The Follies of Activism

originally posted by: bastion
It's the backbone of a modern liberal democracy.

Absolutely agree
Like Ford Transit vans are the backbone of British small businesses lol

The OP seems to be the type who will just bend over and take it, he criticised me for preventing a business (Monsanto) from legitimate trade. It may well have been 'legitimate' but the people didn't want it, cops didn't want it, and as I've said previously, I don't think the government did either because they didn't crack down on us, when they could easily have done so.

Slacktivism is lame though, I agree. Sharing 'protests' on facebook will do nothing, sometimes you have to get down and dirty, and arrested to make a difference. We've already made basic plans in my 'tribe' if after Brexit any of our EU mates face not getting 'right to remain' or whatever.
Nobody sees it as a real possibility but contingency plans are always good. Basic plan of action first will be to swap homes/addresses, hide our mates, then physically repel any immigration snatch squads.
I don't think it will come to that though, the government knows it would turn bloody, and they haven't got enough officers anyway.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

And yet you prefer to bow through the propaganda of the "Divine right of Kings"
carry on

One of these days you’ll muster a proper argument.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

And yet you prefer to bow through the propaganda of the "Divine right of Kings"
carry on

One of these days you’ll muster a proper argument.

I consider that a proper argument LesM. I believe you have lost this debate.

originally posted by: bastion
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Yeah - same goes for pretty much every freedom and right we have in the UK, children striking and closing down factories led to the creation of parliament, fair pay for fair days work, abolishment of slavery, then the suffragettes movement, establishment of human rights, etc.. it's why we're no longer in serfdom or under corporate oligarchy (to a limited extent).

Maybe the OP is getting confused with slacktivism - people who hold signs, post on facebook but don't do research or take part in effective action or Astroturfing - companies setting up fake grass routes?

Personally had a lot of success in anti-war, anti-arms, anti-nazi, anti-fracking, anti-corruption, anti-privatisation of Unis and NHS, highlighting gross human rights violations of disabled people in the UK, , illegal overseas 'things', tidying up major defense flaws via years of private research and meetings with numerous sources and unions, using shareholder act and local government finance act to uncover corruption to hand to the information commissioner and regular meetings with my MP and Councillors to keep up to date with what's going on behind the scenes in UK politics.

It's the backbone of a modern liberal democracy.

That’s not true. Activists don’t sign legislation, create laws, nor create institutions. I think you’re getting activists confused with politicians.

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

And yet you prefer to bow through the propaganda of the "Divine right of Kings"
carry on

One of these days you’ll muster a proper argument.

I consider that a proper argument LesM. I believe you have lost this debate.

You believe a lot things, none of which have been truthful.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

And yet you prefer to bow through the propaganda of the "Divine right of Kings"
carry on

One of these days you’ll muster a proper argument.

I consider that a proper argument LesM. I believe you have lost this debate.

You believe a lot things, none of which have been truthful.

Truth is subjective.

a reply to: InTheLight

Truth is subjective.

Then this statement is subjective.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: InTheLight

Truth is subjective.

Then this statement is subjective.

Your premise on this topic is subjective and after reading through your responses, you have failed to convince me and many others here that activism is folly (serves no practical purpose). You mention freedom, yet do not mention the driving forces of activism, such as lack of equality, lack of justice, lack of those in power to do what the people want instead of what they want (which is in itself a form of activism or tyranny to ignore the people's needs and wants for progress or betterment of their lives or change for the general good, including environmental, economic and social reasons).

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: InTheLight

Truth is subjective.

Then this statement is subjective.

Your premise on this topic is subjective and after reading through your responses, you have failed to convince me and many others here that activism is folly (serves no practical purpose). You mention freedom, yet do not mention the driving forces of activism, such as lack of equality, lack of justice, lack of those in power to do what the people want instead of what they want (which is in itself a form of activism or tyranny to ignore the people's needs and wants for progress or betterment of their lives or change for the general good, including environmental, economic and social reasons).

You refuse to acknowledge my point about the activism of the Nazis, the KKK, the fascists, the anti-abolitionists. You refuse to acknowledge my point that activism is one degree or another of coercion. You refuse to acknowledge my point about the vanities of activism. You refuse to acknowledge my point that activists impede the freedoms of others in order to get what they want. These are the follies of activism I explicitly wrote about.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Might want to look into UK politics, had plenty an Early Day Motion and submitted evidence to the Information Commisioner and Parliamentary Select Committees. How do you think Parliament works, or PMQs, Council, Police and Comunity Together Acts meetings, Parish Councils, Local Authorities etc.. function? Do you think they just make up the laws, institutions and legislation out of thin air? How do you think the Naziis and KKK were defeated?

Parliament was only created due to activism. Look into the Preston Riots, Trade Unions, etc... pretty much every right and freedom has been achieved via activism in the move from feudalism to present day. None were willingly given.

