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NTS Christ died for the ungodly

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posted on Aug, 25 2018 @ 01:29 PM
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originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: DISRAELI

You do know that Christ disagrees with just about everything in the printed texts...don't you ?



That has no real bearing... These guys just argue and try to impress the next One w/how many Bible™ quotes they have copied and armed to put into a thread.

Just don't ask them how 'they' feel, because there isn't a verse for that...

Any wonder why Chris†ianity™ continues to fight amongst their own selves?


Jesus NEVER said "Pray to Me..." Ever.

WWJT? What Would Jesus Type?

Quick question: What Church™ does everyone thing Jesus would join? You know because He was all about Church™ and what not....




posted on Aug, 25 2018 @ 01:39 PM
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originally posted by: JimNasium

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: DISRAELI

You do know that Christ disagrees with just about everything in the printed texts...don't you ?



That has no real bearing... These guys just argue and try to impress the next One w/how many Bible™ quotes they have copied and armed to put into a thread.

Just don't ask them how 'they' feel, because there isn't a verse for that...

Any wonder why Chris†ianity™ continues to fight amongst their own selves?


Jesus NEVER said "Pray to Me..." Ever.

WWJT? What Would Jesus Type?

Quick question: What Church™ does everyone thing Jesus would join? You know because He was all about Church™ and what not....


The Church Of Merry Making. Go And See Those who Make Merry. That Church is awesome.
Not any kind of Church which chants Jesus for an hour and a half straight. But those who play their post with absolute certainty that merry is all there is because he/they do their jobs well. For me... There is coffee and cig. I merry the sh!t out of that. But the streets wherein Gangsters dwell... Is a house of merry Making. That is the heart of Christendom. And Jesus resides in them and they abide. They keep it real and they keep true and they keep is safe and they Rep it to the fullest. There is jesus. Not for the faint of heart



posted on Aug, 26 2018 @ 08:55 AM
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a reply to: JimNasium

I think you may not have a decent understanding of the true measure of Christianity
Christians turn to Jesus because they recognise the world is broken and they are hurting, the world is hurting. God promises forgiveness, mostly because Christians recognise their sin, also the need for justice
That would be a reflection on how we feel

Jesus never said " pray to me" but He is God so while He didn't say that directly,it's only the fundamentalist ( are you a fundamentalists? ) who would turn that in to legalistic argument
Funny how it seems you are a non Christian preaching Christianity at Christians, does that seem normal to you?

What church would Jesus attend, who knows. What's your point. Christians are all different, different opinions and understanding, they can choose many, any that suit them
Your argument is stupid, Christians can choose what best suits their individual faith and beliefs, it's not a hive mind, we are all individuals



posted on Aug, 26 2018 @ 09:08 AM
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originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: DISRAELI



The Armenian god is too weak to save all people

The Calvinist god is a cruel tyrant that chooses people to suffer

The last enemy to be destroyed is death then comes the end.

The lake of fire is death. It does not last forever just until the age of the ages or the summation or reconciliation of all things as god spoke of before to his holy prophets. (2pet?)




The Calvinist God does seem the cruel tyrant, the Armenian not so insipid.
God allows freewill, choose Him or not
I don't think being forced into salvation is loving, there would be atheists here on ats who would say that if God did exist they want no part of Him
Yet you indicate God will/should force them

I have issues with your opinion



posted on Aug, 26 2018 @ 12:58 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman


Yes I have read all that, can you show me in all those verses where it states that hunmanity is eternal. I get it hell is eternal and people will be punished for their sins but, where does it say people will be punished eternaly "Everlasting destruction" should indicate once destroyed its no more, gone Not everlasting torment, everlasting human torment isn't mentioned You are reading what you want into the bible not what it says Not denying punishment, nor hell, nor hells everlasting nature, what I am saying is the bible doesn't teach that hells torture is eternal for humanity Text

Revelation_19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation_20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation_20:14-15
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation states here that the beast, false prophet, and a specific devil were all cast into a lake of fire alive and that they are tormented day and night forever. I understand this as being cast into a non consuming ethereal fire for eternal discomfort. Other people may understand this as being a metaphor of simply a separation for eternity but the interpretations of this translation do not even infer that.

Revelation_20:14- 15
Being tormented forever means, to me, that this separation is a consciousness of discomfort forever and not an annihilation of the spirit. We are not told exactly what this lake of fire truly is and there are many concepts of this in the many doctrines of many denominations in religions.

