Finally discovered the true roots of evil

Ooooo....k, So I knew this would be a difficult thread but I think we are getting there.
A few things I think we can all agree on....
1) All these things are relative (or at least the majority consensus is that they are perceived so)

2) Most of us agree there is no shadow without light no concept of good without bad... right?

Lets imagine we're creating a simulation and all 'sim people' are given purpose but All actions fall within a spectrum that has two opposing scales ...for argument's sake we will say runs evil 100 to 0,and good runs from 0-100, however, nothing done by man will have a value of 0 in either scale, so, for example, cold-blooded murder would sit at 99 evil therefore it could equally be read as 1% good since it fit a scale can we agree that works ?

Do we agree that whatever the cause ...whatever created good in doing so created evil ? I like what Seede quoted

Isaiah_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

However that still does not get us to the root of evil.....or good for that matter..

Is free will the root of good and evil
Could there be good or bad without free will?


I guess some would argue that if we had no free will than the only way that could exist is if we were controlled...

Is there a duality with control and free will - well certainly there is a spectrum

originally posted by: urbanfox
Is free will the root of good and evil

Revenge is the root in this case as Lucifer wants to get revenge on his commanding officer (God) for trapping him in a quantum environment that we all call the Universe.

So for a mortal to rise high in the world, Lucifer buys their weak soul and makes them do evil things to innocent people as a form of cowardly revenge against God.

Bombing innocent women and children is a common predictable tactic that Lucifuhrer gets his little grunts to do on a daily basis.

i guess its how to define religion.

If you define it as an unwavering belief in something while refusing to accept the truth. then yeah i could see religion being the root of evil.

This trait is in all humans and it should be one of our goals to abolish this way of thinking.

a reply to: urbanfox

Why do human actions have to be split into concepts of either good or evil in the first place? Isn't that creating a false dichotomy? For instance, when my alarm goes off in the morning, I get up, put some clothes on, walk my dog, take a shower, get dressed, then drive to work. Is that either good or evil? I'd argue it is neither. It's something else.

Comparing human actions to shadow and light is a rather shallow way of interpreting human behavior. There are actions that are traditionally viewed as good but done with evil intents, and there are actions typically viewed as evil done with good intents. Then there are actions that are neither good nor evil. Does eating to survive count as good or evil? What if you already have plenty and are overweight? But then what decides on what "plenty" is in the first place?

Im not saying every action is good OR evil I'm Saying every action is on a spectrum between good and evil.... with neutral being the middle ground..... but every action having the possibility of wavering at either end by choice ie

I get up, ( because I know people are relying on me- or ..... and I don't wake my partner allowing them to be late for work)

put some clothes on ( *because I don't want to make things awkward with my flatmate Lol....or they're not my clothes but I'm having them!)
, walk my dog (because he needs some fresh air before I go to work ....or because then he can take a dump on my neighbour's lawn let it be his problem)
take a shower (because I don't want my work colleagues to have to put up with my body odour all day... or because I want a shower to hell with my flatmate I don't care if there's no more hot water he can have a cold shower before his interview, )

get dressed (see above *, )

then drive to work. (because I dont want to be late and disapoint my boss .....or coz I dont care if im still drunk (I dont care if i am putting others at risk thats there look out))

Im not saying you always go through those thoughts ... but its sometimes the cause and effect of an action and not the action its self that becomes evil)

originally posted by: MrConspiracy

originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: MrConspiracy

Like St Paul said: Sin is breaking the law. Before the law there was no sin. Do we believe this?

Are we suggesting we only know right from wrong because we are told what's right and what's wrong?

Or do we have a natural moral compass? That predates any form of religious teaching?

i have thought about this and would like to offer a response. I agree with question 2 :
Or do we have a natural moral compass? That predates any form of religious teaching?

The reason is if we go back before there was any religion, before philosophy, societies, even before humans and look at the animals, even there, we see a sense of good and evil, right and wrong reflected in their behavior. Yes, they kill. Some animals might even kill for sport but call it instinct or whatever, most animals (mammals anyway) will protect their young. Self defense could even be a form of the good. Some defend their packs or hives or whatever. I believe what we call conscience derives from these primitive instincts and is hardwired into the human psyche. Maybe you want to play philosophical games or are just confused but everyone has this. To actually believe in moral relativity is a serious defect in character, abnormal and not really human.

originally posted by: urbanfox
Is free will the root of good and evil

Animals are free will creature beside human being. A lion can kill young cubs, mate with many female lions, no issue with taboo and incest, kill other animals in cold blood, rob other lions' territory etc..

Nobody classified lion's free will as evil. We simply call them wild. So no. Free will is not the root of good and evil.

originally posted by: urbanfox
Could there be good or bad without free will?

