Proposal: John Titor-Hater's Club

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posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 04:01 PM
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Alright! This club is getting going heavy now. Welcome Herman.

I find it interesting that this thread was moved to Below Top Secret >> RANT when the Titor story is CLEARLY a conspiracy subject. Maybe ATS profits too much from the Titor that they don't want it to disappear? Too many new visitors?

This Titor thing could have a negative affect on America if enough people are fooled by it. The Titor piece is clearly anti-American. Interesting that ATS wants to squash this thread.




posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by smallpeeps
Alright! This club is getting going heavy now. Welcome Herman.

I find it interesting that this thread was moved to Below Top Secret >> RANT when the Titor story is CLEARLY a conspiracy subject. Maybe ATS profits too much from the Titor that they don't want it to disappear? Too many new visitors?

This Titor thing could have a negative affect on America if enough people are fooled by it. The Titor piece is clearly anti-American. Interesting that ATS wants to squash this thread.


Mmhmmm, I see what you're getting at. I do see how it could be taken as a RANT subject, if left open to some interpretation. It does seem more conspiratorial though. But for God's sake...if this guy had been the real thing, wouldn't he have told us something that a million people haven't already been talking about? Go back to 2000 and ask any liberal if we're going to find WMD's, guess what they'd say? Go back to 2001 and ask an anti-Bush person if in the case Bush wins again, do you think it will be because of election fraud? Again, guess what their answer will be? And......he travels back in time to "warn" us, but then decides we're not worth it!? What the Hell is that!?!?



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:50 PM
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Go back to 2000 and ask any liberal if we're going to find WMD's, guess what they'd say?


Hah, I think if you went back to 2000 and said to some random liberal 'Will we find WMD's in Iraq? Or is bush just there for the oil?"

They'd say "What the hell are you talking about? Oil? Iraq? You're a lunatic buddy, Bush is an idiot, and I wouldn't be surprised if he pulls something like that.. what's a WMD? I haven't heard that term used in popular media.. Weapon of Mass Destruction? I guess it would be.. But why are we looking for Weapons of Mass Destruction? I really, really think you need to sit down."

-- See, in 2000, there was no one getting all "OMG BUSH IS THAR 4 OIL" - Because he _wasn't_ anywhere. He just got elected in November, and he was 'out' pretty much straight until September 11th happened. After that it took until 2003 for "Attack Iraq" to be part of the official deal. WMD's didn't enter mass media until then either.

Funny, how it would actually have been quite strange in 2000 to say what he did - aside from the civil war if Bush was re-elected in a second steal. Considering it's pretty widely accepted that the first time _was_ a steal, that they fudged it a bit to get him in, if he had done it again, then there probably WOULD have been a civil war. But instead, Kerry gave up.

When you look at it, the guy said that we're just there for Saddam's oil and there really are no WMD's, and that massive civil liberties would be repealed.

Well, that happened. Considering he said it long before September 11th, when people started thinking this, it's a pretty good guess at worst.

If he was smart enough to guess that, then perhaps he's smart enough to guess about some upcoming civil problems in the United States, and a developing major world conflict. From the present outlook, civil problems in the US wouldn't be that difficult. The major political/religious cracks in the country are obvious - and they basically run along the same lines. With the EU growing in power and consolidation, India's massive growth, China's openness, Russia's returns towards a stranglehold democracy, and America's "World-Police" ethic, alongside massively unstable goings-on in the Middle-East and Eastern/Southern Asia, a world conflict isn't difficult either.

Regardless of his being a liar or a traveller through time, he seems to have guessed what we'd be thinking and what the world would look like from here.

Do you have to hate that? Do you have to hate that some people don't?

(Post Script: Also, I find it funny how you simply ignored my first post. Whenever I point out reasonable problems in someone's plot, they just act like it didn't happen, and go on about all the positive things they've seen.

That's right buddy. You're successful. Your idea was deemed unfit for real discussion in ATS, and you've conjured up a band of people stupid enough to follow you or tolerant enough to take your side and not just laugh at you. You won't even recognise your problems, let alone fix them. Congratulations, you still fail.)



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 11:42 PM
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First off, your original post wasn't even directed at all towards me. It was made BEFORE my first post in this thread. You claim that we "ignored" your post when we (Or he, because I wasn't involved at this point) couldn't find anyway to counter it. Well considering that you only answered to ONE of my arguments, you're guilty as well. And wait a minute, I believe that smallpeeps answered to....more than one of yours! hmmmmmmm...

