Who Owns The Water Above and Below ?

You would think that when it rains, it is free to collect. You would think that if you owned property, you could drill down and collect the groundwater below.

To me, this is the biggest commodity to hold on to and invest in, because it is not always free.

We need water to live , and if someone owns those rights to water, they can force you to pay, or worse, deny you .

Certain states made it illegal to collect rain water.

Droughts, water supply worries and population changes serve as catalysts for states to consider legislation related to water conservation and alternative sources of water including rainwater harvesting. State legislatures have considered bills to allow, define and clarify when, where and how rainwater harvesting may occur. Rainwater harvesting is commonly defined as the act of utilizing a system to collect and use rainwater for outdoor uses, plumbing, and, in some cases, consumption. Rainwater collection or rainwater catchment are other terms used to refer to this practice. State legislatures consider factors, such as water rights, quality standards and public health, that rainwater harvesting may impact. In some states, especially in the West, water laws stated that all precipitation belonged to existing water-rights owners, and that rain needs to flow to join its rightful water drainage. Legislators also must ensure water quality standards and public health concerns are met when considering rainwater harvesting legislation. For example, collected rainwater may be used for non-potable purposes (e.g., watering indoor or outdoor plants) but may be restricted for potable purposes (e.g., drinking water). Texas and Ohio have devoted considerable attention to this issue and have enacted several laws regulating rainwater harvesting. (See list below for some examples.) Texas and Ohio allow rainwater harvesting for potable purposes, a practice that is frequently excluded from other states’ laws and regulations. Rhode Island, Texas and Virginia offer tax credits or exemptions on the purchase of rainwater harvesting equipment. Oklahoma passed the Water for 2060 Act in 2012 to promote pilot projects for rainwater and graywater use among other water conservation approaches.

www.ncsl.org...

Underground aquifers are owned by certain entities.......

Who Owns the Water? Pt. 1, Groundwater APRIL 29, 2015 / LEXI HERNDON / 3 COMMENTS Print Friendly, PDF & Email This week we bring you a post from our colleague Richard Whisnant from his new blog: Environmental Law in Context. This is the way the question often comes to me–who owns it?–as a way of asking either who controls water in NC (for beneficial purposes) or who is responsible for it when it does harm (e.g., flooding). Framing the question this way is an unsurprising reflection of the importance of property rights in American law. And property rights do matter for water law. But water, the great solvent, has a way of dissolving preconceptions about ownership of property and forcing anyone who really cares to reexamine their understanding of ownership itself. Things, like water, that are always moving, often in mysterious ways, and that are so vital to us that we can’t imagine life without them, just don’t fit well in simple definitions of “property.” To make matters especially complicated for water, the law has come to treat its ownership very differently as it moves through the eternal cycle in which it always moves: from ocean to sky, back to earth as rain (“stormwater”) or snow, then either infiltrating into the ground (groundwater) or into streams and lakes (surface water), and then passing through myriad human channels, including our own bodies, on its way back to the sea. In this post, I will outline the way NC law treats ownership of groundwater–probably our biggest and ultimately most important store of freshwater.

efc.web.unc.edu...


These are just examples on the vastness of it all.

A basic human need, water, is regulated and denied at will.

I case you didn't know, thought I would share this.

a reply to: Groot


Reminds me of the song "Taxman" from the Beatles


Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Should five per cent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman
If you drive a car, I'll tax the street,
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat.
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat,
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet.
Don't ask me what I want it for
If you don't want to pay some more
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Now my advice for those who die
Declare the pennies on your eyes
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
And you're working for no one but me.

a reply to: Groot

here in new Zealand you are allowed to collect your own rain water as it should be you only pay water rates in the towns

originally posted by: Steveogold
a reply to: Groot

here in new Zealand you are allowed to collect your own rain water as it should be you only pay water rates in the towns

Here in the states, seems like we are losing more of our freedoms everyday.

a reply to: Steveogold


It is really funny, We I America like to pound our chests and claim we have freedom, but, we are one the least free when it comes to nit picky regulations. I love my country but we have given away so many of our freedoms it is sad.

a reply to: Groot

Yep Nestles , the company who pays 5 dollars, for months of collecting ground water to sell, advocated for privatized water.
thread from 2012 There is at least one other thread as well.

This is a potential problem that will never go away. Think Cali already disallows collection of rain water on your own property.

As a country we need to stay strong on this.

I remember reading somewhere that a person that wrote to his electricity supplier telling them that he no longer needed their service because he generates his own electricity from a running stream. They wrote back and said they will charge him for the electricity he produces because they own statewide control of all hydroelectric power generation.

So when faced with laws which that try revoke our God given rights, its best to keep it to ourselves.

a reply to: glend


Sad isn't it, when they own you to the point you can't even go off-grid

Personally, I tend to ask questions such as....

