A Question Regarding Transgender People and Transitioning

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: Boadicea

I believe the logic falls apart when you remove the act of outward expression from the equation in order to ascertain the meaning of gender independently of that expression.

Okay... but I would have to say that millions of scientists and researchers of all types would disagree, understanding that one cannot fully understand the whole without understanding the parts, and sometimes isolating those parts for individual study, as well as removing those parts to study the effect on the whole.

So there is logic in isolating/omitting superficial and subjective outward expressions in an effort to better understand this complex matter. Including the influence of nature vs. nurture.

a reply to: Boadicea

I understand how experimentation works.

What I'm saying is that gender expression, as we understand it, is an integral part of understanding gender in particular.

It is not all entirely up to the interpretation of the individual, it isn't all the clothes or the make-up and a choice, it's also the neurological (to read genetic) outward expression of internal mechanics.

Including the influence of nature vs. nurture.

You most certainly cannot make this differentiation without the inclusion of outward gender expressions.

Only further data will take this from the realm of opinion and conjecture, which is where we are right now.

I've read a lot of studies lately on this topic because I want to better understand it beyond the arguments on ATS and my own opinions and biases. Many of those studies describe what could be viewed as epigenetic expressions with regard to gender dysphoria and some are researching this angle specifically. It is these angles of research that I am waiting on. While the biological mechanism of transgender individuals is still inconclusive, there are studies out there cataloging potential genetic markers and transgendered-persons-specific genomic characteristics.

Genomic Characteristics of Gender Dysphoria Patients and Identification of Rare Mutations in RYR3 Gene

I simply fail to see what we can learn from taking the outward expression of gender out of the equation when far more insightful and empirical avenues are available.

a reply to: projectvxn

I simply fail to see what we can learn from taking the outward expression of gender out of the equation when far more insightful and empirical avenues are available.

Well, I think that's exactly what we need to do in many ways and circumstances and for many reasons, chief among them is that it's impossible to define anyone by gender.

However, there are also biological factors involved -- yes, plural, because I believe there are many root causes and sources for gender dysphoria and gender identity disorder; perhaps sometimes genetic, perhaps taking place during gestation but brought about by outside factors, or perhaps environmental factors at critical stages of childhood development, or perhaps simply a broken part that causes the body to produce too much or too little of something... perhaps many things.

But my issue with "outward expression" of genders is that beyond traditional societal norms, what constitutes an outward expression of gender? And who decides if it's male or female in nature?

Even regarding societal norms, I can see how many traits assigned to gender evolved from what was probably very practical reasons during, for example, the hunter/gatherer period. And as the years and centuries and ages passed, skills were developed and expanded and passed down from generation to generation. So to a great extent, certain skills and traits were associated with gender because those were the skills and traits they needed in their world. But with today's technology and resources, what was once practical isn't so much any more.

I tend to think this can be and should be the beginning of a new attitude towards gender so to speak... when we re-think gender roles anyway (beyond the physical realities)... a time when we can explore and evolve according to our time's resources and circumstances, and our own potentials and aptitudes.

hey bodacious.

i recently watched a TED talk, the speaker of which and the topic was on his (female to male) transition. it was plenty IMO awful in the several ways such as suggesting that society ought to change in order to accommodate transgendered, such as having the correct pronoun on the driver's license. some things are just over the top IMO. (i am a gay man).

but his message was effective in one particular aspect, in which he proposed simply to imagine yourself getting up in the morning and on your trip to the bathroom, looking in the mirror and seeing, to your horror that you no longer had any breasts.... and worse, removing your pants to find that you have a penis!

when i imagined this for myself, i understood the special type of hell it would be for me to see (and feel) a vagina down there. as a gay, i have spent a lifetime wanting to have as little as possible with vaginas!

so yeah. i get that there is a profound and difficult to explain sense of beingness associated with what you 'expect' to see in the mirror.

good of you to try to come to an understanding of queer-types. as common as tolerance and acceptance are these days, we still have a long way to go before our 'otherness' disappears from the cultural landscape.

👍🌈

dkp

originally posted by: tgidkp
hey bodacious.

i recently watched a TED talk, the speaker of which and the topic was on his (female to male) transition...

TED talks! Thank you!!! I'm going to check some of those out... hopefully including the one you watched as well.

...it was plenty IMO awful in the several ways such as suggesting that society ought to change in order to accommodate transgendered, such as having the correct pronoun on the driver's license. some things are just over the top IMO. (i am a gay man).

I can't speak to this specific person's suggestions, but generally speaking, I know what you mean... at the same time, I also understand somewhat where they are coming from and why and what they are trying to achieve. Unfortunately, society as a whole has set a very bad example to follow of its own unreasonable demands on others. Vicious circle, eh?

