NTS Christ died for the ungodly

“At the right time Christ died for the ungodly” – Romans ch5 v6

We will never understand the New Testament if we restrict ourselves to reading what Jesus said.
The gospel message, from the beginning, was always founded upon what Jesus did.
The Christian faith began with his death on the Cross and his Resurrection.

The teaching of the New Testament is that Christ died for a purpose, a beneficial purpose.
It expresses the fact by telling us that he died for his people, a group defined in several different ways.

This theme begins with a declaration made by Jesus himself at the Last Supper.
One version is found in Luke (and echoed in 1 Corinthians ch11);
“This is my body which is given for you…
The cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood” (Luke ch22 vv19-20).
Both “body given” and “in my blood” are understood to refer to his death.
Mark’s version is that the blood is poured out “for many” (Mark ch14 v24, echoed in Matthew ch26 v28).
At the very least, this extends “you” beyond the disciples who were present on the occasion.
There is no real reason why “many” might not be expanded into “anybody”.

John doesn’t include this declaration in his description of the Last Supper, but he does record similar statements on other occasions.
Twice in the discourse on the good shepherd, Jesus declares that he lays down his life “for the sheep” (John ch10 vv15).
Later he observes to the disciples;
“Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends, if you do what I command you”. (ch15 vv13-14).
These remarks extend the benefit to those who belong to him, those who have committed themselves.

Other versions can be found in Paul’s teaching and in the other letters.

In the verse quoted at the beginning, the word translated as “the ungodly” means the alienated from God. In other words, the “lost sheep”, those who needed him.
A couple of verses later (Romans ch5 v8), Paul explains it as “Christ died for us”.
He applies this thought to himself;
“The Son of God loved me and gave himself for me” (Galatians ch2 v20).
He applies it to the Corinthians, when he tells them that he himself was not the one who was “crucified for you” (1 Corinthians ch1 v13).
Christ gave himself “for the church” (Ephesians ch5 v25), and indeed God gave him up “for us all” (Romans ch8 v32).
“For us” and “for you” can also be found in 1 John and 1 Peter.
But the fullest version of the claim is in Hebrews, where we read that the Son tasted death “for everyone” (Hebrews ch2 v9).
The implication is that the benefit is available to anyone in principle, and available in practice to those willing to receive it.

In all these quotations, “for” translates HYPER, which frequently means “on account of” or “for the benefit of”.
In the gospel passages quoted, HYPER clearly means “for someone’s benefit”.
But many would prefer, looking at some of the other references, the alternative reading “in someone’s place”, which supports the traditional “substitution” teaching.
That is, Christ died instead of “the ungodly”, instead of “everyone”, and instead of Paul and the rest of us.
The high priest appears to propose a substitution when he says “It is expedient for you that one man should die for the people”. His conscious meaning may be taken as “instead of the people”; if the Romans take action against Jesus, the people will not die.
But we are not obliged, even so, to impose the same slant on his unconscious prophecy (as John explains it) that Christ should die “for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God”.
Taken as a whole, this description is about the benefit of his death. It is for the benefit of his nation and for a more general beneficial purpose, another example of the word-play that occurs in this gospel (John ch11 vv50-52)
Again, the theory of substitution draws on the statement that “one has died for all; therefore all have died” (2 Corinthians ch5 v14).
To my mind, this points towards “inclusion” rather than substitution, but that line of thought will have to be postponed to another time.

Another version of this fundamental New Testament statement is that Christ died “for our sins”.
This appears in the basic creed which Paul quotes (1 Corinthians ch15 v3, and again in Galatians ch1 v4).
In this case, HYPER really does have to mean “on account of”.
The point is that our sins provided the occasion for the death of Christ. They are the reason why the death of Christ was necessary. It happened on their account.
Since “on account of” also works for the rest of the New Testament, it seems to me that we can understand the message well enough without needing to bring in the concept of substitution.

The moral of this theme is that the significance of Jesus, when we are true to the message of the New Testament, cannot be contained by “he gave us good teaching” or “he set us a good example”.
His death must be understood as the key to what he achieved..
His death occurred on account of our sins, and it occurred for our benefit.