Activism is integral for a government to give the slightest # in what the public think, it's also integral to creating dialogue and reaching some form of solution and political progression. Political apathy achieves nothing except breeding ignorance and allowing them to get away with anything, we'd still be peasants.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: InTheLight

Truth is subjective.

Then this statement is subjective.

Your premise on this topic is subjective and after reading through your responses, you have failed to convince me and many others here that activism is folly (serves no practical purpose). You mention freedom, yet do not mention the driving forces of activism, such as lack of equality, lack of justice, lack of those in power to do what the people want instead of what they want (which is in itself a form of activism or tyranny to ignore the people's needs and wants for progress or betterment of their lives or change for the general good, including environmental, economic and social reasons).

You refuse to acknowledge my point about the activism of the Nazis, the KKK, the fascists, the anti-abolitionists. You refuse to acknowledge my point that activism is one degree or another of coercion. You refuse to acknowledge my point about the vanities of activism. You refuse to acknowledge my point that activists impede the freedoms of others in order to get what they want. These are the follies of activism I explicitly wrote about.

You also refuse to acknowledge valid points made by others that activism has also been proved to not be folly, such as in the case of the Rosa Parks ordeal. All your points, in my opinion, can be applied to how organized government works and how social disobedience does indeed get results. If only to get the word out and make people aware of an issue. It is then up to the individual to do their research to determine where the truth lies, then, again, depends on if the science is valid, or if one can wade through the muck to get at the real truth.

dpp

originally posted by: bastion
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Might want to look into UK politics, had plenty an Early Day Motion and submitted evidence to the Information Commisioner and Parliamentary Select Committees. How do you think Parliament works, or PMQs, Council, Police and Comunity Together Acts meetings, Parish Councils, Local Authorities etc.. function? Do you think they just make up the laws, institutions and legislation out of thin air?

Parliament was only created due to activism. Look into the Preston Riots, Trade Unions, etc... pretty much every right and freedom has been achieved via activism in the move from feudalism to present day. None were willingly given.

Activism is integral for a government to give the slightest # in what the public think, it's also integral to creating dialogue and reaching some form of solution and political progression. Political apathy achieves nothing except breeding ignorance and allowing them to get away with anything, we'd still be peasants.

Activism is peripheral and secondary to the people actually in there making decisions, signing legislation, being elected to office.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: bastion
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Might want to look into UK politics, had plenty an Early Day Motion and submitted evidence to the Information Commisioner and Parliamentary Select Committees. How do you think Parliament works, or PMQs, Council, Police and Comunity Together Acts meetings, Parish Councils, Local Authorities etc.. function? Do you think they just make up the laws, institutions and legislation out of thin air?

Parliament was only created due to activism. Look into the Preston Riots, Trade Unions, etc... pretty much every right and freedom has been achieved via activism in the move from feudalism to present day. None were willingly given.

Activism is integral for a government to give the slightest # in what the public think, it's also integral to creating dialogue and reaching some form of solution and political progression. Political apathy achieves nothing except breeding ignorance and allowing them to get away with anything, we'd still be peasants.

Activism is peripheral and secondary to the people actually in there making decisions, signing legislation, being elected to office.

Saying that activism is peripheral and secondary is indeed admitting that it is instrumental and not folly.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Absolute nonsense, the only reason such decisions, legislation and election takes place is because of political activism. Are you genuinely trying to claim there's not a single point in history where protest, political action or civil disobedience has achieved nothing? Heard of Ghandi?

All questions in PMQs are written by the public and read out by MPs, MPs lose their seats if they vote against their constituents, they're legally bound to respond to correspondence. I've taken part in many a Council meeting and MPs Surgery, inspected Council, Town and County records, had one Councillor (pending) jail for intimidation of witnesses and accepting bribes.

The public have a hell of a lot of political power if only they research the boring bits of public administration.

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: bastion
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Might want to look into UK politics, had plenty an Early Day Motion and submitted evidence to the Information Commisioner and Parliamentary Select Committees. How do you think Parliament works, or PMQs, Council, Police and Comunity Together Acts meetings, Parish Councils, Local Authorities etc.. function? Do you think they just make up the laws, institutions and legislation out of thin air?

Parliament was only created due to activism. Look into the Preston Riots, Trade Unions, etc... pretty much every right and freedom has been achieved via activism in the move from feudalism to present day. None were willingly given.

Activism is integral for a government to give the slightest # in what the public think, it's also integral to creating dialogue and reaching some form of solution and political progression. Political apathy achieves nothing except breeding ignorance and allowing them to get away with anything, we'd still be peasants.

Activism is peripheral and secondary to the people actually in there making decisions, signing legislation, being elected to office.

Saying that activism is peripheral and secondary is indeed admitting that it is instrumental and not folly.

No, it is simply a bi-product. It is also ruinous to societies. Take for instance the activists protesting school desegregation, or the anti-abolitionists protesting emancipation, or the Nazis, or the cultural revolution. These are your activists.

