his reality, I pity his wife. Been there, done that, never pretty.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

Some people create control from nothing, particularly in the field of UFOlogy.

Back on point, yes kev there are lots of useful idiots, depends on whether the idiot has arrived at the conclusions themselves or has had "guidance" to come an already predetermined point, led to the answer that is wanted but under the guise they got there on their own.

Some of the self professes gurus/magicians (to steal your term) have worked in the military on mind control and psyops of all things... How they don't raise alarm bells staggers me...(looking at you SRI)

There's Bill moore, serpo, bennewitz, doty to name a few that were played and thought they were playing. Theres even some in the field that I used to respect but no longer do as I believe thier objectivity has left them for other woo I just can't agree with.

Hey, they don't have to have dark deep throats in governments spouting alien secrets, some..sorry most of them are career ufologists, they enjoy the subject and get book deals and gigs around the world. Our very own nick Pope is a prime example. The pay might not make them super rich, but thier agenda is to make a living from it, which in turn deters them from looking to solve the issue seriously.

The head of mufon said as much a few years ago, he was shocked at the little regard and interest in figuring out the mystery, probably because it make them defunct and unnecessary.

Rambling now...

a reply to: pigsy2400

Actually... though celebrity ufologists are a great example of
tier 1 useful idiots..

as I stated, I view myself as a useful idiot as well.

There are probably a number of people who are prone to believing
in "the Phenomenon" just because I have spoken on the subject
very extensively.

So I, in effect, provide comfort and aid to people like TTSA..
even though "my phenomenon" has nothing to do with 'their
phenomenon". (because as far as I can ascertain, they don't
know anything factual about "the phenomenon").

So perhaps i should treat this subject like a doctor.. I should
aim for harm reduction for a chronic illness.

Anything I say about 'the phenomenon" will just feed people
doing psyops, and the genuine (according to me) things that
I say only feed a very small number of people, and of those
few people, maybe none of them will actually research
anything.

So the best thing that I could do, would be to stop posting
on my own experience, to reduce harm.

Like I said, I don't want to be a useful idiot.

Of course I'm not actually important in any way... so it
probably doesn't matter.

But the subject bears thinking about in my view, as anyone
who feeds into a system of disinformation and/or lets themselves
be nullified/pacified with potential twaddle is part of the problem
and not part of the solution.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Once a person "believes" in almost anything fantastical... even if there is SOME basis for them to believe.. they become very vulnerable to manipulation by any of the "priesthood"... the people who claim to "known" and who can convince others that they "know".

L. Ron Hubbard is a great example of those who knowingly manipulate people to control them. A well known liar, hoaxer and confidence person who created a religion so absurd it boggles the mind that anyone would join it and yet it grew and continued growing after his death. Other than those at the top, the useful idiots are being manipulated and willingly let themselves be stripped of their money and even place a fake cult above even their own families. Scientology actively seeks out the wealthy, mentally ill for candidates to be brainwashed using negative feedback techniques taught to them as part of a religion.

I think most of us could probably point out leaders in the UFO field that likely have never actually believed themselves. They see vulnerable people who are looking for validation or explanations as easy targets.

Truth comes from skeptics with open minds; lies come from blind believers and those who manipulate them. We see examples of the manipulation all the time.

Look at things like the so called Star Children. Who does not want to feel their child is special or that they themselves are not special somehow? What better way to draw in customers to buy something like overpriced, useless natural remedies.

Once a person sets aside rational thought in favor of validation they are truly easy to take to the proverbial cleaners.

With many it's about the money, with others it's about power and control, but any topic like UFO's is going to attract people who are vulnerable that are easy targets.

I should mention here, I'm not trying to slander those who are truly researching the topic or anyone who has seen things they can't explain, because I'm one of them. The trick is remaining logical and rational in it all and maintaining healthy skepticism, because only skeptics can ever get at the truth and not be sucked into the woo.

a reply to: Blaine91555

I don't believe that you have ever responded to one of my posts before..
thank you for stopping by.

This:

"I should mention here, I'm not trying to slander those who are truly researching the topic or anyone who has seen things they can't explain, because I'm one of them. The trick is remaining logical and rational in it all and maintaining healthy skepticism, because only skeptics can ever get at the truth and not be sucked into the woo. "

Absolutely.

I'm a huge skeptic myself.. I throw out the vast majority of claims as not
compelling.. but as you said yourself, I've certainly had my share of
experiences that were too compelling to throw out.

Even my "signature experience" --- the 'BTUFO' - I certainly lean in one
direction in terms of what it was..but I'm holding the case file open..
there are multiple explanations possible. Just because I supposedly
"summoned it", that does not men that correlation necessitates
causation. It could have been "flying by" no matter what my efforts
had been.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I think you have a healthy point of view about all of this.