And you may be right about the WMD's thing; I can't seem to find an exact date as to WHEN he made the prediction about the WMD's. If it was after 9/11/2001, then my case rests.

Now I'll use the short ammount of time I have left to address the only argument of yours that was directed at me, the person who you were telling-off.


If he was smart enough to guess that, then perhaps he's smart enough to guess about some upcoming civil problems in the United States, and a developing major world conflict. From the present outlook, civil problems in the US wouldn't be that difficult. The major political/religious cracks in the country are obvious - and they basically run along the same lines. With the EU growing in power and consolidation, India's massive growth, China's openness, Russia's returns towards a stranglehold democracy, and America's "World-Police" ethic, alongside massively unstable goings-on in the Middle-East and Eastern/Southern Asia, a world conflict isn't difficult either.


I don't know if you're being sarcastic or serious, but your seem to further proove my point. See, one of the main problems I have with John Titor is that he only made his prediction 4 years ago! 4 years ago it would have been easy for any political scientist to predict the same things that this man predicted. Then he tries to cover himself by saying that him going back in time changed it somehow. But see, him coming back to OUR TIME and ruining the events that would have happened has to mean that a future-future version of him would have come back to HIS time when HE was living in 2000, thus making the events happen the same way. It's hard to explain, but hopefully you can understand what I'm getting at.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 01:51 PM
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I think this belongs in BTS. Its not about discussion of the actual conspiracy as conspiracy. A case could be made that it belongs to chit chat really. Also, the group isn't technically supposed to be used to promote clubs so there's that too.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 10:13 PM
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Wow, is my face red. I wasn't logged in, and thus didn't see anyone's avatars - I never even saw smallpeeps' reply post. Whoosh.

And, actually Herman, I've no problem with you. My beef (and my ranting) is mainly aimed at smallpeeps, aside from that one bit about his prediction dates.

And for the record, John Titor was active on the internet from October 2000 to March 2001. He left long before September 11th, and his predictions and speech for the day were not COMPLETELY bizarre, as they fit well with ranting crazed conspiracy-jargon, but they fit even better with common language today/generally after 9/11.

I am serious. I'm not saying that there's anything concrete in what he said, but I am saying that there's just a little proving him wrong. For anyone to just jump up and scream "EVERYONE WHO DARES TO BELIEVE JOHN TITOR IS STUPID" seems the ultimate in idiotism to me. And, the fact that you don't really know when John Titor said this stuff seems to paint a picture where you aren't really an expert on the subject. Before you think "They're all wrong" or "They're all right" or anything, you should look into this sort of topic and do as much research as you can.

Back to smallpeeps - first, I'd like you to give the quote where John Titor says "My primary purpose for coming here was to watch Y2K unfold" - considering he showed up 9-10 months after it was supposed to happen, and I only remember him saying he was interested in a large event in this era, and then that he was disappointed with it not happening the way he wanted.

He did specifically mention Y2K, and did say in other parts "What is a large catastrophic event that everyone thought would happen but didn't" - which is believed to be a reference to Y2K. We just don't know.

And, do you think that as a 2-3 year old, meeting a man who was very warm and friendly to you who knew your parents well and seemed to understand you would be that troubling? If he said "I'm you" would it scar you for life? I really, really doubt that it would. He likely wouldn't have wanted to show up one day and then take the child's mother though. That would be evil - at least far more so than meeting his 2 year old self.

And, the "Propagandist Techniques" would not be the "Dissing a cowardly Time Traveller" - they would be the imagery you provide of "Mental Pollution" and of "Services To Humanity", "Cleansing of The Internet" - this is pretty heavy # you're throwing.

And wait, you think the internet is at present a credible source of information?

Beyond that, a conspiracy website is?

Wow, fighting an uphill battle there. It might be more honest, but buddy, it wouldn't be an eighth as fun.

Edit: Who in god's name is warning Nygdan?

[edit on 24-2-2005 by Viendin]



posted on Feb, 25 2005 @ 01:42 PM
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John Titor said the following on Nov 21, 2000 (italics mine):



"Consider this: You are a time traveller who wishes to go back in time to 1941 because your grandparents live close to Pearl Harbor in Hawaii. You realize you can't stop the war but you may be able to help them prepare for it. Strangely, December 7th comes and goes with no sneak attack. As the war in Europe rages on, Japan fails to join the Axis power, there is no war in the Pacific, and the US remains neutral. Then, you watch as Germany begins to develop the atomic bomb... all by themselves

For a change, I have a question for all of you. I want you to think very hard. What major disaster was expected and prepared for in the last year and a half that never happened?"