Revelation_20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

We are taught that the world will be destroyed but before it is destroyed and totally vaporized, Sheol will give up hell and the sea will give up their portion of the dead and death will give up its authority.

Many people are confused as to why the scriptures tell us that the sea will give up the dead which were in it when it is taught that the unjustified spirits are all confined in either heaven or hell. This is explained in One Enoch as the offspring of the Watchers are not of the Adamic seed nor are they of the celestial creation and are not contained in Sheol. The Watchers, being of the celestial nature of fallen angels, are the male parents of the Great Giants, Nephilym, and the Eliouds. The Watchers are held in captivity in the earth, as we speak, but the offspring of the Watchers, which are the Great Giants, Niphilym and Eliouds, are not either celestial nor Adamic and have no part in the creation of God. They were destroyed in the Flood of Noah and all but a portion of the Nephiliym are those who are contained in the sea. These who are contained as Enoch teaches will remain in the sea as the dead who are to be cast into the lake of fire.

Now if an Adamic procreated spirit is cast into hell and hell is eventually cast into the lake of fire then the next question is, are the unjustified spirits who are cast into the lake of fire cast into this lake as conscious spirits, such as the beast and false prophet are cast into this same lake of Fire? Where do scriptures teach that the spirit is annihilated? Scriptures do teach that the unjustified spirt suffers a second death but does this mean annihilation of consciousness?

Some will insist that the lake of fire is simply a metaphor meaning separation form God, but why would this be a metaphor and who is to determine this as a metaphor? Is it not just an opinion? The interpreters of this scripture have no authority to set their opinions as truth except as it appears to them as truth. Therefore should we not accept this as a literal place of punishment for all unjustified creations being that all will be cast into this same place? Hell is now in this earth in a dwelling place of naked spirits called Sheol. That same place and all that are in that place will then be cast into another permanent place called Lake of Fire. Regardless of how one determines this lake of fire, it is said to contain the Beast and False Prophet as conscious spirits. Why should this not pertain to those other spirits who are in hell also?



posted on Aug, 26 2018 @ 06:22 PM
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a reply to: Seede

I wonder if it's me
I am not denying that hell is eternal, nor that spiritual creatures that have eternal life will suffer torment in hell for ever
The false prophet and the beast will suffer eternally, fine

My belief and understanding is that people/ humanity are not eternal and that if they are not eternal then they obviously can not suffer in hell eternally
I havnt read anywhere in the bible people will live forever, will suffer forever
How can God be love if God causes eternal suffering, how can there be a heaven if I know my family are being tormented day and night



posted on Aug, 28 2018 @ 05:56 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

There is no rape with God. Just the continuing call to love.

A beautiful girl is orphaned at a young age. This girl then is adopted by a monster. By the time she has reached adulthood and able to leave this monsters grip she has been severely scarred.

She avoids touch. She avoids the glances of men, noticing her beauty underneath the homely look she has taken on to try and avert their gaze. Still many men try. Her costume does little to cover her features. Some persist for a while, some try to take forcefully from her, but she persists.

She learns to live a life alone, away from any harm that may come. What we see as a prison she sees as bars on her windows to keep intruders out. There is an ache inside for connection, to be like other people. To be happy. But every time she lets her guard down another scar is formed, and another brick in the wall of her prison is laid.

Then one day she meets a man. This man is different. He does not WANT her. He does not take anything from her, still she retreats into the safety of her prison. And he persists. For one split second she considers allowing him in to her life, to end the agonizing despair of loneliness she feels. He isn't like the others. Maybe she could be happy...

But he is a man. And other men have seemed different, others have persisted, and been kind, until they got what they wanted. She can't again. He persists. She locks herself away so that she cannot hear him anymore.

The girl has become an old woman. She looks in the mirror one day and realizes her beauty has faded. She is old and wrinkled, and has nothing left that men would want, even the man that never wanted her, the persistent one, has finally left hasn't he? He seemed different, but no he is a man like all others. Of course he will be gone, she has nothing that he desires anymore.

________________________________________________
She opens the door and there he is, waiting patiently.

He then grabs her and hauls her off to a dungeon where he makes the time spent with her foster father seem like a day at the park.

________________________________________________
She opens the door and walks out the man is no longer waiting. Of course not. That little hope that he would still be there, how could she have been so foolish. She waited too long.