What gives people the right to fly planes over populated areas and put the people who live in those areas at risk of a crash? However unlikely, it can happen.

The Federal government owns all resources above and below ones property (I think 6"s is the borderline below and something like 20' above)
Has been that way for a long time

My ultimate goal when I leave this tiny apartment I have lived in because of a divorce, is to get a piece of property , a few acres, and build something modest to live in, like a little cabin. To truly be off the grid with a water well .

I have a feeling this will not be entirely possible without some kind of government control.

SO having looked at buying vast acreage there are several things to consider and one of the most important is water rights.

How much and from where is quite important and even more important is how old the water right claim is. If the controlling agency decides to curtail water use or even cut you off they typically do so by seniority, so if my water rights date back to 1818, I will get shut down before someone who has an older claim.

You also want a clear understanding of, if you have a river running through your property, who is above stream, and how much they can take out. Or better yet are they dumping crap into the water etc.

I would look for land surrounded by Federal protected/national forest as its your best bet in remote areas.

Kids cant even have lemonade stands no more without pretty much having a swat team breaking it down pretty much.

Hell, they are pretty much trying to use the residential carbon tax for breathing, which they could of made legit years ago when the economy was booming and denied any idea of climate change for years...which does nothing for the environment at all!

originally posted by: FredT
SO having looked at buying vast acreage there are several things to consider and one of the most important is water rights.

How much and from where is quite important and even more important is how old the water right claim is. If the controlling agency decides to curtail water use or even cut you off they typically do so by seniority, so if my water rights date back to 1818, I will get shut down before someone who has an older claim.

You also want a clear understanding of, if you have a river running through your property, who is above stream, and how much they can take out. Or better yet are they dumping crap into the water etc.

I would look for land surrounded by Federal protected/national forest as its your best bet in remote areas.

I do somewhat understand mineral rights and such.

Good advice, and thank you ! !

originally posted by: Specimen
Kids cant even have lemonade stands no more without pretty much having a swat team breaking it down pretty much.

Hell, they are pretty much trying to use the residential carbon tax for breathing, which they could of made legit years ago when the economy was booming and denied any idea of climate change for years...which does nothing for the environment at all!

I totally agree.

America is free !

Right......

a reply to: Groot

Obama's administration was one big power grab.

Remember this?

EPA Grants Itself Power To Regulate Ponds, Ditches, Puddles

dailycaller.com...

And while Obama's EPA tried to tell us...

“The final rule doesn’t create any new permitting requirements for agriculture, maintains all previous exemptions and exclusions, and even adds exclusions for features like artificial lakes and ponds, water-filled depressions from construction, and grass swales—all to make clear our goal is to stay out of agriculture’s way,” McCarthy wrote.

“The rule, for example, is meant to clarify that federal agencies won’t regulate features like intermittent waterways or wetlands that don’t connect to a larger body of water,” she said. “The rule also wouldn’t affect artificial lakes and ponds, grass swales and depressions from construction and other activity that fill with water.”

It was all a lie. I personally know of two instances where the federal government charged people money to build on their own land where there were puddles and grass swales that weren't even worth mentioning.

At one time, you used to be able to find similar stories on the internet, but you have to dig deep for them these days.

The rain water thing is just plain old fashioned stupidity.

Drilling a well though, I can see the need to regulate. An aquifer is not just under one persons property. It should be case by case and not blanket regulation.

A small well for personal household use should not be regulated, but a series of wells or large wells on an agricultural property could take so much water they drop the level of an aquifer and harm others, since they are drawing water from an aquifer than may extend for miles around them or even hundreds of miles. Even aquifers have limited supplies. That makes sense.

The rainwater though

USGS on groundwater depletion.

originally posted by: Groot

originally posted by: Steveogold
a reply to: Groot

here in new Zealand you are allowed to collect your own rain water as it should be you only pay water rates in the towns

Here in the states, seems like we are losing more of our freedoms everyday.

Whenever I read 'The States' and 'freedoms' in the same sentence, I'm reminded of this image,...



...The symbol of American freedom, locked in a cage, in a zoo, just to make a dollar.

It's a funny old world.

a reply to: Groot

Of course, it's illegal to collect rainwater.

After all its "There" Kool-Aid you're expected to drink.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
The rain water thing is just plain old fashioned stupidity.

Agreed.

Drilling a well though, I can see the need to regulate. An aquifer is not just under one persons property. It should be case by case and not blanket regulation.

Disagree. If they are going to regulate, they should start with how many people can this aquifer support if any and everyone who who has any kind of access to it chooses to tap into it and takes as much as they want?

IOW, regulations make more sense if you start with population control and don't bother getting into trying to stop people from drilling holes in the ground on their own property.

The fact of the matter is that there are just too many people.

If you can tell people it's against the law to have sex with their sister (not that I'm in favor of that) you can tell them it's illegal for them to make more people than the available resources can support.