John Titor here shows his stupidity regarding history. Japan joined the Axis on Sep. 27th 1940 [en.wikipedia.org...]. Pearl Harbor was over one year later. He sure knows his psuedo-time travel but this is one soldier who should learn about one of the most pivotal points in history. Wouldn't you learn about nuclear history and those nations involved if you were the child of a nuke-war? Moreover, his fear-mongering comment "Germany begins to develop the atomic bomb" is blatant and untrue. Germany had been trying for years but were far from even getting an atomic pile to work. Their main goal was nuclear power. They hand't built their own Los Alamos and Heisenberg didn't even really think it was doable. To say that they would have won WWII if the US had not gotten involved is an assumption.

Then, in his very next paragraph (of the same post) he insultingly implies that Y2K is in some way similar to his disappearing Pearl Harbor analogy. That in our timeline, it didn't happen.

Clearly (1) Titor is bluffing when he claims to know history, and (2) his not knowing history is IMPOSSIBLE for any time traveller as they would have to be HISTORY EXPERTS before stepping into the past. If you dropped in on a world where Pearl Harbor didn't happen, would you insult those people and say things like: "The world would be better if half of you were dead" and "No one likes you in the future"?

I'd say that we stopped Y2K (I worked on the problem for several companies) due to hard work and awareness. I'd say we will similarly be able to avoid Titor's nuclear war also. Regarding that nuclear war, let me just mention Titor's story again:



"There's a civil war that starts in America in 2005. That conflict flares up and down for 10 years. In 2015, Russia launches a nuclear strike against the major cities in the United States, (which is the "other side" of the civil war from my perspective), China and Europe. The United States counter attacks. The US cities are destroyed along with the AFE (American Federal Empire)...thus we (in the country) won. The European Union and China were also destroyed. Russia is now our largest trading partner [...]"

So here we have the story of our unavoidable future. Russia launches a first strike against the USA, Europe (bye-bye Paris, London, Holland etc) and China (why would the soviets attack China if they are attacking the USA? Why would they destroy and piss-off billions of communists?). I'm sorry, but Titor's future sounds too grim and his knowledge of history is weak. Why would anybody want to listen to him at all? Our best possible future is to hope for Russia to nuke the globe? Uhh.... No thanks. Great story pal, but try to present it as the fiction it is.

As for the web being a home for truth, I will just say this: I was posting on message boards when you had to dial someone's home-phone to do it and there was no internet. 300 baud modems was all there was. Heck, I was excited when I installed two dedicated lines and could have two users 'chatting' on my server. The web isn't much different from those days of BBSing. If you post lies as truths, you are poisoning the well for the whole village.

If you could point me to a larger attempt at a non-UFO futuristic Internet deception bigger than Titor, I'd be interested to see it. This is a first in Internet history. EXAMPLE: If Tom Clancy or some other fine writer decided to post a similarly interesting story to the web as truth, they would be sowing the seeds for total destruction, particularly if that 'truth' has the US being divided and crushed by Russia.

Disinformation is like a virus that kills truth. For more on disinformation in general, check out Operation Bodyguard during WWII and particularly Fortitude South. Posting falshood as truth will destory any contributive-forum like the Internet.

NOTE: I move to extend the Titor-Haters deadline to April 1st. I'll probably want to continue this thread until then.



posted on Feb, 25 2005 @ 05:15 PM
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That's well and good, really. I'm glad you're older than me, and that you've lived through the hardships of 300bd's. I don't really care though.

So you've been on message boards longer, and seen a different internet.. is this supposed to make me "Back down" and agree that I should join the crusade against every person who believes John Titor could have at least been onto _something?_ Well, it hasn't, and it won't.

A note on the dates and what you've said. First, he wouldn't have to be an expert on a timeline he didn't travel to. A trip to 1975, then an unscheduled trip to 2000, he wouldn't need to know too much about WWII. Maybe, as a part of the 'new world', they've adapted the philosophy of not teaching a lot of history, to keep away from the ideology of the 'old world'.

Then, maybe WWII happened a little differently in his timeline.

And maybe offhand in a chat room he messed up his wording, and said something that his mind didn't immediately catch.

I'll take your advice, and I won't join your club, but I think you should take mine, and should just take your restrictions elsewhere.



posted on Feb, 25 2005 @ 05:22 PM
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Viendin, I am curious as to why you want to promote the John Titor story. Do you live in America?

