For those with faith in God: God and the concept of time.

a reply to: EasternShadow
Continue with extra Biblical verses about what God actually says..

He says, "As the rain and the snow come down from the heavens and do not return until they have watered the earth, making it yield seed for the sower and food for others to eat, so is my word that goes out of my mouth."

"It will not return from me idle, but it shall accomplish my will, the purpose for which it has been sent."

Matthew 20:28
even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Romans 8:28
27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.…

James 1:13-15 New International Version (NIV)
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Leviticus 11:44
'For I am the LORD your God Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. And you shall not make yourselves unclean with any of the swarming things that swarm on the earth.

Leviticus 19:2
"Speak to all the congregation of the sons of Israel and say to them, 'You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy.

Deuteronomy 23:14
"Since the LORD your God walks in the midst of your camp to deliver you and to defeat your enemies before you, therefore your camp must be holy; and He must not see anything indecent among you or He will turn away from you.

Proverbs 16:2
All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord.

The conclusion:
“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established”

Westminster Confession of Faith chapter III:

originally posted by: EasternShadow

originally posted by: whereislogic
Nope. And neither does the bible teach that your life is predestined.

The Bible doesn't teach my life is predestined. It teaches some cases are predestined. Through this cases, we can conclude that God does foreknowledge and foreordains.

Oops, I thought that was what you asked me, whether or not I believe my life was predestined by fate (as that belief is explained in the article, also in the introduction I skipped where "fate" is mentioned). That's what my "nope" was responding to. It seems you agree with 'selective preordination by God' when saying "some cases are predestined"*. Similar to his selective use of foreknowledge as explained in the article (even though you don't seem to agree with that conclusion that God’s exercise of foreknowledge is selective and discretionary, so that whatever he chooses to foresee and foreknow, he does, but what he does not choose to foresee or foreknow, he does not). *: you didn't say "all cases", as you seem to want to argue by quoting the Westminster Confession of Faith's: "God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"; that leads to 'all cases' if you want to consider what that means for what you said, so that's different, which one do you want to go with? "Some cases" or 'all cases'? You can't have it both ways, you need to pick what you're arguing for here. Evidence for "some cases" in the bible is not evidence for 'all cases', it's evidence for "some cases", and thus fits what I called "selective preordination" before, especially once one doesn't ignore the evidence in the bible that choices and events are not preordinained in 'all cases', of which I shared some (skipped most from the article). What you see in the bible is confirmation that it's in "some cases" AND evidence that it's not in 'all cases'. So it's selective (details in the relevant bible texts). It would be a bit suspicious to conveniently ignore the evidence that it's not in 'all cases' to argue or imply that the evidence for "some cases" is evidence for 'all cases', like those who wrote the Westminster Confession of Faith are relying on.

I've gone through the erronuous argument that Adam and Eve didn't know the difference between good and evil before on this forum, not sure, but it might have been in a conversation with you. It relates to a comment I recently made in another thread here concerning what it meant for Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad:

After Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit (Ge 2:17; 3:5, 6), Jehovah said to his associate in creative work (Joh 1:1-3): “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad.” (Ge 3:22) This apparently did not mean merely having knowledge of what was good and what was bad for them, for the first man and woman had such knowledge by reason of God’s commands to them. Furthermore, God’s words at Genesis 3:22 could not pertain to their now knowing what was bad by experience, for Jehovah said that they had become like him and he has not learned what is bad by doing it. (Ps 92:14, 15) Evidently, Adam and Eve got to know what was good and what was bad in the special sense of now judging for themselves what was good and what was bad. They were idolatrously placing their judgment above God’s, disobediently becoming a law to themselves, as it were, instead of obeying Jehovah, who has both the right and the wisdom necessary to determine good and bad. So their independent knowledge, or standard, of good and bad was not like that of Jehovah. Rather, it was one that led them to misery.​—Jer 10:23.

Source: Knowledge: Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2

Btw, it's a standard argument atheists and other bible critics make about God to paint him as unreasonable, cruel and unfair (to say that Adam and Eve could not know that what they were doing was wrong or bad or to argue that God preordained their eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad or already knew that was going to happen, painting the responsibility for their bad course of action on God*).

