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Apache Killings

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posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by blowin
Sorry about the double post; I was trying to edit the original to reflect that Amuk had posted the comment.


Which is fine, except you edited it to make it seem like my words were Souljahs and his words were mine.

Here is the original before you swapped it around


Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by Souljah
but who ever these people were,
they had no chance at all against such a beast.
not without any anti-aircraft weapons.
then this apache is toast.


When has war been about a fair fight?

Both sides use the means at their disposal

yes,
i agree with you.

there is only one rule:
NO RULES!

just like street fighting.
first hint you are going to get in the street:
"if you gotta fight, fight DIRTY!"

and both sides are doing just that.

we wont go into this "who started first" crap.


the words you say that he said were said by me and visi-versa




posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:29 AM
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Ok, i may be new to ATS, but i think its time we got back to what the thread is all about.

JamesBlonde saw an edited, false acoount of what was happening, and called the insurgents " Turnip farmers".

This has been proved wrong by the full length footage, as if they had been "turnip farmers", there would of been no mad scramble to get into the long bag, containing a tube shaped object.

Plain and simple, if they had been innocent and wanting to live, they would of stuck their hands so high, it would of been visible to the pilots. They did not.

This is the issue here, that some one posted about a video clip that was edited to make the apache crew look bad.

The apache crew, far from being bad, acted in a proffesional manner, calm and efficiently, and did the right thing. There is nothing more dangerous in this world than letting an injuerd terrorist live, as till they are dead, they will be hell bent on making sure you are.

10/10 for the apache pilots.



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:32 AM
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Originally posted by MadGrimbo
Ok, i may be new to ATS, but i think its time we got back to what the thread is all about.

JamesBlonde saw an edited, false acoount of what was happening, and called the insurgents " Turnip farmers".

This has been proved wrong by the full length footage, as if they had been "turnip farmers", there would of been no mad scramble to get into the long bag, containing a tube shaped object.

Plain and simple, if they had been innocent and wanting to live, they would of stuck their hands so high, it would of been visible to the pilots. They did not.

This is the issue here, that some one posted about a video clip that was edited to make the apache crew look bad.

The apache crew, far from being bad, acted in a proffesional manner, calm and efficiently, and did the right thing. There is nothing more dangerous in this world than letting an injuerd terrorist live, as till they are dead, they will be hell bent on making sure you are.

10/10 for the apache pilots.


Thank you Mad for refocusing this thread. I agree with your statement 100%



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 01:23 AM
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Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by blowin
Sorry about the double post; I was trying to edit the original to reflect that Amuk had posted the comment.


Which is fine, except you edited it to make it seem like my words were Souljahs and his words were mine.

Here is the original before you swapped it around


Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by Souljah
but who ever these people were,
they had no chance at all against such a beast.
not without any anti-aircraft weapons.
then this apache is toast.


When has war been about a fair fight?

Both sides use the means at their disposal

yes,
i agree with you.

there is only one rule:
NO RULES!

just like street fighting.
first hint you are going to get in the street:
"if you gotta fight, fight DIRTY!"

and both sides are doing just that.

we wont go into this "who started first" crap.


the words you say that he said were said by me and visi-versa


That would be why I edited it! I have no idea how the original post came out that way; whatever I did, I didn't do intentionally.

I note that you have not chosen to address the substance of my post.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 06:04 AM
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Originally posted by cruzion
At least those dumbasses in the 'copter could spell courageous.


I like how people fall back on the spelling mistakes when they have no other avenue of rejoinder... a true mark of the ignorant


-Smokinjoe



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 06:12 AM
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Originally posted by smokinjoe

Originally posted by cruzion
At least those dumbasses in the 'copter could spell courageous.


I like how people fall back on the spelling mistakes when they have no other avenue of rejoinder... a true mark of the ignorant


-Smokinjoe


Indeed, the last feeble thrust of the defeated.