The implication is that the benefit is available to anyone in principle, and available in practice to those willing to receive it.

This innocent looking inference gives away the fact that I am not a Calvinist. I am not making the choice dependent upon God’s will exclusively.
I’m aware that the Calvinist approach can make plausible claims of scriptural support, though the whole debate makes my head go round in circles.
However, the presence or absence of freedom of choice is really just a point of theory, an academic issue . We are clearly instructed and expected to behave as though we do have freedom of choice, and to commit ourselves to God voluntarily. That is what matters, in practical terms.

The argument between Freewill and Predestination is best left to the fallen angels in Hell;
“Others apart sat on a hill retired,
In thoughts more elevate, and reasoned high
Of Providence, Foreknowledge, Will, and Fate-
Fixed fate, free will, foreknowledge absolute-
And found no end, in wandering mazes lost.”
Paradise Lost, Book II, ll557-561, John Milton

N.T.S. stands for New Testament Salvation.
This thread is one of a series, and I wanted to mark the fact without making the title too cumbersome.
The series is a sequel to, and the consummation of, the older series on Old Testament remedies for sin.
In that series, sin is defined as a relationship problem; the human will is out of alignment with the will of God.

Noice post Dis, I am a big deal fan of Soren Kierkegaard and his existentialism lifestyle
Choosing to live by your actions in the world, not just believing but living the fruit od the Spirit, considering the sermon on the mount as a rule book to your lifestyle

Anyway, what I wanted to quickly touch on is why we as Christians desire salvation, the need for salvation as many people don't seem to want salvation

It's interesting to note Jesus never said be saved or go to hell and suffer.
The gospel message was never a choice between heaven and hell to Jesus
Jesus preached the restoration of a relationship between God and humanity, accept me (Jesus) and I will love you as my wife, my most precious equal

To often I see the church turn this into a heaven or hell explanation when I think it's a desire to find perfect love and perfect peace, salvation in Jesus

Hell is just being separated from a relationship with God and other people

And just because I know the usual a will come in and run this thread down

The bible does not teach humanity is an eternal creature, that being condemned to hell is eternal punishment for humans. It may well be, but the bible doesn't say anywhere that hell is eternal punishment for anyone but demons and the devil

a reply to: Raggedyman
Yes, it's the choice between being in the presence of God, and "outer darkness", which is NOT being in the presence of God.
"Reconciliation" will be a key word.

On the lifestyle question, I think the New Testament message is that faith comes first, in order of time, and the lifestyle follows on from that. Which will be reflected in the order of threads in this series.

Everyone is ungodly right? cause nobody comes close to being like God.

a reply to: watchandwait410
True, which is why some of the references say that he died "for everyone".

originally posted by: RaggedymanThe bible does not teach humanity is an eternal creature, that being condemned to hell is eternal punishment for humans. It may well be, but the bible doesn't say anywhere that hell is eternal punishment for anyone but demons and the devil

Besides all of this in the Bible...


Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mark 9:43 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Jude 1:7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

John 5:29 - And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Mark 9:48 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”



Luke Chapter 16:

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The moral of this theme is that the significance of Jesus, when we are true to the message of the New Testament, cannot be contained by “he gave us good teaching” or “he set us a good example”.

Well that's the thing isn't it. If we want to be true to a book or to Jesus. Even today, people have different interpretations of Christianity. It would have been no different in Paul's time. Paul's interpretation of Christianity would have been different to Apostles Peters interpretation. But I would like to think that Apostle Peter being personally trained by Jesus, would have attained a clearer understanding of Jesus. Apostle Peters words written in Gospel of Mark (John Mark his companion).

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
Mark 10:45

So his death was not the sacrifice, his life was the sacrifice. To serve humanity by showing us the path....