...but his message was effective in one particular aspect, in which he proposed simply to imagine yourself getting up in the morning and on your trip to the bathroom, looking in the mirror and seeing, to your horror that you no longer had any breasts.... and worse, removing your pants to find that you have a penis!

I can only really speak for myself, but I think this kind of analogy confuses many of us more than it helps. Not because we can't "imagine," but because we've been taught that our imaginings aren't real... it's just in our heads... made up out of whole cloth.

when i imagined this for myself, i understood the special type of hell it would be for me to see (and feel) a vagina down there. as a gay, i have spent a lifetime wanting to have as little as possible with vaginas!

That made me chuckle! Not at you, but hopefully with you I think we can all relate to trying to avoid something our whole lives only to have it keep popping up and staring us in the face... just like that proverbial bad penny!

so yeah. i get that there is a profound and difficult to explain sense of beingness associated with what you 'expect' to see in the mirror.

I think I'm starting to get that. Not in exactly the same way, but in the process of discussing this and considering the various points made, I'm better understanding where I'm coming from, and how my own experiences have shaped my perspective both in general and in specific. In my case, the potential and/or perceived stigma I had to deal with was losing internal female body parts due to medical issues... which made me "less than a woman" in the eyes of some. But I refused to let myself be defined by my body parts or the lack thereof. And so today, as I consider the plight of the gender dysphoric, I guess it's no wonder that I cannot understand defining anyone by their body parts. At least I'm consistent. Or maybe just bullheaded!

good of you to try to come to an understanding of queer-types. as common as tolerance and acceptance are these days, we still have a long way to go before our 'otherness' disappears from the cultural landscape.

👍🌈

dkp

Thank you for your kind words... and thank you for adding "acceptance"! I really don't like the word "tolerance" because it implies that one is just putting up with bad behavior. I much prefer "acceptance" and "respect." Because that's really what it's about.... Accepting and respecting the free will and choices of others in their pursuit of happiness. If folks aren't hurting anyone, leave them be.

a reply to: Boadicea

and thank you for adding "acceptance"! I really don't like the word "tolerance" because it implies that one is just putting up with bad behavior. I much prefer "acceptance" and "respect."

Understanding is where I am right now.

Whenever I find my biases are getting in the way of an honest discussion I try to step back and defer to the data. I need to be able to analyze something before I can understand it and ultimately reject or accept it.

Understanding is far better than tolerance.

I've been casually discussing transgender issues on ATS without much regard to how my biases are filtering information. This has lead to a lot of misunderstandings and arguments that I believe have been extremely unproductive. I have found that sticking to the data is both enlightening and a sort of grease for the cogs of discussion.

a reply to: projectvxn

Understanding is where I am right now.

I'm trying... I don't know how else to find appropriate answers.

I have found that sticking to the data is both enlightening and a sort of grease for the cogs of discussion.

Both a practical and productive approach in many ways and for many reasons. I think at this point that any approach that doesn't involve insults and fighting as practical and productive.

a reply to: Boadicea

Both a practical and productive approach in many ways and for many reasons. I think at this point that any approach that doesn't involve insults and fighting as practical and productive.

I'm trying to get away from that too. Especially on a subject that does not personally affect me.

a reply to: Boadicea

a report published in April 2011 by the Williams Institute estimated that 3.8 percent of Americans identified as gay/lesbian, bisexual, or transgender: 1.7 percent as lesbian or gay, 1.8 percent as bisexual, and 0.3 percent as transgender.


there are literally far less trans people then there are reporters talking about trans people, people discussing and questioning trans people.

there are far far more conspiracy theorists in this nation alone then there are trans worldwide.
wheres our acceptance? wheres our cultural movement?!

originally posted by: NobodiesNormal
a reply to: Boadicea

a report published in April 2011 by the Williams Institute estimated that 3.8 percent of Americans identified as gay/lesbian, bisexual, or transgender: 1.7 percent as lesbian or gay, 1.8 percent as bisexual, and 0.3 percent as transgender.

there are literally far less trans people then there are reporters talking about trans people, people discussing and questioning trans people.

Your point is well taken. I would also point out that those talking most and loudest about trans people are really only speaking to and for a small percentage of those with gender issues (it should also be pointed that those gender issues vary greatly), and they advocate for the most extreme remedies -- both medically and legally. It's obvious at some point that the agenda is being pushed isn't for the benefit of those suffering, but for those in power.

there are far far more conspiracy theorists in this nation alone then there are trans worldwide.
wheres our acceptance? wheres our cultural movement?!

Hmmmm... the very thought worries me! If we were suddenly accepted by the mainstream, that would be the biggest red flag of all!!!!

I prefer being an outlier