How DO you spell that anyway? Two q's and a small f isn't it.

I wonder if these types have ever heard of a typographical error?



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 06:41 AM
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Originally posted by JamesBlonde
Well I am sure that three men and three soft skinned vehicles warrant that kind of attention in US military logic i.e. killing an ant with a sledgehammer.

It just looks like target practise to me. The voices of the pilots do not mention what the guy buy the tractor is doing nor do they show and sign of stress that fire might be returned. The clip has a routine feel to it.


Yes it's strange to me also - they didn't seem to be acting in an aggressive way to me... actually the two in the truck could have been terrorists stopped to talk/threaten a guy on a tractor - poor guy.. wrong place, wrong time. It is also strange that the guy who was "vaporised" walked out into the open after coming under fire - is it not a basic military tactic to seek cover when on is under fire? This to me could disprove the assumption that these people were indeen combatents.

Anyway someone said earlier that apache pilots are professional... looking at this I would say they are nothing more than coward dogs... I hope the old addage stands true:

Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

For those that disagree I ask this:

In the same situation would you take out the wounded guy? Really would you?



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 06:54 AM
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Originally posted by smokinjoe


Anyway someone said earlier that apache pilots are professional... looking at this I would say they are nothing more than coward dogs... I hope the old addage stands true:


I would say callous, but that is what they are payed for I suppose.



In the same situation would you take out the wounded guy? Really would you?


On further thought if their was evidence or i has reason to believe that this guy was not hors de combat and had a means of retaliation then yes I certainly would. The circumstances of this clip are too uncertain and it has been brought to my attention that it may have been modified for propaganda purposes.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 07:14 AM
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As for the typo, I just thought it ironic that someone would call an Apache pilot/co-pilot a 'dumbass', when they couldn't even check their post for miss-spellings. The most amusing part is, that this person has absolutely no idea of the hard work, dedication, studying and training that it takes to be an Apache pilot. This same guy, who is obviously much, much smarter than your average combat air force pilot, probably has a job pushing paper for $12 an hour, and would crap his pants if he was assaulted on the street, never mind having armed turnip picking enemy combatants trying to kill him.
Another thing, I'm pretty damn sure if Iraqi pilots had Apache's equiped with the same technology, they would be doing the exact same thing that these guys are. I mean, who wouldn't??
Did you want to see them land the 'copter, get out, take off their helmets, and engage in some hand to hand? Would that vindicate them in your mind?
Perhaps you think it unfair that anyone should have a technological advantage over another adversary? Indeed it is unfair - but the object of war, if you have not already worked this out with your 168 IQ, is to kill the enemy, and not be killed. The Apache video is an excellent example of how to do just that. Wether you are for/against/indefferent to war, there's no denying that that pilot, with that vehicle, with those weapons, that technology, and that information network that backs him up, is not an amazing feat.
Well, actually, you would. Coz your so much smarter than everyone else.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by cruzion
As for the typo, I just thought it ironic that someone would call an Apache pilot/co-pilot a 'dumbass', when they couldn't even check their post for miss-spellings. The most amusing part is, that this person has absolutely no idea of the hard work, dedication, studying and training that it takes to be an Apache pilot. This same guy, who is obviously much, much smarter than your average combat air force pilot, probably has a job pushing paper for $12 an hour, and would crap his pants if he was assaulted on the street,

Right on!


never mind having armed turnip picking enemy combatants trying to kill him.

ROFLMAO


Another thing, I'm pretty damn sure if Iraqi pilots had Apache's equiped with the same technology, they would be doing the exact same thing that these guys are. I mean, who wouldn't??
Did you want to see them land the 'copter, get out, take off their helmets, and engage in some hand to hand? Would that vindicate them in your mind?
Perhaps you think it unfair that anyone should have a technological advantage over another adversary? Indeed it is unfair - but the object of war, if you have not already worked this out with your 168 IQ, is to kill the enemy, and not be killed. The Apache video is an excellent example of how to do just that. Wether you are for/against/indefferent to war, there's no denying that that pilot, with that vehicle, with those weapons, that technology, and that information network that backs him up, is not an amazing feat.
Well, actually, you would. Coz your so much smarter than everyone else.