________________________________________________
She opens the door and there he is. The gentle loving smile inviting her to walk with him.

________________________________________________

God is love and in him there is no darkness.
Love never fails.
His mercy endures forever.
The gates are always open.



posted on Aug, 28 2018 @ 10:09 AM
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a reply to: zardust

it is really only the broken who want healing and reach out in hope of connection

It's a long life, horrible brutal world that offers no real hope

God does wait, endures our rejection with His own tears
Begging us for relationship with His own blood stained hands

What you wrote was sortof nice, well the end is nice



posted on Aug, 28 2018 @ 12:16 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

If there is a an all mighty all wise God

Then he would be the third guy. IMO




posted on Aug, 28 2018 @ 08:48 PM
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originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Raggedyman

If there is a an all mighty all wise God

Then he would be the third guy. IMO



Yes I agree
Jesus invites, not forces, the choice is ours, that's the gift



posted on Sep, 3 2018 @ 02:03 PM
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This series is continued in
Ransomed with the blood of Christ



posted on Sep, 5 2018 @ 07:51 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman


My belief and understanding is that people/ humanity are not eternal and that if they are not eternal then they obviously can not suffer in hell eternally I havnt read anywhere in the bible people will live forever, will suffer forever How can God be love if God causes eternal suffering, how can there be a heaven if I know my family are being tormented day and night

I understand most all people have their beliefs but Revelation tells us that --

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It seems to many of us that we don't want to believe that part of the second death. It is a bitter pill to swallow but nevertheless that is what the message is from Revelation. It seems to me that the entire issue of what is the lake of fire is the solution to our understanding. Could it be another world which is governed by the Beast and False Prophet? We actually don't know exactly what this lake of fire consists of or if there is actually consciousness in this lake of fire.

I have the inner sense of guessing that the lake of fire is eventually the loss of consciousness and not the fire of which most of us imagine. I believe there are about five fires explained in outside literature. The fire of Isaiah is non consuming and the fire of Moses was also non consuming and did not burn flesh. Being that the terrestrial flesh is now gone and only the spirit remains would tell me that this fire is a celestial fire of some sort that does not burn as we experience in this terrestrial body.

I also wonder where my wife is today or if she is conscious or if all of this is just our hope from our own imaginations. If we dwell upon that then it kind of overshadows the NT in time and then we join the world in denial. So actually we don't have much choice in keeping our own sanity and keep focused on the apostles and their gospels. Being a child of God is really a tough road to hoe.



posted on Sep, 5 2018 @ 08:06 PM
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a reply to: Seede

I have no issue of a punishment consisting of a term within the lake of fire, metaphorical or physical
I have not read anywhere in the bible the punishment is eternal torment
The beast and false prophet in charge, highly unlikely, they are condemned, they won't be rulers of that world, that's not Gods justice, not righteous justice

The one thing I do know, those who don't want a relationship with Jesus will not have a relationship with Jesus.

I focus on Gods love and mercy, I hold on to my faith white kniuckled, it is a tough road and there are many questions we don't have answers for



posted on Sep, 6 2018 @ 11:30 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman


I have not read anywhere in the bible the punishment is eternal torment The beast and false prophet in charge, highly unlikely, they are condemned, they won't be rulers of that world, that's not Gods justice, not righteous justice

In respect to your post, I also have not read any NT scriptures directly related to eternal conscious punishments in a second death of terrestrial life. We assume a lot in reading that is actually not clear at all. We do have Luke's account [Luke 16:22-31] where Jesus taught that at this time of His teaching that in the abode of the dead souls there is consciousness and communication as well as discomfort and sight. Then we have the account in Revelation where hell is cast into a lake of fire but then it is all unclear as to exactly the state of this lake of fire as well as the state of those who are cast into this realm.

But then as I back track and read one of the most extensive Jewish renditions of afterlife [ Jewish Views Of The Afterlife by Simcha Paull Raphael] I then see that Sheol was simply a dwelling place for the spirits of dead souls. That is the Hebrew view of afterlife. Some Hebrews believed one thing and others believed as they saw fit to believe. The reason for that was that if Torah did not specify a concept then it was fair game to believe as you want to believe. Just as long as one did not trample Torah then it was permissible to have your own belief. Hebrew nationalism did not believe in a permanent punishment in hell for most all that were in hell. Hell was only the permanent dwelling for the lost souls of creation.

