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Are UFOlogists Useful Idiots?

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posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 05:48 PM
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originally posted by: AtypicalJ
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Thank you for the reply Kev and giving me more to think about, I am always learning. IMO yourself and the many other great minds here is our best chance at figuring this all out.

I agree, money/funding MKultra and other programs they do not want to talk about has to be part of the puzzle.


Well to be honest.. we are all chatting on an internet chat forum,
and despite the title "researcher" that a lot of us have liked to use
from time to time.. "Ponderer" might be closer to the truth.

To do actual, useful research takes a cohesive org chart, and funding,
which armchair-pundits on here (including me) don't have.

Should some sort of organization spring up.. it would be rapidly
infiltrated.

I think the best we can do is to ask good questions on ATS, and
hopefully stimulate the thinking of someone who might actually
be able to make a contribution.

That's best case.

Kev




posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 06:24 PM
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a reply to: KellyPrettyBear


As far as humans go, we are not alien to this planet. It is the whole solar system that is alien to the Milky Way! If the solar system were from another galaxy that was consumed by the MW then that explains why we are not on the same plane as the spirals. Also explains "precession of the equinoxes" which I do not think that it is just the sun and moon giving us a tug; but if the whole solar system itself is off kilter (which is why we see the MW arm near vertical at times of night), then we would "see what we see" as the stars precess (from our point of view). That is where myth begins. That leads to religion and other belief systems like Blavatsky.

You get a weird mixture out HPB. Part astrology, part astronomy (neither were separate from each other until a little after the time of Chaucer), alchemy, and religion with claims it an "old religion" to add further to the mystery. I just went with the other dogma: science. How she spread The Secret Doctrine to others is kind of funny! I like Manly P. Hall's discussion on this. It was so good they made him a Freemason after which he never spoke out loud his ideas. Which leaves us poor shlubs to read, think, understand, on our own.

I think it all has something to do with the brightest star in the night sky.

It is egotistical to try and use science to explain myth and religion but like I said, it is my own little cosmology. I am not trying to convince anybody but myself so I don't get duped into somebody else's Belief System ("BS"!! lol).



posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 06:32 PM
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a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Precession of the equinoxes is prosaicly explained by
how the Earth wobbles over 26,500 years, changing
the apparent pole star ("deity") "in charge".

The Egyptians knew about this for 52,000 years or so,
according to some oral history traditions.

But it's just the Earth wobbling on it's axis.. nothing
"mystical".

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar - Freud.

But whatever trips yer trigger my friend.. I have personal
theories that nobody will ever care about too.

Kev



posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 06:41 PM
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originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
I think the best we can do is to ask good questions on ATS, and hopefully stimulate the thinking of someone who might actually be able to make a contribution.


I've thought that ever since I joined last month.

Irrespective of how many years an ATSer may have been DEEPLY pondering the issue - they may be relative newbies like myself - it only takes one post and startling idea to suddenly reach a "Eureka!" revelation for us all. One day, eh?

Folks like Colonel Halt and Bob Bigelow can gloat all they like about knowing the Truth of an ET presence, but we're left alone do the soul-searching and legwork on behalf of the public we (sort of) represent. We'll get random tidbits and scraps like 'Hunt For The Skinwalker', but the NIDS story is a willful distraction from the all-important BAASS era when Bigelow finally found his ET evidence, or so he says. We're simply left to follow breadcrumb trails.

If we can even find the crumbs.



edit on 25-9-2018 by ConfusedBrit because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 06:50 PM
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a reply to: ConfusedBrit

I've read various NIDS theories.. not impressed.

Oh I was (and still am) impressed by the resumes of
some of the researchers.. and my hats off to them
for being brave.

But if TTSA is any proof in the pudding, none of those
folks actually know anything significant..

If this "phenomenon" of theirs is what they are sticking
with.. then we know for a fact that the "phenomenon"
didn't like the NIDS researchers.. and let them get
close to nothing.. what tiny scraps they thought
they had gotten were just to honk their noses
later down the road.

If this "phenomenon" of theirs is truly as sentient as all
that.. then it would only reveal itself to it's friends..
and that would NOT be anyone I have ever met..
except perhaps a shaman.

I"m calling BS on the crumb trail.. there isn't one..
not from the usual sources.

Oh the "usual sources" might know a little bit more
about classified projects to shake and bake people's
brains.. or even about some snazzy drones..

but that knowledge in and of itself has no value
for 'meaning of life' type yearnings.

So I just call BS.

Kev



posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 07:24 PM
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a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Great thread Kelly. A very good question.

I agree, we're all useful idiots, whether we've experienced or not. Often it's the one's who experienced who end up in this field and even if they are sceptical about their own experiences or even reinforce unprovable concepts they become useful idiots.