Is this directed at me?

If so then the time has come for me to put some of this thread into perspective. I initially posted this vid because it is interesting. The whole turnip farmer thing was just, i thought, a snappy and amusing way of presnting it to the board. Then some people made some comments and I thought it would be interesting to rebutt some of them to provoke further discussion since this is a good way of lerning more about and issue.

War has no 'object', it is senseless. The goal of an individual participant is survival and this often means killing the enemy in an 'underhanded' (tactically superior) manner. I am well aware of these things since I have a high level of interest in warfare, especially aerial combat where the form is usually to spot the enemy first, stab him in the back and piss off quick smart before his mates kill you.

BTW, my IQ is only 147



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger
I was under the impression that the Apache 30mm system could be outfitted to use DP rounds. Am I misinformed?


The Depleted Uranium rounds are way too heavy for the Apache, they just can't pack enough powder behind the round to fire one, The A-10's have DU but the 30mm round is also about 18 inches long , which is a huge bullet, where as the Apaches is only about 9 inches long and about 4 inches of that is bullet, they don't even come in tracer rounds for that matter only a training round which is a lead slug and High Explosive round. An ammo box for these contains 110 rounds coicidentally it weighs 110lbs including the loading trays, so each round weighs approx. 1 lbs, the depleted uranium is considerable heavier, I am not sure of its weight though, but any way even HE rounds move very slowly you can actually see them going down range in FLIR. If you watch that video you can see the "puffs" of smoke that is the HE rounds exploding, they are basically a granade going off, not really like a bullet hitting the ground. I am 100% sure they do not have DU for the AH-64's 30 mm cannon. It is a devasting weapon in itself though, if you can keep it from jamming.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 08:42 AM
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I keep reading about the "poor guy on a tractor" and talk about these being farmers.
That "tractor" you are referring to is an artillery peice. The video is in IR and the barrel of the artillery which is quite visible is still very hot, which is why it glows white in the IR video.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by redpig01

Originally posted by Kidfinger
I was under the impression that the Apache 30mm system could be outfitted to use DP rounds. Am I misinformed?


The Depleted Uranium rounds are way too heavy for the Apache, they just can't pack enough powder behind the round to fire one, The A-10's have DU but the 30mm round is also about 18 inches long , which is a huge bullet, where as the Apaches is only about 9 inches long and about 4 inches of that is bullet, they don't even come in tracer rounds for that matter only a training round which is a lead slug and High Explosive round. An ammo box for these contains 110 rounds coicidentally it weighs 110lbs including the loading trays, so each round weighs approx. 1 lbs, the depleted uranium is considerable heavier, I am not sure of its weight though, but any way even HE rounds move very slowly you can actually see them going down range in FLIR. If you watch that video you can see the "puffs" of smoke that is the HE rounds exploding, they are basically a granade going off, not really like a bullet hitting the ground. I am 100% sure they do not have DU for the AH-64's 30 mm cannon. It is a devasting weapon in itself though, if you can keep it from jamming.



You are incorrect. The Apache can use DU rounds:

"The 30mm x 173 GAU-8/A ammunition was among the most effective ammunition used in Operation Desert Storm with proven performance against all targets, including tanks, armored and light vehicles. The 30mm lightweight family of ammunition was developed to optimize the air-to-ground mission of the U.S. Army AH-64 Apache helicopter. This ammunition family is also compatible with all 30mm x 113 gun systems.