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
Mark 8:34

Paul and the writers of the remaining Gospels realised that the well fed Romans weren't going to deny themselves anything to walk the same path as Jesus. So there was sacrifice. The sacrifice being truth to allow the Romans to eat their cake and have it too. So we need take our blinkers off and meditate on the true path to spirituality. Wary that our ego will try turn us away from any path that includes denial.

a reply to: TruthJava

Yes I have read all that, can you show me in all those verses where it states that hunmanity is eternal.
I get it hell is eternal and people will be punished for their sins but, where does it say people will be punished eternaly

"Everlasting destruction" should indicate once destroyed its no more, gone
Not everlasting torment, everlasting human torment isn't mentioned
You are reading what you want into the bible not what it says

Not denying punishment, nor hell, nor hells everlasting nature, what I am saying is the bible doesn't teach that hells torture is eternal for humanity

and I am not saying I am correct, just stating its not as simple as most people believe and there are many different views

Listen to a good explanation on why some Christians don't believe hell is eternal for humanity www.themeetinghouse.com...

God tortures people forever part 1"

a reply to: glend
The term "giving up life" is normally understood as "dying".
That meaning is explicit in the declaration[s] made when he was dying in actuality- e.g. "Father, Into thy hands I commit my spirit" (Luke ch22 v46).
Mark's gospel also contains the statement made at the Last Supper; "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many" (Mark ch14 v24). The New Testament is full of allusions to the blood of Jesus, which is a way of referring to the fact that he died.
If you're using Peter as an authority, i mentioned but did not quote the statement in 1 Peter; "You were ransomed ... with the precious blood of Jesus, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot" (1 Peter ch1 vv18-19).
When a teaching like the dependance on the death of Jesus runs all the way through the New Testament, the popular modern escape route of "I don't like that teaching, it makes me uncomfortable, I'll blame it on Paul" will not do.

I will concede this much. A few threads further down the line I will be focussing on the obedience of Christ. I don't talk about sacrifice. Rather, I'm describing the whole of his life up to and including his death as a self-offering.
Nevertheless, it is a necessary part of the gospel, running all the way through the New Testament, that the death of Jesus achieved something objectively, uniquely, for the benefit of others in overcoming sin.
Watering down the gospel message to "setting a good example" completely undermines its purpose.

Anecdotal evidence points in the same direction.
Spurgeon in his sermons loved to quote the story of the missionaries in Greenland, how they tried to teach Jesus, and got nowhere until they started talking about his death.
In my own experience, the turning-point was the page in C.K. Watson's "My God is Real" describing what the moment of his death meant for Christ himself.
The death of Christ is the key to the New Testament. The death of Christ IS the gospel. That is why it is sound to follow Paul's example and "preach nothing but Christ crucified".

A man gives nothing without exacting.
You truly and blindly believe he gave. He did not. He took more than we can ever imagine.
A fool gives... Blindly and completely.
Jesus... Was no fool. The ungodly are not the darkened souls you think. The darkened souls are those who stand to lose if Jesus wins. Jesus won.
The ungodly are not the lost sheep. But to each his own. I care little for Grace and honor. I live blindly.
But not without a sense of pity for a good and decent human being who lingers in faith.

Whilst I loyally remain a Roman Catholic By Tradition. I Am A Free Spirit Soul Who Trusts Only A Freemason. I Try To Better Myself Without Painting The Ground Red With Blood. I Prefer The Legendary Checkered Floor. Wherein I Find My Spirit In Check. Always Based On Reality. Black for bitter. And white for better. Reality check. The Lodge is called blue!
Songs of old. The blues ...
Cry a tale or two if you must. But refrain from subtle and clever devise. For certainly it is not the device for comforts. A much more clever devise is to rise.
With Catholicism.... I am betrothed to same ol song of blood and flesh. In masonry I am entreated to sing no song save the silence of a fool who has only to understand. Nothing more.

The more Jesus crap you utter.... The more likely it is that you push away those minds who seek to free you from the gifts of flesh and blood. I like Jesus.
No ifs and buts about it. However.... He's a tyrant.
Two sides to every tale, ol pal. Don't pick Jesus and rant. Instead pick silence. It is golden. There is lesson number 4. The first three lessons I will gladly tell you for $100.00 USD.

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
Mark 8:34

You must deny 'yourself'. How could you deny yourself?

So we need take our blinkers off and meditate on the true path to spirituality. Wary that our ego will try turn us away from any path that includes denial.