*: As the article I quoted earlier explains (between brackets is mine]:

Consider another line of reasoning. If God chooses to foreknow everything, then even before he made Adam and Eve, he would have known that they would disobey him. But when God told Adam that he must not eat from “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” or he would die, did God already know that Adam would eat from it? (Genesis 2:16, 17) When God told the first couple: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth,” did he know that their wonderful prospect of life in a paradise was doomed to failure? Of course not.​—Genesis 1:28.

Taken to its logical conclusion, the idea that God foreknows all decisions would mean that he is responsible for all that happens​—including wars, injustices, and suffering [as well as what Adam and Eve did]. Is that possible? A clear answer is provided by what God says about himself.

“You Must Choose”

The Scriptures state that “God is love” and that he is “a lover of justice.” He has always urged his people: “Hate what is bad, and love what is good.” (1 John 4:8; Psalm 37:28; Amos 5:15) On numerous occasions he encouraged his loyal ones to choose a virtuous course. For example, when Jehovah concluded a covenant with the ancient nation of Israel, he said to them, through Moses: “I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring.” (Deuteronomy 30:19) Did God establish ahead of time the choice that those individuals would make? Evidently not.

Cause it would make it unreasonable, unfair and cruel to say something like that if God foreknows all decisions. And that type of twisting the bible's teachings is for those who do not want people to know or realize that "God is love" and that he is “a lover of justice.” Those who want to argue against that, those who want to slander the God described in the bible in particular and paint him as something else, something more negative in the eyes of their target audience (or the bible as therefore not being reliable and honest when it's describing Jehovah God, to argue that this is a contradiction or contradictory behaviour from God; whole threads on ATS has been spent on trying to argue this, usually under the topic of free will or the argument that there is no true free will for humans or even Satan. It's probably in one of those threads that I discussed this subject of Adam and Eve knowing or not knowing the difference between good and evil, perhaps it was in one of those threads that we spoke about it before; it's often accompanied with a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of what it meant for Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, a misinterpretation that is more in line with what Satan argued it would mean or accomplish for Eve, a lie/falsehood).

originally posted by: whereislogic
Oops, I thought that was what you asked me, whether or not I believe my life was predestined by fate (as that belief is explained in the article, also in the introduction I skipped where "fate" is mentioned). That's what my "nope" was responding to. It seems you agree with 'selective preordination by God'. Similar to his selective use of foreknowledge as explained in the article (even though you don't seem to agree with that conclusion that God’s exercise of foreknowledge is selective and discretionary, so that whatever he chooses to foresee and foreknow, he does, but what he does not choose to foresee or foreknow, he does not).

I have no problem with "selective preordination by God." It was you who dont believe in preordination. I never mention God preordinate everyone's fate. I only said, God Foreknowledge and predestine based on biblical examples.

originally posted by: whereislogic
I've gone through the erronuous argument that Adam and Eve didn't know the difference between good and evil before on this forum, not sure, but it might have been in a conversation with you.

The first word of your excerpt already nullify your argument. Here, allow me to bold the word "After" for you.

After Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit (Ge 2:17; 3:5, 6),

What happen before the "After"?
God already said, "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Did Adam and Eve understand the word die? No they don't. Because if they know death, they would not eat the fruit. Heck, they don't even know they are naked. So take note the word "After", There are two different conditions, which you have overlooked, separated by the "After". My post didn't say anything about Adam and Eve eating the the forbidden fruit, because it was not the point of argument. The point is Cain and the rest of Humankind are subjected to free will, but not Adam and Eve.

originally posted by: whereislogic
Btw, it's a standard argument atheists and other bible critics make about God to paint him as unreasonable, cruel and unfair

I am critical of Biblical's error, because I do not trust first century monks and 300 years conspiration against the teaching of Jesus. Still, I know there are words of God somewhere, that is unfair for me to reject God entirely.

originally posted by: whereislogic
(to say that Adam and Eve could not know that what they were doing was wrong or bad or to argue that God preordained their eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad or already knew that was going to happen, painting the responsibility for their bad course of action on God*).