The PGU-14/B API Armor Piercing Incendiary round has a lightweight body which contains a sub-calibre high density penetrator of Depleted Uranium (DU). In addition to its penetrating capability DU is a natural pyrophoric material which enhances the incendiary effects. Depleted uranium results from the enriching of natural uranium for use in nuclear reactors. Natural uranium is a slightly radioactive metal that is present in most rocks and soils as well as in many rivers and sea water. Natural uranium consists primarily of a mixture of two isotopes (forms) of uranium, Uranium-235 (U235) and Uranium-238 (U238), in the proportion of about 0.7 and 99.3 percent, respectively. Nuclear reactors require U235 to produce energy, therefore, the natural uranium has to be enriched to obtain the isotope U235 by removing a large part of the U238. Uranium-238 becomes DU, which is 0.7 times as radioactive as natural uranium. . Since DU has a half-life of 4.5 billion years, there is very little decay of those DU materials. When manufactured as 30mm rounds, each DU projectile contains approximately 4,650 grains [0.66 pounds (lbs)] of extruded DU, alloyed with 0.75 weight percent titanium. The projectile is encased in a 0.8 mm-thick aluminum shell as the final DU round. "


www.fas.org...



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 08:48 AM
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Originally posted by smokinjoe

Notice the bullets seemed to impact slightly left of the cross hair? haha Dumb-arse gunner couldn't even hit that guy on the first try, lucky he was in an armoured apache; out on the field one of those farmers could have stuck a pitch fork up his dumb arse hahahahahahaha !!!!!


Have you ever had to boresight one of these aircraft?Iits not the easiest process, these aren't like picking up a weapon with fixed sights, the mos 68x (Apache Armament&Electricians) Have to perform a procedure called boresight where all the electronics (FLIR, day side camera's, IHADSS, FCC, LRFD's) have to be aligned with the physical bore of the Cannon, It is a long and pretty hard procedure. You also have wind that affects the rounds. Beside why do you need to be 100% accurate when you have a bullet with a 5-10 meter explosion?



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by intelgurl
I keep reading about the "poor guy on a tractor" and talk about these being farmers.
That "tractor" you are referring to is an artillery peice. The video is in IR and the barrel of the artillery which is quite visible is still very hot, which is why it glows white in the IR video.



I disagree, there is a tract of land which is freshly disturbed in a line behind the vehicle and there is clearly something attatched to the vehicle, farm equipment such as a harrow or seeder.

The glow you are seeing could easily be the exhaust pipe. I doubt that a heavy duty steel artillery piece would glow like that unless it had been firing for sometime and I cant imagine these guys being able to get away with that.

I will concede that it MAY be a mortar tube. It would make sense to hide one of these on an innocent looking vehicle, fire off a few quick rounds, and back to the turnips as if nothing happened.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 08:58 AM
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Here is a pic of the Apache DU round:





posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by redpig01

Originally posted by smokinjoe

Notice the bullets seemed to impact slightly left of the cross hair? haha Dumb-arse gunner couldn't even hit that guy on the first try, lucky he was in an armoured apache; out on the field one of those farmers could have stuck a pitch fork up his dumb arse hahahahahahaha !!!!!


Have you ever had to boresight one of these aircraft?Iits not the easiest process, these aren't like picking up a weapon with fixed sights, the mos 68x (Apache Armament&Electricians) Have to perform a procedure called boresight where all the electronics (FLIR, day side camera's, IHADSS, FCC, LRFD's) have to be aligned with the physical bore of the Cannon, It is a long and pretty hard procedure. You also have wind that affects the rounds. Beside why do you need to be 100% accurate when you have a bullet with a 5-10 meter explosion?


