WATCH: Two Transgenders Blow Out Girls In State Meet

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Why would you think that decades long studies conducted by the IOC didn't take that into consideration?

Because their texts don't mention it. They only mention musculature. It seems that if they aren't mentioning it, they aren't accounting for it.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

For my part, don't spend time delving into it for the sake of this argument. I am certain that bone density/composition/etc. is indeed a factor in the equation (and I included it in my initial post).

I just don't think it's been ignored by the IOC, NCAA, etc.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: PhatalError
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Im guessing youre also Christian. Thats always the go to answer for “i dont have proof”

No. Im anything but.

Have you heard of Ad Hominem? Its the one way ticket to nullifying your own argument.

I thought it was more of a simile, rather than ad hominen. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I guess i shouldve said “You remind me of a certain group of people, who happen to be religious, who always post things as fact that when asked for sources all of a sudden have none” but then again even that is quite blanketed. I like to be direct, to the point, no nonsense.

a reply to: PhatalError

Yeah, well...im at work. I posted a source, that has its own sources within. Feel free to poke through it and provide any counterpoints you'd like to make.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

For my part, don't spend time delving into it for the sake of this argument. I am certain that bone density/composition/etc. is indeed a factor in the equation (and I included it in my initial post).

I just don't think it's been ignored by the IOC, NCAA, etc.

It may not have been, but i'd need to see evidence of such.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: PhatalError

Yeah, well...im at work. I posted a source, that has its own sources within. Feel free to poke through it and provide any counterpoints you'd like to make.

Well, i mean, thats the thing. I went to your source... it was a feminist website. Posting opinions on how women are equal to or greater than males... but not one link to or reference of anything scholastic or even at he very least peer reviewed. Just like “ hey im a woman, posting on a feminist site, so im right. My word is the gospel!” Kind of stuff. Thats why i asked sources. How do you know what they say is correct? I could say air doesnt really exist, we only breathe to keep our heart moving, one breath = 75 heart pumps. Am i correct? I have no
Sources. I wrote it on a forum though, so it must be true. See my point?

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I linked an article mentioning Joanna Harper and her study earlier (Harper advised the IOC regarding the matter).

She is an author on this study: Beyond Fairness: The Biology of Inclusion for Transgender and Intersex Athletes

Here's an article by Harper in the Washington Post: Do transgender athletes have an edge? I sure don’t.

I started hormone therapy in the summer of 2004, and I’ve raced as a woman since the spring of 2005. Although the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), the world track and field association, allows it, and some of my fellow runners have been accepting, other runners are notably chilly toward me. Or they tell me that it’s fine for me to race — as long as I don’t beat them.

But for some people, no variable matters as much as gender assigned at birth. They can’t get past the idea that I’m a man trying to profit in a woman’s sport. The pushback I’ve experienced has been mild compared with that faced by Renée Richards, probably the best-known transgender athlete, who had to sue the U.S. Tennis Association in the 1970s to play as a woman at the U.S. Open.

Or, to take a more recent example, consider the vitriol launched at mixed martial arts fighter Fallon Fox since she came out as transgender in 2013. She was called a “lying, sick, sociopathic, disgusting freak” by fellow MMA fighter Matt Mitrione. One of Fox’s opponents played Aerosmith’s “Dude Looks Like a Lady” as her entrance music. Another complained that Fox should be barred from competition because of her “advantage.” (That fighter, Ashlee Evans-Smith, was suspended in February after testing positive for an illegal diuretic.)

Science provides a clear explanation for why, in many sports, trans women don’t maintain any athletic advantage. Hormone therapy for trans women typically involves a testosterone-blocking drug plus an estrogen supplement. As their testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women see a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and the proportion of oxygen-carrying red cells in their blood. The estrogen, meanwhile, boosts fat storage, especially around the hips. Together, these changes lead to a loss of speed, strength and endurance — all key components of athleticism.

The link to her study specifically about race time is Journal of Sporting Culture.

This study analyzed race times for eight MTF runners who have competed in distance races in both genders, using a mathematical model called age grading. Collectively, the age graded scores for these eight runners were essentially the same in both genders.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Folks that are opposed to any trans participation in competitive sports ... is it only male to female (MTF) folks that you have excpetion to?

Is it okay for FTM folk to compete with other men? Or since FTM folk are "orginally female" should they be forced to compete with girls?

You know, like Mack Beggs who WANTED to compete against boys but was forced to compete against girls in Texas?

Transgenders should be restricted to competition against other transgenders, period. Not sure who supports this "compete against birth gender" idea, but it's just as ridiculous as the current system. They shouldn't be competing against real females or real males because the underlying issues of artificial hormonal supplementation and genetic obfuscation still exists.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: burdman30ott6

What you call "placating the few" many people call equal rights.

I fully accept that you don't agree with what the IOC and NCAA (and others) have decided.

See, I thought equal rights called for a level playing field... now here we are, back at a playing field that was once leveled and has become very lopsided in the name of "equal rights." It doesn't and can't work that way. Unequal considerations will never yield equality outside of a very, very pinholed view at what "equality" is.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

For my part, don't spend time delving into it for the sake of this argument. I am certain that bone density/composition/etc. is indeed a factor in the equation (and I included it in my initial post).

I just don't think it's been ignored by the IOC, NCAA, etc.