The story could easily be seen as information warfare propaganda against the USA. I am curious as to why you see it as useful. Yes, Titor mentioned a lot of good points. Yes we need to be less wasteful and all that. But are you personally convinced that Civil War is unavoidable in the US?

Aren't there a hundred other actual authors who talk about conservation and politics and all the good stuff Titor mentioned? Why don't these authors stoop to his level by telling some fake story to get their views across?



posted on Feb, 26 2005 @ 02:48 AM
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Im joining, i hate the dude. Even though someone came forward to admit that it was a hoax and all the pictures were explained, plus debunked here, some still believe its all true.

If he is real, i use that word lightly, i would go through time, to the future, just to punch him for the stress he has caused me.....GRRRRRRR



posted on Feb, 27 2005 @ 11:26 AM
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Nice effort to 'turn it around' on me.

Actually, I'm Canadian. And I know that in his future I have a bleak existence.

I don't 'love' the story, and I'm not promoting it. I personally haven't seen a shred of hard evidence either way. The guy who came forward and admitted "It was a hoax" later on admitted that he was lying, and wanted to see if he could trick people into thinking he was John Titor. And Kano's Debunking topic is useless. He talks about a single photograph.

A single photograph.

Isn't it possible that he wanted some 'proof' without actually proving anything? Couldn't he have faked it just as something else to show us while he was here?

A barrage of good counterpoints were made but never listened to or shown to be false.

Now, as I said, I'm not 'promoting the story', but I am willing to contend for it if it's being attacked without real backing. You're all for truth, so am I - but I'm not afraid that people can't make the distinction. As of yet, the John Titor story is in the category of "In all likeliness a fake, but definitely not proven so." And so I contend that it isn't ready to be 'stricken' from the record of the internet.

As I do keep saying, before September 11th he was talking about missing WMD's and people's repealed rights. He was talking about the unification of the EU into something far more wholly realised, about China being a major superpower, about Russia moving backwards in America-friendliness. About a new major instability in the Middle East that America's involvement in would show a horrific foreign policy adopted by America, and sow the seeds of the civil war.

Well, it's all been happening, except the civil war part. The WMD's were missing - and those words didn't even exist in pre-9/11 America. Rights are constantly being repealed - The Patriot Act was Post 9/11. The EU is far more solidified - they're testing a general EU Constitution! China is opening economically and is a major power already. Russia's government has been consolidating itself. They announced a nuclear plan that could outdo the US Missile defense - operational 2015. They just signed a nuclear deal with Iran to get depleted uranium so that Iran doesn't make weapons. Hello? Russia could still make weapons with all this surplus uranium! The Abu Graihb scandal showed the horrible foreign policy of torture that the United States has allowed to happen. A lot of people are very unhappy, and the world isn't a very stable thing right now.

Now, all that is interesting coincidence, and that's all. I'm just saying that regardless of how 'wrong' Titor's been regarding specifically Waco-like events, and regardless of how many little holes you poke in his story, or how many hater's clubs you start, he's made his mark, and he's been remarkably correct about what's happened to us so far. We're only in February - 2005 has yet to pass. We might not even hear about it until later when it becomes public - but it doesn't have to have started yet.

Even if he's wrong, which he could (and likely will) be, then the story will be known as false, and remembered with interest as something to have 'happened on the early internet' that was never disproven over 5 years until the actual prophecies became undoubtedly incorrect. At that point, people could study this. People could look back and say "That Viendin character is a retard." and then their teacher will say "Oh, don't be mean. They didn't even have household holograms back then children- they just weren't all too smart."

And for all of it, I don't care. But there's still a minute possibility that this story is real, and until you present some piece of rock solid proof, I'm not going to let you kill it. Regardless of whether I like it (I don't want to die) I won't see it removed simply because you don't.


apc

posted on Feb, 27 2005 @ 04:26 PM
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This all has an amazing similarity to events that took place about 2000 years ago. You've got some dude that claims to be not of this world, making predictions of what's to come, and everyone wants to kill him.

Why should anyone even care? There's no point trying to argue either side of the issue. You weren't there, so you don't know. Again this can all be compared to Christian doctrine and the Bible. Pure blind faith, either for or against.

Just don't worry about proving or disproving anything.. you can't and you're just wasting energy. Take whatever insight you'd like from what has been said and move on.



posted on Feb, 27 2005 @ 05:04 PM
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This all has an amazing similarity to events that took place about 2000 years ago.