Not to mention Bullet drop and bulet wobble. It was good shooting actually.
Very efficient.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 09:02 AM
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all soldiers, grunts, tankers, pilots ect ect are trained to do one basic thing. overcome human instinct and kill who you are ordered to kill. in a combat situation you shoot to kill, if the first ones dont do it, you shoot again....
the pilots did what they were trained to do.........

war is a sick, sadistic and savage thing, made up of thousands of such episodes such as the one in the video. its very easy to pass judgement on someone with the benefit of hindsight, saftey and anonymity. do not get me wrong, war is a three letter word for organised murder IMHO. but to say this or that about individual incidents, and to second guess the logic of the poor bastards on both sides in a situation completely devoid of any logic is a bad joke. everyone who goes to war is a victim.

the real criminals are the ones who start these things. presidents, prime ministers, dictators ect ect. manson got pinned for being the orchestrator, so should heads of state.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by skippytjc

Originally posted by redpig01

Originally posted by Kidfinger
I was under the impression that the Apache 30mm system could be outfitted to use DP rounds. Am I misinformed?


The Depleted Uranium rounds are way too heavy for the Apache, they just can't pack enough powder behind the round to fire one, The A-10's have DU but the 30mm round is also about 18 inches long , which is a huge bullet, where as the Apaches is only about 9 inches long and about 4 inches of that is bullet, they don't even come in tracer rounds for that matter only a training round which is a lead slug and High Explosive round. An ammo box for these contains 110 rounds coicidentally it weighs 110lbs including the loading trays, so each round weighs approx. 1 lbs, the depleted uranium is considerable heavier, I am not sure of its weight though, but any way even HE rounds move very slowly you can actually see them going down range in FLIR. If you watch that video you can see the "puffs" of smoke that is the HE rounds exploding, they are basically a granade going off, not really like a bullet hitting the ground. I am 100% sure they do not have DU for the AH-64's 30 mm cannon. It is a devasting weapon in itself though, if you can keep it from jamming.



You are incorrect. The Apache can use DU rounds:

"The 30mm x 173 GAU-8/A ammunition was among the most effective ammunition used in Operation Desert Storm with proven performance against all targets, including tanks, armored and light vehicles. The 30mm lightweight family of ammunition was developed to optimize the air-to-ground mission of the U.S. Army AH-64 Apache helicopter. This ammunition family is also compatible with all 30mm x 113 gun systems.

The PGU-14/B API Armor Piercing Incendiary round has a lightweight body which contains a sub-calibre high density penetrator of Depleted Uranium (DU). In addition to its penetrating capability DU is a natural pyrophoric material which enhances the incendiary effects. Depleted uranium results from the enriching of natural uranium for use in nuclear reactors. Natural uranium is a slightly radioactive metal that is present in most rocks and soils as well as in many rivers and sea water. Natural uranium consists primarily of a mixture of two isotopes (forms) of uranium, Uranium-235 (U235) and Uranium-238 (U238), in the proportion of about 0.7 and 99.3 percent, respectively. Nuclear reactors require U235 to produce energy, therefore, the natural uranium has to be enriched to obtain the isotope U235 by removing a large part of the U238. Uranium-238 becomes DU, which is 0.7 times as radioactive as natural uranium. . Since DU has a half-life of 4.5 billion years, there is very little decay of those DU materials. When manufactured as 30mm rounds, each DU projectile contains approximately 4,650 grains [0.66 pounds (lbs)] of extruded DU, alloyed with 0.75 weight percent titanium. The projectile is encased in a 0.8 mm-thick aluminum shell as the final DU round. "


www.fas.org...


I had never seen nor heard of these round the entire time i worked on the weapons systems of the AH-64 (a little over 7 years).According to the army.mil site it only uses
bullet M789 (HEDP) High Explosive Dual Purpose
bullet M799 (HEI) High Explosive Incendiary
bullet M788 (TP) Target Practice

tri.army.mil...

from the site you linked the DU rounds are approx 60mm longer than the standard rounds. That would make a really tight fit in the carriers and the chamber.
I could be wrong though. Like I said i had never seen or heard of these particular rounds. I was in Attack battalions that served in combat, we had never seen these rounds.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 09:36 AM
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Sorry heres another link to the load out of munitions on the aircraft.
www.jolly-rogers.com...




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