Some great comparisons in your Op, I'm going to read the rest of the thread now and maybe chime in a little more.

I've had similar thoughts about a "new religion" though I'd be fearful of another power structure manipulating underlings for gain. Power corrupts. I'd like to think all would change with say a human hive mind. We're not far from that... Until then all information can be adulterated, used as a tool and a weapon. We've not exactly been nice nor inclusive through our history and that relates directly to the points you eloquently made in your OP.




posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 08:05 PM
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Are UFOlogists Useful Idiots?


In a word, the answer is "Yes".

The minutiae is not so simple, however. To whom is such use or non-use directed? By whom is it directed?

UFOlogisits are quite useful to some, imperative even. They are not so useful to others - most perhaps. And, we might suggest that UFOlogists are all but useless, including being profoundly counter-productive -to still others.

The question is thought-provoking but inherently rhetorical. No problem with that! Some intriguing perspectives, as always, posted here!

Carry on - sorry to intrude...
edit on 9/25/2018 by Outrageo because: ~



posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 08:14 PM
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a reply to: RAY1990

Thanks kindly for the kind words.



posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 08:16 PM
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a reply to: Outrageo

The OP might be rhetorical, but to some folks who
have read this thread, there's no 'there, there',
so it seems worth discussing.

You aren't intruding---thanks for stopping by.



posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 08:39 PM
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a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Always enjoy your threads, I always learn something. I'm probably the least knowledgeable within this thread, ignorance can be bliss when dealing with a subject with so much influence aimed directly at those such as me just wishing to understand.

One of the reasons I'm not overly keen to understand anymore. I'm at peace with the unknown so to speak.

I always do well to grasp the concepts in your threads, I'm of the opinion it's never been influence you desire but to convey critical thinking and analysis, in short to teach. One can be grateful for such approaches.

Often I have little to add than kind words and appreciation.

On a side note. Thanks for mentioning that Ukrainian lady and theosophy. Reading up on it now and it's fascinating. Seems to vibe with me. Irony... I drew a very similar image to the one associated with her movement before my first experience, I do enjoy a coincidence.

All the best.
edit on 25-9-2018 by RAY1990 because: Spelling



posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 10:34 PM
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a reply to: KellyPrettyBear




In your opinion, how did a "self-educated" Ukrainian woman from the 1800's functionally take over much of the world; and now days very few people even realized just how powerful 'theosophy' was.. and to some degree still is?


Are you referring to the Madame Blavatsky?

I hope you're being hyperbolic

Her influence has been to the western tradition. Really not that successful I think.

Materialism beat her up pretty good.
The west has been enveloped with it and strangled by it.



posted on Sep, 26 2018 @ 03:26 AM
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a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

She was what she was and would have been nothing if others weren't gullible, eager to confirm their superstitions and of course, greedy for short cuts. My main bug-bear against her is what she did to Anne Besant, turning her from a fiercely intelligent social activist to a new-age zombie immaterialist but Besant wouldn't have turned if she wasn't already part worm. There are times in all our lives when we are open to such persuasion and Blatvatsky seemed to have a mastery of recognising such times.



posted on Sep, 26 2018 @ 08:51 AM
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Hello,
I would like to add to the idea of useful idiots, of which I am very guilty of and may still be I’m still sorting out my own garbage, Also that we all can become one in any possible scenario across a diverse spectrum be it ufo s, religion, politics or activism (insert belief system here).
We all actually need belief systems to function in the presumably physical world, anytime humans get angry is usually because things don’t go our way or the way we believe it should be, there’s this cognitive dissonance that protects our egos.
I feel like Arthur Dent most days like I’ve just gone mad and am chasing a sofa into the ether, I enjoy entertaining all the ideas but would rather not hold on too tightly to any idea in particular.



posted on Sep, 26 2018 @ 09:24 AM
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originally posted by: KristyNaa
Hello,
I would like to add to the idea of useful idiots, of which I am very guilty of and may still be I’m still sorting out my own garbage, Also that we all can become one in any possible scenario across a diverse spectrum be it ufo s, religion, politics or activism (insert belief system here).
We all actually need belief systems to function in the presumably physical world, anytime humans get angry is usually because things don’t go our way or the way we believe it should be, there’s this cognitive dissonance that protects our egos.
I feel like Arthur Dent most days like I’ve just gone mad and am chasing a sofa into the ether, I enjoy entertaining all the ideas but would rather not hold on too tightly to any idea in particular.


Yes indeed.

Among humans there are those who just like to float along in the world of ideas,
and there are those who like to dominate others by means of the world of
ideas.