Because that was what written all over the scriptures? Unlike first century Monks, I don't have agenda to twist the words of God. unlike first century monks, I believe everything good can only come from God. And following the teaching of James, I don't believe God tempt his creation to do evil. I spent hours to layout God's holiness and wisdom to you. Not a single sentence have I said God is unjust or cruel. What did Genesis says about God's creation? It says, Everything is Good. It is you christian, who mess up with bad translations and bad words, therefore you guys are the one who painted God very bad.

originally posted by: whereislogic
Cause it would make it unreasonable, unfair and cruel to say something like that if God foreknows all decisions.

Why is it unreasonable, unfair and cruel? I already mentioned John Calvin make a huge mistake when he stated God predestined some to eternal condemnation, because the bible say no such things.

There is no such things as God predestined some to eternal condemnation.

Does that mean God doesnt foreknowledge and Predestined? Nope, God foreknowledge and Predestined Jesus crucifixion, which you can't refute. Because You know it is in the Bible. So what is unreasonable, unfair and cruel for God to foreknowledge and predestine Jesus crucifixion? Or foreknowledge and predestine the danger Moses about face from the Egyptians?

originally posted by: whereislogic
And that type of twisting the bible's teachings is for those who do not want people to know or realize that "God is love" and that he is “a lover of justice.”

Nonsense. There are many christian denominations. None agree fully with each other. Can you say the same things about Jehovah Witness twisting the bible from Catholics teaching? Or Paul twisting James teaching of salvation by grace or by work? I bet you can't. You know why? Because justice is painful concept for corrupted first century monks inherited by christian today. Pardon me for my bluntness.

originally posted by: whereislogic
Those who want to argue against that, those who want to slander the God described in the bible in particular and paint him as something else, something more negative in the eyes of their target audience

You mean people like John Calvin and Joseph Smith? They both claim themselves as Christian. I'm not a christian. I am the follower of Abraham's, Isaiah's, Moses' and Jesus' God.

originally posted by: whereislogic
(or the bible as therefore not being reliable and honest

Anything written by first century monks and their conspirators is not reliable. And honesty from something that was ordained by Constantine? You must be joking right? The emperor worship pagan sun god, who celebrate 25th December as the holy day for his God.

originally posted by: whereislogic
when it's describing Jehovah God, to argue that this is a contradiction or contradictory behaviour from God;

God is perfection. The words of God is perfect. The bible is not perfect. Therefore, the Bible is corrupted.. The fruit of corrupted first century monks inherited by christian.

originally posted by: whereislogic
whole threads on ATS has been spent on trying to argue this, usually under the topic of free will or the argument that there is no true free will for humans or even Satan. It's probably in one of those threads that I discussed this subject of Adam and Eve knowing or not knowing the difference between good and evil, perhaps it was in one of those threads that we spoke about it before).

Free will exist. Adam and Eve just don't know it, like they don't know they are naked, until they ate the forbidden fruit.

It is written, yet you don't realize it.

originally posted by: EasternShadow

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: EasternShadow

Time doesn't exist outside Earth.

You don't age and grow in the afterlife. That is why God view children as special creation. Children remain children forever when they die. Forever pure and innocent. Nothing change. Because spirits don't change. How can you measure time when nothing change?

Spirit does not change or experience time.......yet it does experience change.
Have you ever changed?
You experience the body changing, you experience thoughts appearing, disappearing and different thoughts and sensations but the you that is AWARE of the changes does not ever change.
What is seeing out of those eyes never changes.

Do you feel any different than you did when you were 5, 12, 18, 30?
Old people will tell you that they do not feel any different than when they were young......it is just when they look in the mirror it can be a shock.

You miss the part where I write, "...in the afterlife."

No...I did not miss where you write...."....in the afterlife.".
I am saying that there is no 'after' life..there is only death for that which believes it is a 'thing that is alive'.
There isn't any THING alive now! There is only LIFE.
Life is one.....it is not made of things.

Buddhism doesn't have the concept of afterlife. Even the enlightened Gautama Buddha can't answer what happen after the state of nirvana. In Buddhism, you either rebirth or cease into nothingness. Buddha called the state of nothingness as Nirvana. I called it permenant second death. Buddha called the state of Nirvana is the perfect state of ending the suffering. I called it the perfect way to have your soul destroy for eternity.