Activism can indeed be effective, but only because it uses coercion and violence as its methods of seeking change, as I’ve already written

originally posted by: bastion
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Absolute nonsense, the only reason such decisions, legislation and election takes place is because of political activism. Are you genuinely trying to claim there's not a single point in history where protest, political action or civil disobedience has achieved nothing? Heard of Ghandi?

All questions in PMQs are written by the public and read out by MPs, MPs lose their seats if they vote against their constituents, they're legally bound to respond to correspondence.

No I’m saying seeking change doesn’t need to involve coercion, the threat of violence, vanity, mob behaviour, classism, trampling the rights of others, and so on. No, coercion can be very effective.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: bastion
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Might want to look into UK politics, had plenty an Early Day Motion and submitted evidence to the Information Commisioner and Parliamentary Select Committees. How do you think Parliament works, or PMQs, Council, Police and Comunity Together Acts meetings, Parish Councils, Local Authorities etc.. function? Do you think they just make up the laws, institutions and legislation out of thin air?

Parliament was only created due to activism. Look into the Preston Riots, Trade Unions, etc... pretty much every right and freedom has been achieved via activism in the move from feudalism to present day. None were willingly given.

Activism is integral for a government to give the slightest # in what the public think, it's also integral to creating dialogue and reaching some form of solution and political progression. Political apathy achieves nothing except breeding ignorance and allowing them to get away with anything, we'd still be peasants.

Activism is peripheral and secondary to the people actually in there making decisions, signing legislation, being elected to office.

Saying that activism is peripheral and secondary is indeed admitting that it is instrumental and not folly.

No, it is simply a bi-product. It is also ruinous to societies. Take for instance the activists protesting school desegregation, or the anti-abolitionists protesting emancipation, or the Nazis, or the cultural revolution. These are your activists.

Activism can indeed be effective, but only because it uses coercion and violence as its methods of seeking change, as I’ve already written

There can be no by-product or forward movement for the people within government without anyone putting forth alternate or progressive views/information as the wheels will keep turning as dictated previously, look at Putin's government. "You've been warned".

www.hrw.org...

Freedom of assembly is enshrined in Russian law and international human rights law. Russians should be able to protest peacefully and not fear harassment from the police at their homes.

How was Rosa Parks violent or implemented coercion? Actually, it was the anti-protestors to equality that were violent to the peaceful protestors in this instance.

teacher.scholastic.com...

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

False argument.

Stopped my previous employer, a University, from going Private by uncovering the stealth Privatisation, asking legal opinion, submitting it to editor of The Times, exposing £750m money laundering in Cyprus, Sri Lanka and Thailand, illegal weapons development for a nation gyuilty of war crimes for using said weapon and money laundering by the Cypriot Telecoms firm CYTA. Was all done without detection despite attracting attention of Intel.

We're currently taking Caudrilla and the Government to Court over Fracking in Lancashire - we won two County Council bans on any Frackiing in Lancashire after exposing Caudrilla paying off councilors using a shell company, we exposed how profit margins were totally inflated and incorrect by using Shareholder Act - despite Cameron having to make the unprecedented move to remove the right of Local Authorities to ban fracking - we're still continuing on a long legal process that causes no public obstruction.

Not sure how writing letters, Satchya Graha or striking where you still provide the service but don't charge customers a penny comes under violent coercion.

originally posted by: bastion
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

False argument.

Stopped my previous employer, a University, from going Private by uncovering the stealth Privatisation, asking legal opinion, submitting it to editor of The Times, exposing £750m money laundering in Cyprus, Sri Lanka and Thailand, illegal weapons development for a nation gyuilty of war crimes for using said weapon and money laundering by the Cypriot Telecoms firm CYTA. Was all done without detection despite attracting attention of Intel.

We're currently taking Caudrilla and the Government to Court over Fracking in Lancashire - we won two County Council bans on any Frackiing in Lancashire after exposing Caudrilla paying off councilors using a shell company, we exposed how profit margins were totally inflated and incorrect by using Shareholder Act - despite Cameron having to make the unprecedented move to remove the right of Local Authorities to ban fracking - we're still continuing on a long legal process that causes no public obstruction.

Not sure how writing letters, Satchya Graha or striking where you still provide the service but don't charge customers a penny comes under violent coercion.

Respect to you
You are the 'managerial' type of activist who coordinates the legal side, while I'm more the foot soldier type which the OP despises lol.
Together we form the people's army of activists though. LesMis would still be living as a peasant without all the people in history who have risen up to effect change. My MP hates me, I'm on him at every Commons vote, letter, Twitter, and facebook, but sometimes good old civil disobedience and risking arrest is needed to make the difference.

I laugh when US members call us subjects and think we are oppressed. It's the exact opposite, and in my view Britain is the land of the free because we can protest without fear of being shot. Maybe a good tasering at worst but that is rare as far as I've experienced.

I don't know where the OP is from though, I did ask but he won't say, only that he's not from the US.