Is there actually a 'you' separate to now? Now is what there really is and nothing is separate in now.
The only way that you can seem to be separate is if you leave presence...........in thoughts of time..........'I did this'.........'I will do that'.
God's name is 'I am'........present tense.

There is no path to the spirit.........all paths lead away.

Reality is simply the loss of ego. Destroy the ego by seeking its identity. Because the ego is no entity it will automatically vanish and reality will shine forth by itself.

Sri Ramana Maharshi

originally posted by: watchandwait410
Everyone is ungodly right? cause nobody comes close to being like God.

"God dwells in you, as you, and you don't have to 'do' anything to be God-realized or Self-realized, it is already your true and natural state." Just drop all seeking, turn your attention inward, and sacrifice your mind to the One Self radiating in the Heart of your very being. For this to be your own presently lived experience, Self-Inquiry is the one direct and immediate way."

'I exist' is the only permanent self-evident experience of everyone. Nothing else is so self-evident as 'I am'. What people call self-evident, that is, the experience they get through the senses, is far from self-evident. The Self alone is that. So to do self-enquiry and be that 'I am' is the only thing to do. 'I am' is reality. I am this or that is unreal. 'I am' is truth, another name for Self.

Nobody doubts that he exists, though he may doubt the existence of God. If he finds out the truth about himself and discovers his own source, this is all that is required.
Sri Ramana Maharshi
peacefulrivers.homestead.com...

And i when i am lifted up from the earth shall draw _____ people to myself.

Then the son will subject _____ things to himself... then the son shall subject himself to the father so that God will be _____ in ______.

As in Adam _____ die so also in Christ shall ____ be made alive.


PAN

a reply to: zardust
He will draw, certainly, but some people will refuse to come. Which is why they need to be exhorted.

a reply to: DISRAELI

The word draw is to drag as fish in a net. It has nothing to do with self will. As seen in the other passages especially 1 co 15 which is the very last vision of time shown in the Bible.

This was known as the time of the restoration of all things. It is very clear all things are brought into the son and as such all things are brought into God. This all in all.

Just as all will be salted with fire in order to reveal the divine nature while stubble and hay are burned away. All walk through the lake of fire. All come out having washed their garments in the blood of the lamb.

As in all shall be made alive. The dust man is not stronger than the heavenly man.

There is only one man with one head. All of creation being the body. There is no separation except in the mind of man, the veiled mind, the mind of flesh of the beast.

This is all discussed in 1 co especially 15. A bit in 2 co. Also largely in romans.

In fact Paul breaks out in praise after seeing the beauty of the plan which had been veiled from ages past.

He has shut up all in disobedience that he may have mercy on them all. Oh the depth of the riches of the glory and wonder our God. For from him, through him and to him are____.

From him-origin. The spirit breathed into Adam. But also all things - he is in all things and through all things. He upholds all things with his mighty word. In him all things exist. Where can I go that you are not there?

Through him. — the current sustaining and very life of all.

To him. — the future. And when the son has subjected PAN to himself he will subject himself to the father. So that God may be PAN in PAN.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess/ sweat allegiance.

PAN

Love never fails. No sheep left behind

originally posted by: zardust
No sheep left behind

Nevertheless, it is clear from the words of Jesus that there is a line of division, that some will not find themselves in the presence of God.
They will be excluded from the banquet, cast out into outer darkness (Matthew ch8). They will be among the goats, not the sheep (Matthew ch24). They will not be admitted into the new Jerusalem (last chapters of Revelation).
Whether they are self-excluded, on Arminian theory, or excluded by God's reprobation, on Calvinist theory, they are not included.
As I've already pointed out, if inclusion was automatic there would be no need for exhortation encouraging people to come in.
He calls upon everyone, yes, but not everyone is willing to listen.
The benefit is available to everyone, yes, but not everyone is willing to take advantage of it.

"Every knee shall bow" is the state of affairs at the judgement, when both sides of the division will be unable to escape acknowledging his authority.

Of course Christ is Lord of everything there is, but there is no guarantee that every individual will ultimately be included in "everything there is".

a reply to: DISRAELI

You do know that Christ disagrees with just about everything in the printed texts...don't you ?