Maybe Buddhism does not have a concept for 'after life' because there is no 'after'..........there is only TIMELESS BEING.
When you realise what you actually are..you may realise that you are eternal........
Nothing happens 'after' nivarna because nothing is happening now! However, you may feel as if life is happening to you....and that you are doing life. The only change is that it is found that there is only life and it is not happening to you and you do nothing and have never done anything.
Nirvana is Samara.

The choice is ours to make. Do you want to escape infinite rebirth cycle by becoming nothingness/dead, or do you want to live happily for eternity along with God?

Are you living happily with God now? Or is it your belief that 'living happily with God' only happens after the body and mind die?

a reply to: EasternShadow

The words of God is perfect.

What words would they be?

As for God, his way is upright; the word of God is pure; he is a shield to all those who take refuge in him. Psalm 18:30.

Gods way is upright................imagine a cross (+) ...notice the upright line in the cross - that is God. See the horizontal line - that is man.
God is NOW and man is in time.

That which is now is seeing and knowing what is actually now.................but man does not see now because now is divided into 'before' and 'after' - so he can appear to have a life of his own.....but in time 'things' die.

If you realise that you are actually always now seeing and knowing what is now (thought/language can only appear now) then you have found the truth...which was never not here!

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
No...I did not miss where you write...."....in the afterlife.".
I am saying that there is no 'after' life..there is only death for that which believes it is a 'thing that is alive'.
There isn't any THING alive now! There is only LIFE.
Life is one.....it is not made of things.

I know. I already expected you are going to write the "No Afterlife" argument.

Life is not made of things. Life is the breath of God. If you die, you will return to God ( or Hindu concept of "Brahma", supreme being God the Creator). Only those who are righteous following the way of prophets remain eternal with God. Gautama Buddha doesn't teach you this.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
Maybe Buddhism does not have a concept for 'after life' because there is no 'after'..........there is only TIMELESS BEING.
When you realise what you actually are..you may realise that you are eternal......

I have a beginning. My "self" begin when I first breath the air inside my mother's womb. Because I have a beginning, the "I" in me isn't timeless. Unless you are speaking about endless rebirth cycles, then it is different matter. Even so, the previous "I" has lost all connection to the karma, therefore, to make sense of timeless from countless rebirths is futile.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
Nothing happens 'after' nivarna because nothing is happening now! However, you may feel as if life is happening to you....and that you are doing life. The only change is that it is found that there is only life and it is not happening to you and you do nothing and have never done anything.
Nirvana is Samara.

Exactly. There is nothing. There is no "you". It's death. Everything has gone. Christian, Judaism, Islam and other religions followers don't want to be nothing. They expect there is something else out of this mortal realm or rebirth trap. It's a hope Gautama Buddha isn't familiar with.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
Are you living happily with God now? Or is it your belief that 'living happily with God' only happens after the body and mind die?

I am suffering, yes. But I do not run away from it. Instead, I welcome it with clear mind and patience. I'm not going to cease all my flesh desire just to be nothing. My flesh is created to work in harmony with others, no matter what suffering Gautama Buddha laid out in his principles. There are reason why living and desire are tied together.

It's for that same reason, I desire to continue living after the body and mind die, without endless rebirth cycles of course. Whatever karma befell upon me, it should be justified after the mind and body die.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
What words would they be?

The Words that God himself start with "I am who I would be I am.."
It contained every things without errors, contradiction and powerful message. The self divination words forever reside in human memory. You will know it by heart.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
If you realise that you are actually always now seeing and knowing what is now (thought/language can only appear now) then you have found the truth...which was never not here!

It doesn't stop me from looking back the things/events left behind and what has not yet happening.

It doesn't stop me from looking back the things/events left behind and what has not yet happening.

Why would you need to look back or forward? Is it because you do not trust, or have faith?

As for God, his way is upright; the word of God is pure; he is a shield to all those who take refuge in him. Psalm 18:30.

Gods way is upright................imagine a cross (+) ...notice the upright line in the cross - that is God. See the horizontal line - that is man.
God is NOW (where the ONE true life is) and man lives is in linear time (that is not here ever).