There are pre-programmed sexbots as well as industrial robots. We don't correlated their actions as good or bad, instead we question their maker/programmer motivation. Because it's obvious robots are like babies. They don't get to decide for themselves.

The same thing with "Simulation" human in "computerized universe". This humans are scripted to behave according to their specific life story, based on their designer's motivation. Some are scripted to being grumble all the times. Some are scripted to be devoted religious or mysticals zealots. They can be unique, but their basic survival instincts are always the same as animals. There is no good or evil in animals, non-life sentients/robots and virtual simulated humans.

We are not like them, however.

I think most of us would agree that basically Good is what is beneficial to common man and evil is what is not

Most people on this forum and rigt-wingers in general will disagree with you on that.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Define "perfect will". Don't use the bible either.

Perfect will is the absence of permissive will.

a reply to: namehere

there is no such thing as evil, it's all about perspective.

Evil gave you that choice that you have chosen to be a perspective did it not? Isn't perspective a point of view and isn't a point of view a choice and without evil nothing could have been a gift of choice to give you a perspective. All of existence is an opposite to itself. Without evil, good could not exist. Without good, evil could not exist. Think outside of the box for your answer.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: urbanfox

What is the difference between good and evil?

Is it not written that - "Isaiah_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Think upon this and you will have your answer. Creation cannot have choice without evil.

Do you know what quote mining is?

Did you read the context, who it was written to and about what
You should put in a tad more effort before displaying your ignorance

a reply to: urbanfox

Ok so from the above I think most of us would agree that basically Good is what is beneficial to common man and evil is what is not.

That's not really what it says.

It says that good and evil is clearly based upon ones perception and judgement.

Organised evil. Ok so where here does it come from? ....I'm gonna draw fire here but there's no other way to put it - Religion is at the heart of organised evil.

and

Ok so just to clarify and ensure we are on the same page I'm talking about organised evil here, The reasons for a individual's evil actions normally stem from the influence of : organised evil ( I will go into this in a moment ) Mental health Greed Jealousy Anger (and sometimes if were honest) -Need there may be other causes but that probably covers the bases

What is the difference between evil and organized evil?

If good and evil are very abstract concepts then the answers to the questions are simply your opinion, your perception.

Which comes back to what evil and good are and how they differ which was said in the quoted difference you shared.

Its your perception that something is evil or good based on a limited view and how your environment influences you to make that judgement.

originally posted by: urbanfox
What is the difference between good and evil?

Good and evil are both very abstract concepts. Most philosophies accept the dualism of good and evil. Good coexists with evil and there can be no thing such as ‘good’ unless there is ‘evil’ and vice versa.

Good Versus Evil​—An Agelong Battle

...
Not only are there these sporadic outbursts of evil but there is another horrific evil that affects the world​—genocide. It is calculated that one million Armenians, six million Jews, and over one million Cambodians have been exterminated in racial and political purges in this century alone. So-called ethnic cleansing has stricken many in the former Yugoslavia. Nobody knows how many millions of innocent people have been brutally tortured around the globe.

Tragedies such as these force us to confront the disturbing question, Why do people act in such a way? We cannot dismiss these atrocities as the product of a few deranged minds. The sheer scope of the evil done in our century belies such an explanation.

An evil deed is defined as one that is morally wrong. It is an act perpetrated by someone who can choose between doing good and doing evil. Somehow his moral judgment becomes warped and evil wins out. But why and how does this happen?

Religious explanations for evil are often unsatisfying. Catholic philosopher Thomas Aquinas claimed that “many good things would be taken away if God permitted no evil to exist.” Many Protestant philosophers hold similar views. For example, as stated in The Encyclopædia Britannica, Gottfried Leibniz considered evil to be “a mere set-off to the good in the world, which it increases by contrast.” In other words, he believed we need the evil so that we can appreciate the good. Such reasoning is like telling a cancer patient that his sickness is just what is needed in order to make someone else feel truly alive and well.

Evil intentions must come from somewhere. Is God indirectly to blame? The Bible answers: “When under trial, let no one say: ‘I am being tried by God.’ For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.” If God is not responsible, who is? The following verses give the answer: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin.” (James 1:13-15) Thus an evil deed is born when an evil desire is nurtured rather than rejected. However, that is not the whole picture.
...
Can human imperfection alone explain the orchestrated evil of our time? Historian Jeffrey Burton Russell observed: “It is true that there is evil in each of us, but adding together even large numbers of individual evils does not explain an Auschwitz . . . Evil on this scale seems to be qualitatively as well as quantitatively different.” It was none other than Jesus Christ who pinpointed this qualitatively different source of evil.

Not long before his death, Jesus explained that the men who were planning to kill him were not acting entirely of their own volition. An unseen force guided them. Jesus told them: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth.” (John 8:44) The Devil, whom Jesus called “the ruler of this world,” clearly has a prominent role in fomenting evil.​—John 16:11; 1 John 5:19.
...