Yep. Men have larger/stronger/different muscular and skeletal structures than do women.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: burdman30ott6

What you call "placating the few" many people call equal rights.

I fully accept that you don't agree with what the IOC and NCAA (and others) have decided.

See, I thought equal rights called for a level playing field... now here we are, back at a playing field that was once leveled and has become very lopsided in the name of "equal rights." It doesn't and can't work that way. Unequal considerations will never yield equality outside of a very, very pinholed view at what "equality" is.

Goodness, so many fallacies packed into such a succinct space ... well done! LOL.

Let's see if we can parse it out a bit. Fundamental in the idea of "equal rights" is that ALL (not MOST) people have the same rights before the law (or athletic regulations, etc). The idea that the playing field in athetics has ever been "levelled for all" is a stretch, but no, there's no indication that allowing transfolk to compete in sport is "lopsided."

In fact, as I've presented (without really trying very hard) there's voluminous scientfic evidence to the contrary and the matter has been considered by national and international organizations that administer sport.

It does and is working that way. Around the world.

Are there matters to be considered still? Absolutely, duration of hormonal treatment in MTF folks is still a critial issue.

However, barring some sort of theocratic authoritarian takeover ... the equal rights of trans folk are pretty much a given.

Just get rid of segregated competition already.

The existing sports funding model is failing. More segregation will cost more money. Something will have to give, eventually.

I, for one, would much rather see non-segregated sports than no sports at all, which is where we will be if this keeps up.

Something we all haven't thought about is this...
Did anyone bother to ask those athletes what they think of this or do they even mind?

a reply to: angeldoll

Which makes it challenging for MTF gymnasts, I understand ...

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Folks that are opposed to any trans participation in competitive sports ... is it only male to female (MTF) folks that you have excpetion to?

Is it okay for FTM folk to compete with other men? Or since FTM folk are "orginally female" should they be forced to compete with girls?

You know, like Mack Beggs who WANTED to compete against boys but was forced to compete against girls in Texas?

Transgenders should be restricted to competition against other transgenders, period. Not sure who supports this "compete against birth gender" idea, but it's just as ridiculous as the current system. They shouldn't be competing against real females or real males because the underlying issues of artificial hormonal supplementation and genetic obfuscation still exists.

I understand this is your opinion and can respect it as such. I'd point out the issue with "real females" or "real males" as part of the problem ... it's unnecessary and callous.

Your position is based on your beliefs about differing gender identities rather than on a scientific basis of actual physical differences.

I disagree with you.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
but no, there's no indication that allowing transfolk to compete in sport is "lopsided."

WHAT!?!? The goddamned OP to this thread is 100% indication that allowing it makes the field lopsided. 2 dragracers outran a group of talented female runners!!! Holy hell man, you have to be blind not to call that a lopsided playing field.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Gryphon66
but no, there's no indication that allowing transfolk to compete in sport is "lopsided."

WHAT!?!? The goddamned OP to this thread is 100% indication that allowing it makes the field lopsided. 2 dragracers outran a group of talented female runners!!! Holy hell man, you have to be blind not to call that a lopsided playing field.

The OP offers two individuals in one race as evidence. Surely you're not asking us to believe in these absurd, overgeneralized statements about "lopsidedness" on that basis, are you?

I can prove anything if we take one video as prima facie evidence ...

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Folks that are opposed to any trans participation in competitive sports ... is it only male to female (MTF) folks that you have excpetion to?

Is it okay for FTM folk to compete with other men? Or since FTM folk are "orginally female" should they be forced to compete with girls?

You know, like Mack Beggs who WANTED to compete against boys but was forced to compete against girls in Texas?

Transgenders should be restricted to competition against other transgenders, period. Not sure who supports this "compete against birth gender" idea, but it's just as ridiculous as the current system. They shouldn't be competing against real females or real males because the underlying issues of artificial hormonal supplementation and genetic obfuscation still exists.

I understand this is your opinion and can respect it as such. I'd point out the issue with "real females" or "real males" as part of the problem ... it's unnecessary and callous.

Your position is based on your beliefs about differing gender identities rather than on a scientific basis of actual physical differences.

I disagree with you.

You're cherry picking science, dude. There is not a scientific consensus on what quantitative indicators are present which can demonstrate gender confusion is a scientific/biological mulligan rather than an emotional/mental issue. In fact, far from it... science has tested and proven the XY/XX chromosome pairing model across multiple mammalian species. It is biologically proven fact, not driven by emotion or pandering tomfoolery.

Further, it is scientific fact across all mammalian species that there are clear structural and physical differences between the sexes, while there are individual outliers to that, life is a law of averages rather than a system which can 100% cater to each individual.

As to the other, I use "real" because I'm honest. Bruce Jenner is a dude in a dress with hormone treatments. If/when he has surgery, he will be a dude who had hormone treatments and his make parts mutilated. No different from somebody chopping off their toes and claiming now they have webbed feet and must be amphibious. If you give Bruce Jenner a genetic test today, it will show "Bruce Jenner is scientifically male." That will not change no matter how much Bruce believes himself to be a woman. Life simply doesn't work that way. Reality is callous at times, I'll give you that... it is why one should always wear a helmet.

a reply to: PhatalError

Strange....the first link i clicked on is a college text for A&P.

You might try looking again.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

If they are transitioning, they shouldn't be competing except in places like rec league co-ed.