Now is what there is...if you bring the past here then you will be full of guilt and blame............stay with God and you will be shielded.
You do not have to manage life............because life is what is happening now.............no one is doing now.........now is DONE as it is in Heaven.

"I am who I would be I am.."

I think you mean........'I am that I am'.

Would you please provide a link for where you found 'I am who I would be I am'? I have looked online but can't find it....all that came up was 'I am that I am'.
"I am that I am" has no time in it.
God is seeing and knowing what just IS. (This is God's justice - it just IS.)
But IS is not seen because what is seen by man is... 'it shouldn't be like this...........it should be different' the reasoning is...'If I had done the past different then this would not be happening'....'I will not do that again...in the future I will do it different'.
What is IS regardless of what thought says.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Exactly. There is nothing. There is no "you". It's death. Everything has gone. Christian, Judaism, Islam and other religions followers don't want to be nothing. They expect there is something else out of this mortal realm or rebirth trap. It's a hope Gautama Buddha isn't familiar with.

What do you suppose you are? Have you even considered looking for what you really are? Where would you look and when?

originally posted by: EasternShadow
It was you who dont believe in preordination.

Then you misunderstood me. Perhaps because I misunderstood your question when you asked: "So you don't believe in predestined or fate?" My "nope" was not referring to not believing in preordination but was referring to not believing my life was predestined by fate as that belief is explained in the article (which I first thought you were referring to with that question). I believe that God preordains specific events, such as the birth of Jesus. But that is not to be confused with the Westminster Confession of Faith, where it is claimed that God preordains "whatsoever comes to pass" "from all eternity", which is all events, not just specific events. When it's just specific events it can be called "selective preordination by God." Since you now mentioned:

I have no problem with "selective preordination by God."

I'm still somewhat left to wonder why you quoted the Westminster Confession of Faith though, since they propose an incompatible or opposite view of the matter, if God preordains all events, it's not selective, i.e. unselective, the opposite. Since you quoted this phrase from them, it seems you 'have no problem' with "unselective preordination by God" either. You can't have your cake and eat it too when it comes to 2 contradictory views/beliefs (or opposites). I for one can clearly see evidence in the bible that the Westminster Confession of Faith is wrong. The article of which I skipped most bible quotations is riddled with them (examples in the bible where God clearly has not preordained an event or choice someone can make, along with examples where God does not know something in advance).

Did Adam and Eve understand the word die?

Yes, they had seen animals die. Plus, they were not created stupid:

Adam was a perfect son of God, made in His ‘image and likeness.’ But since “God is a Spirit,” the resemblance could not be physical. (Genesis 1:26; John 4:24) The likeness lay in qualities that elevated man far above the animals. Yes, implanted in man from the beginning were the qualities of love, wisdom, power, and justice. He was endowed with free will and a capacity for spirituality. An innate moral sense, or conscience, enabled him to distinguish right from wrong. Man had intellectual capacity, enabling him to meditate on the reason for the existence of humans, to accumulate knowledge of his Creator, and to develop intimacy with that One.

Source: We Can Learn From the First Human Couple

originally posted by: EasternShadow
No they don't. Because if they know death, they would not eat the fruit.

Eve was thoroughly deceived by Satan who said she wasn't going to die if she ate.

Coming back to the topic of foreknowledge for a moment (rather than preordination, since we started with talking about foreknowledge), it also touches on the topic of Adam and Eve being able to distinguish right from wrong, good from bad (I'll bold it):

Did God Know That Adam and Eve Would Sin?

...The thought that ‘God knows everything’ may easily lead some to the conclusion that God must have known beforehand that Adam and Eve would disobey him.

If God truly had foreknown that this perfect couple would sin, what would this imply? Such a notion would attribute many negative traits to God. He would seem to be unloving, unjust, and insincere. Some might label it cruel to expose the first humans to something that was foreknown to end badly. God might seem responsible for​—or at least an accomplice to—​all the badness and suffering that followed throughout history. To some, our Creator would even appear foolish.
..
“It Was Very Good”

Regarding God’s creation, including the first humans on earth, the Genesis account says: “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good.” (Genesis 1:31) Adam and Eve were perfectly made, ideally suited to their earthly environment. There was nothing deficient in their makeup. Created “very good,” they were certainly capable of the good conduct that was required of them. They were created “in God’s image.” (Genesis 1:27) So they had the capacity to demonstrate to some degree the godly qualities of wisdom, loyal love, justice, and goodness. Reflecting such qualities would help them to make decisions that would benefit them and bring pleasure to their heavenly Father.