Will Good Ever Conquer Evil?

NEARLY two thousand years ago, Jesus Christ, an innocent man, was on trial for his life. Evil men were plotting to destroy him because he spoke the truth. He was falsely accused of sedition, and the crowd clamored for his execution. A Roman governor, who valued his own political prestige more highly than the life of a humble carpenter, condemned Jesus to a cruel death. To all outward appearances, it seemed that evil had triumphed.

However, the night before his execution, Jesus told his disciples: “I have conquered the world.” (John 16:33) What did he mean? In part, that the evil in the world had neither embittered him nor made him retaliate in like manner. The world had not squeezed him into an evil mold. (Compare Romans 12:2, Phillips.) Even when dying, he prayed in behalf of his executioners: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”​—Luke 23:34.

Jesus demonstrated​—until his dying breath—​that evil can be conquered. He urged his followers to fight their own battle against evil. How can they do that? By heeding the Scriptural advice to “return evil for evil to no one” and to “keep conquering the evil with the good,” as Jesus had done. (Romans 12:17, 21) But does such a course really work?

Fighting Evil in Dachau
...
Conquering the Evil Within Us
...
Bringing the Devil to Nothing
...
“They Shall Not Do Evil”

As King of God’s Kingdom, Jesus will soon use his ‘authority on the earth’ to organize a program of spiritual reeducation. “Righteousness is what the inhabitants of the productive land will certainly learn.” (Isaiah 26:9) The benefits will be obvious to everyone. The Bible assures us: “They will not do any harm [“they shall not do evil,” Green’s Interlinear Hebrew/​Greek English Bible] or cause any ruin . . . because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.”​—Isaiah 11:9.
...

God will end evil forever. Psalm 37:9:

For evil men will be done away with,

But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Do you know what quote mining is?

Don't quite understand your point but yes I do know what the term quote mining is. Can you elaborate your intent? If you have a question or remark then by all means please engage.

Are you also aware that --
2Timothy_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
As this was written the NT was not given as yet and with that understanding it was the scriptures such as Isaiah that is referenced by Timothy.

Isaiah 45:5-7
(5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
(6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
(7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Was light, darkness, peace, evil given only to one or some, or was light, darkness, peace, evil given to all? What say you?

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Raggedyman

Do you know what quote mining is?

Don't quite understand your point but yes I do know what the term quote mining is. Can you elaborate your intent? If you have a question or remark then by all means please engage.

Are you also aware that --
2Timothy_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
As this was written the NT was not given as yet and with that understanding it was the scriptures such as Isaiah that is referenced by Timothy.

Isaiah 45:5-7
(5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
(6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
(7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Was light, darkness, peace, evil given only to one or some, or was light, darkness, peace, evil given to all? What say you?

Well the word "evil" from the original Greek is "Ra", not just the simple word evil
There are many ways it could be understood
You really need to understand more than context, knowing Greek and the way things where written 2000 years ago is very important as well.

In Isaiah the OT Hebrew, the translated word is kattawaw, evil is a simple but very rough translation, it's just not accurate
Yes there are small textual errors in the translation, that's why the bible needs to be studied in depth.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Well the word "evil" from the original Greek is "Ra", not just the simple word evil There are many ways it could be understood You really need to understand more than context, knowing Greek and the way things where written 2000 years ago is very important as well.

But I am not in the Greek am I ? In what respect does Greek affect Isaiah 45:7? What I quoted in my first post was Hebrew [Isaiah 45:7] which is addressed concerning Cyrus. I care not what your Greek lexicon's tell you in this event of Isaiah and The Most High El. It has nothing to do with the translation of God creating evil or making peace or forming light or creating darkness. Those are very well understood by Rashi and the scholars such as Heiser and yes context is the absolutes of understanding any literature. I do believe you need to rethink your criticism.

The entire matter is that you can not have choice without evil and evil is the contextual understanding of permissive and perfect will of the Creator.

a reply to: Seede

I think we will one day have the capacity of choice without evil in its purest form
I can think anything, there is a lot I don't understand

Pi... aka Π... aka 3.141

3 reps the prison> "Lands, Seas, And Skies"
1 reps the criminal> "Race" (there can only be one)
4 reps the crime> "Government, Politics, Demands, And Ethics"
1 reps the ?> "Economics"

This Life Is A Crime Against Many. Yet... We May Be Blameless. The Root... Is... Um... Uh... Hmmm...
Get Back To You On That.

On a subject like this Biblical gets into it....so one has to rightly divide the truth in Scripture......

God had evil Giants to kill in whole cities........they made it through the flood barely by the blood of one of three sons of Noah

Joshua went kill all of them but didn't get the ones in Gath or uz or hauk.........Goliath was from Gath

and his four brothers.....that's why King David picked up 5 stones........all in there if ya study it