Like Queen says however, if you "don't choose, you have made a choice",
and that choice is to be used by others for their agendas.

After humans have destroyed all other life on the planet, except cute
pets, predatory humans will have only other humans to feed upon,
destroy and manipulate.

Humans are known to be the "Alpha Predators" of Earth, and are just
as prone to fall upon each other, when no other targets are available.

Just good to keep in mind.

;-)



posted on Sep, 26 2018 @ 09:29 AM
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originally posted by: KilgoreTrout
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

She was what she was and would have been nothing if others weren't gullible, eager to confirm their superstitions and of course, greedy for short cuts. My main bug-bear against her is what she did to Anne Besant, turning her from a fiercely intelligent social activist to a new-age zombie immaterialist but Besant wouldn't have turned if she wasn't already part worm. There are times in all our lives when we are open to such persuasion and Blatvatsky seemed to have a mastery of recognising such times.



It's very interesting how familiar you are with M. B. and Anne Besant.
When i was a wee child, reading Leadbeater and Besant, I had no
knowledge of their former lives, before they got "AATIP'ed".

Yes, M.B. was a master of using other people... a real role
model of what came later. I'd wager she is used in coursework
for modern day psyops training.

Kev



posted on Sep, 26 2018 @ 09:32 AM
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a reply to: Willtell

Yes, materialism "won".

But there are still potent mystical manipulators who
are using materialism for their endgame, which is
still in play.



posted on Sep, 26 2018 @ 09:56 PM
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a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

It's not quite a straight line, Spirituality as we think of it today stems from Vedic text which pre-dates Jeudo-Christian monotheism and the mystery religions.
But whatever.....you should read Joseph Campbell - The Hero With 1000 Faces or watch the 3 hour Interview with Bill Moyers - The Power Of Myth. That really helped me understand mythology and why we need it on many levels.
I think that is what makes us become what you are calling "useful idiots".

The ufo thing is not fully fledged mythology yet but all myths have to start somewhere. The real myths begin when talented literate people begin writing "gospels", taking the story and adding in metaphorical events that tell stories and teach wisdom.
In the modern age of information exchange and scientific wisdom it might not be possible to create a new mythology because if something isn't literally true people debunk it. They should do that. But the down side is myths are super important to societies.

Also ufos might (a few of them) actually be stories of ET craft. But if ufos are confirmed to be true then get ready, fictional stories passing as truth are going to increase astronomically. People have an inate need to create fictional narratives that pass along teachings and wisdom.

If the government came out and said ufos are definitely real and showed us proof, jump forward 300 years and the main "religion" would be worship of ET along with a fictional narrative that smart writers created.

The gospel writers, rather than uneducated farmers were talented writers who were educated and understood literary devices, narratives, juxtaposition, literary inversion, travel narratives, mythological archetypes, plagiarism, euhamerization and much more.



posted on Sep, 27 2018 @ 03:53 AM
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originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
It's very interesting how familiar you are with M. B. and Anne Besant.
When i was a wee child, reading Leadbeater and Besant, I had no
knowledge of their former lives, before they got "AATIP'ed".


It should hardly be surprising, we are on ATS after all, I learned about her here. Have a search there are a multitude of threads referring or dedicated to her. Since you like short-cuts, here's a link to one of the better ones...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I have not engaged in either of their theosophical works, other than to familiarise myself with their methodology, know thy enemy and all that, they fall into the same category as Levenda and Carrier, I am not their audience and I don't wish to fall into their traps. One must be guarded in reading such output, as The Amazing Randi points out, none of us are so intelligent or street-wise as to be entirely immune from becoming marks.


originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
Yes, M.B. was a master of using other people... a real role
model of what came later. I'd wager she is used in coursework
for modern day psyops training.


The thing is though, as soon as you acknowledge that psyops is a thing that can be weaponised you can be sanctioned for it's unjust and illegal use, such as in advertising, as a minor example. As long as you don't admit that psychological weapons are effective they remain effective.



posted on Sep, 27 2018 @ 08:30 AM
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Ah yes, Blavatsky. The occult craze had quite a run. With spiritual "entrepreneurs" entertaining the open minded for almost a century.

And after being pretty much killed off with the WWII and the fall of the Third Reich, it was insta-replaced by the UFO craze. Now who would have expected that?



posted on Sep, 27 2018 @ 09:48 AM
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a reply to: joelr

In my OP, as "KT" would like to say, I took (like I often do) short-cuts.
I have to. To give something a full accounting could take a thousand
pages.

Yes, I'm familiar with your references.. my original mentor was a
published mythologist.

Your final point about the gospel writers is accurate.. and it's interesting
that's what you finished your reply with. Though I suppose most people
would have said uneducated fishermen, not farmers.



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