Jehovah endowed these perfect, intelligent creatures with free will. So they were by no means preprogrammed to please God​—like some sort of robot. Think about it. Which would mean more to you​—a gift that is given mechanically or one that comes from the heart? The answer is obvious. Likewise, if Adam and Eve had freely chosen to obey God, their obedience would have meant all the more to him. The capacity to choose enabled the first human pair to obey Jehovah out of love.​—Deuteronomy 30:19, 20.

Righteous, Just, and Good

.. (Genesis 2:16, 17) The first couple were given a choice between endless life and death. Would it not have been hypocritical for God to warn them against a specific sin while already knowing the bad outcome? As “a lover of righteousness and justice,” Jehovah would not have offered a choice that in reality did not exist.

Jehovah is also abundant in goodness. (Psalm 31:19) Describing God’s goodness, Jesus said: “Who is the man among you whom his son asks for bread​—he will not hand him a stone, will he? Or, perhaps, he will ask for a fish​—he will not hand him a serpent, will he? Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?” (Matthew 7:9-11) God gives “good things” to his creatures. The way humans were created and the Paradise home prepared for them testify to God’s goodness. Would such a good Sovereign be so cruel as to provide a beautiful home that he knew would be taken away? No. Our righteous and good Maker is not to blame for man’s rebellion.

“Wise Alone”

...
On the other hand, there were also occasions when the bad conduct of certain individuals caused God to “feel hurt.” Would he have felt such pain if he had long known what they would do?​—Psalm 78:40, 41; 1 Kings 11:9, 10.

Thus, it is only reasonable to conclude that the all-wise God did not exercise his ability of foreknowledge to know in advance that our first parents would sin. He was not so foolish as to embark on a bizarre venture, using his ability to know the outcome in advance and then staging a mere rerun of what he already knew.
..
God’s adversary, Satan, ... Driven by bad motives himself, he strives to attribute bad motives to our loving Creator. It suits him well to shift the blame for man’s sin to Jehovah.

The quality of love is the strongest reason why Jehovah chose not to know in advance that Adam and Eve would sin. .. Love is positive, not negative. It looks for the good in others. Yes, motivated by love, Jehovah God wanted the best for the first human pair.

Even though God’s earthly children had the option of making an unwise choice, our loving God was not inclined to be pessimistic or to be suspicious of his perfect creatures. He had amply provided for them and had equipped them well.

originally posted by: whereislogic
But that is not to be confused with the Westminster Confession of Faith, where it is claimed that God preordains "whatsoever comes to pass" "from all eternity", which is all events, not just specific events. When it's just specific events it can be called "selective preordination by God."

We have different understanding with the term "whatsoever comes to pass" and "from all eternity".
To you, these two sentences refer to all events.
To me, the "whatsoever come to pass", refer to undetermined events, or in simple word, the Winstminster Confession of Faith simply said, "I'm too lazy to provide the details, therefore, whatsoever will do.."Not that I find it's critical to the context. .

originally posted by: whereislogic
You can't have your cake and eat it too when it comes to 2 contradictory views/beliefs (or opposites). I for one can clearly see evidence in the bible that the Westminster Confession of Faith is wrong. The article of which I skipped most bible quotations is riddled with them (examples in the bible where God clearly has not preordained an event or choice someone can make, along with examples where God does not know something in advance).

Nope. There is no contradictory on my part, because I don't read "whatsoever come to pass," as "everything come to pass.."

Neither do I find fault with "from all eternity" because it is in agreement with Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

originally posted by: whereislogic
Yes, they had seen animals die. Plus, they were not created stupid:

Stupidity does not equal innocent. Children are not created stupid either, but they still play with fire when you tell them not to. In case, you haven't notice, Adam's and Eve's brain are like any ordinary human infant. They're not developed maturely. How do I know? First, they are not born with knowledge to know the names of all living creatures. God teach them. Second, Adam does not know why there is darkness when night time ( refer to Gospel of Adam and Eve, Apparently, there is no night at Eden ). God teach him not to be afraid because it is night time. And lastly, Adam and Eve don't know they are being naked ( omg! ), or rather feel ashamed being naked. It is written in Genesis.