Hebrew Sheol [Hell] was limited to twelve months of reeducation and punishment and then release into the bliss of the Creator. This was the most generally accepted philosophy at the time when Jesus came upon the scene. I believe that because Jesus' doctrine was not in accord with rabbinic doctrine, it was included in Luke's account to show this doctrine of Jesus.

Also we should be aware that the Hebrew structure was at this time influenced greatly by the Sadducee's sect who did not believe in any form of afterlife at all. The Sadducee's held this power of both secular and religious authority through the Romans themselves and when Jesus came into play it was a fallen house of cards to say the least.

Nevertheless, after the death of Jesus and Jesus' brother Jacob became Nasi of the Nazarene's is when hell became predominate in Jewish thought. Jesus had not established a synagogue nor set His doctrine in a liturgy of any sort till Jacob established the first Nazarene synagogue and set the very first commands of Jesus in His synagogue. But the most amazing thing was that not even the apostles were privy to the Revelation of Jesus to John. All but John were dead and knew nothing about two resurrections in their lives when walking with Jesus. There was no doctrine given to reveal what hell really was or what the second death held in store in the afterlife.

I found that astounding to realize that all of these people could live and die for this doctrine and really not know what the afterlife was. So after being aware of this I then realized that I am more informed in the Christian afterlife then even the apostles of Jesus were informed. Jesus gives more to us today then He gave His very own apostles. That is astounding.
edit on 6-9-2018 by Seede because: mis quote



posted on Sep, 6 2018 @ 05:59 PM
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Yes there is a rabbit warren to go down
I believe God is love, just and holy and that precludes eternal torment for humanity
I also believe God won't force himself meaning He won't offer eternal life to those who reject Him
And how can anyone live in paradise knowing that loved ones suffer in hell eternaly

The gospel was never spread on the foundation of hell, it was spread based on Gods love
Jesus never taught he would spare us from eternal torture but would offer us love and relationship, the gospel is not a gospel of hell and destruction, it's love and hope



posted on Sep, 8 2018 @ 03:39 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
And how can anyone live in paradise knowing that loved ones suffer in hell eternaly

Tell me, what does one do in 'paradise'? I mean, actually *do*? What do you do 'forever and ever' ?



posted on Sep, 8 2018 @ 03:52 PM
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a reply to: noonebutme
There is no point in trying to answer that question, because we've been told nothing about it, apart from being "in the presence of God".

Let's put it this way; if we were fishes born and living in the depths of the ocean, how much could we possibly understand of any attempt to explain the life-style of people dwelling on the land?
Whatever life after death would entail, it would surely be as different as that from anything that we're used to and could understand.



posted on Sep, 8 2018 @ 03:53 PM
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originally posted by: noonebutme

originally posted by: Raggedyman
And how can anyone live in paradise knowing that loved ones suffer in hell eternaly

Tell me, what does one do in 'paradise'? I mean, actually *do*? What do you do 'forever and ever' ?

Best I can gather is nothing, aside from sitting around and staring adoringly at some omnipotent thing.

Sounds kind of like Jonestown in a way. Drink the kool-aid and get there, for not much in return for eternity.



posted on Sep, 9 2018 @ 12:16 AM
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a reply to: Nyiah

Then choose not to be with God, why go on about what you don't know

I am going to guess that the whole heaven thing is all about perfect relationship, between people and God
It's not about what you do it's about who you are doing it with
It's not about quantity, having it all, there is suffic, Jesus came to restore relationship, heaven is not physical, heaven is about personal, intimate relationship fulfilled

People think "everything" they want, I think it's everything we need emotionally and beyond. Remember God created sex, God knows what humanity wants and needs and desires, heaven is beyond anything we can imagine, peace, rest and love

Sitting on clouds playing harps, maybe for the catholics



posted on Sep, 9 2018 @ 06:21 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

Well, this is kind of my point in that, what IS the point of heaven or paradise or whatever afterlife people want to call it if it's nothing more than worshipping some one/thing?

At least for people who believe in reincarnation there's a chance or the potential to come back and live again, enjoying the brief moment of 'aliveness' we all share.

I just cannot see what the point of heaven is if all you do is sit there and stare adoringly at Jesus/God, or whoever, contemplating how to 'perfect' a relationship you're *told* to perfect.

Doesn't sound that blissful to me...




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