Gotta disagree there. Comparing John Titor to Christ is laughable. Christ performed miracles and after his death, appeared in physical form (if you believe the myth/legend/story).

Titor is nothing. He is a shadow. It's a great story, but presented as myth it is dangerous and dividing to a nation, namely, the United States of America. Everything he said about CJD and nukes and conservation were great points, but he should have just used his reasoning skills and talked about the particulars of these issues. Lots of people have posted on all of these topics and have not felt the need to lie or threaten/belittle others as Titor did. Instead, his whole web-appearance is predicated on his superior knowledge (being a time-traveller).

I happen to believe that a real time traveller would be much more subtle, particularly if he had nothing to do except sit around his mom's house for a few months. A real time traveller (in Titor's described position) would use a bit of cleverness if he was actually trying to study a planet of suicidal-oddballs, which clearly we were to him. He would have asked leading questions. Finally when he was being cornered he would reveal the "John Titor Story" of being a time traveller. He would not broadcast the whole truth from the start, in my opinion. Titor's moral loophole of "I'm not violating my moral code because you will not believe I am really a time-traveller" is obviously a lie because he knew that some would believe.


apc

posted on Feb, 27 2005 @ 07:25 PM
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I compare Titor to Jesus because it is a widely known example that can be related to, but the comparison could be made with any other skilled illusionist or deceiver of the masses. Like you said, according to those that believe it, Jesus performed miracles. To those that believe it, Titor performed the 'miracle' of prophecy, even if to him it was just recollection.
I don't personally believe any of it.. logic dictates false until proven true. If I wasn't actually there to witness it with my own eyes, it's hearsay.



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 08:01 PM
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I compare Titor to Jesus because it is a widely known example that can be related to

Titor is not yet widely known and since [A] He was a jerk, and [B] he wanted us to suffer, what could possibly be the value of perpetuating his myth? His whole story is predicated on a horrible future for humanity. Call me a propagandist if you must, but I think we should unite against such idiocy. I don't want any child of mine believing that Americans will have a civil war. To me, that's an offensive image. I also do not like being told what is or is not possible in my future.

People have not died in the lion's den for Titor nor are they likely to do so. When you mention Titor and Christ on the same level, it's like putting an engine-less Yugo next to a Rolls Royce.


apc

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 12:58 AM
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My meaning was Jesus was widely known, not Titor. Not to get philosophical, but my intent was to compare the general surroundings of one man with another man in attempt to relate.
However Titor is pretty well known among "people." I heard about him thru word of mouth maybe 2 or 3ish years ago.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 01:18 AM
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why do you hate him? What did he do?



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 04:34 PM
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why do you hate him? What did he do?

What he did was tell a great story and then try to pass it off as truth. He sees a Russian nuclear first strike as the only solution for our problems. I'd say that's an indication of what his motives were, as an author. Read this enitre thread for the details of why I think he's a jerk.

Even after 2005 (and lack of civil war in America), people will still believe and will still theorize about when civil war might happen in America. As an American, I find the idea of fostering civil war to be an offensive one. Civil war would hurt America (and the rest of the world) and should not be hoped for or promoted by any responsible person.


apc

posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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Despite Titor I feel civil war / revolution is inevitable.

We are a very young nation. Most every other country in the world had gone through atleast 2 revolutions by our age. We've had only one civil war that was over the traditional reasons for civil war... a large division of a nation has different wants and needs from the rest, and wants its own sovereignty (anyone who actually knows American history understands slavery was about .01% of the reason).

However revolution is built into the capitalistic system. After enough time has passed and the upper class has accumulated too much wealth, the lower and middle classes overthrow the upper class and replace it. A cpl hundred years later this happens again, and again.

In our present day case, the civilian populus is currently being manipulated to a position of weakness and fear where martial law could be declared with little resistance. Our government knows exactly what leads to revolution, and they are trying to influence events to minimize the possibility, but I believe it can only be delayed.



posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 02:13 PM
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Despite Titor I feel civil war / revolution is inevitable.

apc, I do agree with you somewhat.

The problem I have is that JT gave us no way out. I mean, he popped in on our planet and called us a bunch of stupid sheep and said we could only be saved by a nuclear first strike from Russia. I have a problem with that.

Sure, I could see civil war happening in America but only if there's a serious upheaval due to food scarcity or if they try to confiscate guns (terror attack followed by martial law followed by gun grab). Even then, there has got to be a better solution that to have half the planet's population toasted in a nuke war. I am determined to fight that idea until the last moment.





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