They become like God, ( the image of God ), AFTER they eat the fruit of knowing Good and Evil. When they do, Everything change. They experience things they never feel before, like shame, guilt and afraid. This can only done if free will can be exercised. Before this, there is zero evidence that free will exist. The fruit of Knowing of good and evil is the figurative free will. Without the fruit there is no free will.

Ask yourself, why would God plant the tree of knowing good and evil if he doesnt want anyone to eat it? What good is the tree to God? Why does God create freewill for human? He has his perfect obedient Angels as his robotic slaves already, but why need to design autonomous creation to fill the Earth and Heaven?

Don't you see it? Go on, ask yourself.

originally posted by: whereislogic
Adam was a perfect son of God, made in His ‘image and likeness.’

A perfect son does not disobey his father. Understandable it is not Adam's fault. However, this only prove the lack of Adam's intelligence to distinguish between good and evil, before eating the apple. I use "apple" here, instead of fruit of knowing good and evil, because apple is shorter to type and because...Adam's apple.

originally posted by: whereislogic
But since “God is a Spirit,” the resemblance could not be physical. (Genesis 1:26; John 4:24) The likeness lay in qualities that elevated man far above the animals. Yes, implanted in man from the beginning were the qualities of love, wisdom, power, and justice. He was endowed with free will and a capacity for spirituality. An innate moral sense, or conscience, enabled him to distinguish right from wrong. Man had intellectual capacity, enabling him to meditate on the reason for the existence of humans, to accumulate knowledge of his Creator, and to develop intimacy with that One.
Source: We Can Learn From the First Human Couple

Nature dictate that, intelligence doesn't magically appear. Not one living being be able to inform any object around them, when they are born. Consciousness isn't the same as intelligence. Wisdom has to be learn, starting from tasting milk, crawling, identifying and associating trust to your parent and guardian. The basic for intelligence is intinct for survival. Even animal follow this rule. Adam and Eve are no exception.

The first evidence of exercising freewill is not Adam's disobedience. It was the act of Cain murdering his brother Abel. It marks the beginning of tense relationship between God and human for the next century to come.. A constant prolong battle between God's authority and human freewill. Only rectify later by Jesus' death.

originally posted by: EasternShadow
Eve was thoroughly deceived by Satan who said she wasn't going to die if she ate.

And you still insist Adam and Eve was perfect? Surely one intelligent perfect human would trust his father, rather than a stranger? Father said don't eat. But Eve said, No. Let's eat..because this unnamed scale monster said it is good. This you called wisdom of the image of god? Seriously? More like toddler who are tempted with ice-cream by stalker, to me.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Would you please provide a link for where you found 'I am who I would be I am'? I have looked online but can't find it....all that came up was 'I am that I am'.

אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה‬, ’ehyeh ’ăšer ’ehyeh

I am who I am = is common English Translation.

But there is no present tense for the word "to be" in Hebrew language. Therefore, "I will be what I will be", or "I create what(ever) I create," are both accepted by translators.
en.m.wikipedia.org...


I choose to combine "am" with "would be" to reflect God is Timeless Past, Present and Future. Because that is what God is. Timeless or eternity. What your watch inform you, may not what you experience in actuality when you pray to God. Time just stop. Everything stop. The world turn static. No motion. No changes.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Thank you for your reply.
I have read the wiki link and it is very interesting.

'I am being all there is, all there was and all there ever will be'....could be another way of saying 'I am that I am'.

I also think that God is the absolute truth and the son is the relative truth.....God is the unseen source of all that appears (the son).

heaven only has the rules that god set for it.

originally posted by: Damla
heaven only has the rules that god set for it.

There are no rules.............'what is' arises without condition.

originally posted by: RobFox
will my relatives that are still here on Earth the moment I die be in heaven when I get there?

Not all of them. what would you do with some stubborn suckers anyway.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

you have picked a very wrong path.