Where I think we do a disservice to ourselves, is when we do the math wrong...

Light in sky = UFO = Aliens = total validation for all woo topics UFO.

When it should be...

Light in sky = don't know what is was = lets figure out what it was using logic and evidence.

While being a skeptic, I don't out of hand discount that the unexplained happens and that there are things beyond our ability to understand at this time.

With UFO's my mind tends to looks for earthly explanations first as the most logical. Things like mis-identification, secret military aircraft and odd very natural phenomenon. In the back of my mind though, the possibility we have been visited or will be visited is always there and I'm always open to evidence. To me I'm a classic skeptic.

I think often people wrongly believe that all skeptics are the enemy, when in fact skeptics will be the ones to solve mysteries, not the other way around.

It does grind my gears that so many these days, seem to look at peoples search for truths about things they can't explain, as an invitation to take advantage of them.

I don't post that much anymore in this topic, but there was a time that predates ATS by decades, where I was actively always on the lookout for evidence and proof. The proliferation of craziness surrounding the UFO topics has driven me away. I know I've likely overused this word, but people looking for "validation" rather than evidence or proof have changed the real search into something quite different and as you rightly point out people get sucked in. People, too many people, believe first and question second.

a reply to: Blaine91555

Most people forget what the "U" in UFO stands for....

Probably many of the professional ufologists began their careers with good intentions. They believed they could quit their jobs and devote all their time and resources to finding the answers and evidence, for their own curiosity and to become loved and famous. But only to find there is no evidence. The only thing they can do to support themselves is to sell stories and credibility. So they need to create credibility, to compete with others in the field. Some seem to have been somewhat successful with things like "you can trust me, I am a doctor", or a physicist, or I know someone in the govt. When someone new shows up on the scene with a new credibility gimmick, It has the established pros in a frenzy to debunk them to protect their own gimmicks. Like we saw when TTSA showed up. TTSA seems to have started out with a lot of the game figured out. They have the insiders with the answers, they know everything, but can't tell anyone yet. They can tell a little at a time, in small increments, so they can charge $ in increments, which is a long term business model, which they hope will sustain them for many years, until they have sold all their quasi credibility, or someone else comes along and steals it. They probably have a plan to deal with that. It looks like not as many has fallen for this as they planned.

a reply to: Blaine91555

I concur with you about people seeking validation not understanding.

That's the very reason why I went back in history to the beginnings
of human history and demonstrated how people take advantage of
people seeking validation, not understanding.

Typically, people want some form of escapism..and especially want
a way to avoid death. These are powerful desires, which are easily
taken advantage of.

The experiences and hypothesis that I find the most compelling have
nothing to do with my continued existence after death, nor do they
have anything to do with suffering reduction.

As a matter of fact, if you could eliminate all posts on ATS which had
to do with self-interest.. I'm not sure how many posts would be left..
it would be just a fraction of them no doubt.

Once you understand the nature of a person's greatest self-interest, then
you can easily manipulate them. I'm not saying that self-interest is bad..
but it can certainly make you vulnerable.

Kev

a reply to: AtypicalJ

You make accurate points.

The very last person who I spoke with, who had an association with TTSA,
right before I was given the 'boot' from talking to various people.. said
something to the effect that his/her project was funded by a more
wholesome source than the one I didn't think much of.

There ARE good people associated with TTSA...

but UFOlogy and the Paranormal are a stanky business, on a good day,
with a tail wind.

originally posted by: AtypicalJ
Probably many of the professional ufologists began their careers with good intentions. They believed they could quit their jobs and devote all their time and resources to finding the answers and evidence, for their own curiosity and to become loved and famous. But only to find there is no evidence. .

I think that is often the case, but not always. We have examples of people like Zecharia Sitchin where it fairly obvious it was all about money from the get go. People like Billy Meier where the end game was hoaxing people to feel powerful and of course in a smaller way for money.

originally posted by: Blaine91555

originally posted by: AtypicalJ
Probably many of the professional ufologists began their careers with good intentions. They believed they could quit their jobs and devote all their time and resources to finding the answers and evidence, for their own curiosity and to become loved and famous. But only to find there is no evidence. .

I think that is often the case, but not always. We have examples of people like Zecharia Sitchin where it fairly obvious it was all about money from the get go. People like Billy Meier where the end game was hoaxing people to feel powerful and of course in a smaller way for money.

Yes absolutely. They see an easy way to make some $ and work from home, all is needed is a camera and hubcaps. Nowadays, we see basically the same types doing business on youtube.

Yes.