UK Authorities Crack Down On Nazi Dogs And Angry Drivers While Forcing Parents To Watch Baby Die

originally posted by: Xenogears

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

"but if he is off breathing/heart regulation and is living then no...he isn't dying"

But 70% of his brain is destroyed already and this will only get progressively worse.

Oh say I have terminal cancer, a few months left to live.... guess it's time to cut the food and water and die from dehydration or starve to death.

I'm sorry but euthanasia and suicide are illegal. IF the person themselves cannot kill themselves because they are in pain, how can the state have the power to kill them just because they think there might be pain?

This is euthanasia, or worse, it is the same as euthanasia only it isn't the patient asking for it but the state.

Your right ID go as far as state sanctioned murder. The state has decided they know whats best for the child,removing parental rights. They then claim the procedure offered and not available in the UK wouldn't help. I know as a parent I would move heaven and earth to save my child. It bothers me that people defend the actions of a state that is giving death sentences to people they deem undesirable. My God they have police holding this child hostage against the parents will. All I know is the police wouldn't stop me my child would be in the Italian embassy since he is now an Italian citizen. Think about this another country made the child a state citizen to give them treatment. I'm disappointed in the UK citizens they would allow there government to do this.

originally posted by: Xenogears

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: ScepticScot

Explain how?

A because a child with degenerative brain disease, from which he will never recover, has no ability and never has had the ability to indicate or even form a judgment about what they would want to happen to them. That is why we have a legal system to look after their interests.

Not the same as a granny who needs a home help.

This is ridiculous. IF the child could speak and asked for assisted suicide, it would be illegal to grant him that. Yet taking away food, water, and breathing support is essentially assisted suicide if asked to do so by a conscious person in a vegetative state.

Withholding life support is not the same as assisted suicide.

If someone is capable of making a decision about receiving life support or not than they can do so.

When they are not capable it is an agreement between the doctors and next of kin.

Only when an agreement can't be reached then it becomes a matter for the courts.

If anyone can think of a better system then feel free to share.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Xenogears

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

"but if he is off breathing/heart regulation and is living then no...he isn't dying"

But 70% of his brain is destroyed already and this will only get progressively worse.

Oh say I have terminal cancer, a few months left to live.... guess it's time to cut the food and water and die from dehydration or starve to death.

I'm sorry but euthanasia and suicide are illegal. IF the person themselves cannot kill themselves because they are in pain, how can the state have the power to kill them just because they think there might be pain?

This is euthanasia, or worse, it is the same as euthanasia only it isn't the patient asking for it but the state.

Your right ID go as far as state sanctioned murder. The state has decided they know whats best for the child,removing parental rights. They then claim the procedure offered and not available in the UK wouldn't help. I know as a parent I would move heaven and earth to save my child. It bothers me that people defend the actions of a state that is giving death sentences to people they deem undesirable. My God they have police holding this child hostage against the parents will. All I know is the police wouldn't stop me my child would be in the Italian embassy since he is now an Italian citizen. Think about this another country made the child a state citizen to give them treatment. I'm disappointed in the UK citizens they would allow there government to do this.

No one is going to save the child. It's only the timing of his death that is being decided. In the judgement of the court its better to leave him die now than have it drag on with no hope of recovery.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Xenogears

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

"but if he is off breathing/heart regulation and is living then no...he isn't dying"

But 70% of his brain is destroyed already and this will only get progressively worse.

Oh say I have terminal cancer, a few months left to live.... guess it's time to cut the food and water and die from dehydration or starve to death.

I'm sorry but euthanasia and suicide are illegal. IF the person themselves cannot kill themselves because they are in pain, how can the state have the power to kill them just because they think there might be pain?

This is euthanasia, or worse, it is the same as euthanasia only it isn't the patient asking for it but the state.

Your right ID go as far as state sanctioned murder. The state has decided they know whats best for the child,removing parental rights. They then claim the procedure offered and not available in the UK wouldn't help. I know as a parent I would move heaven and earth to save my child. It bothers me that people defend the actions of a state that is giving death sentences to people they deem undesirable. My God they have police holding this child hostage against the parents will. All I know is the police wouldn't stop me my child would be in the Italian embassy since he is now an Italian citizen. Think about this another country made the child a state citizen to give them treatment. I'm disappointed in the UK citizens they would allow there government to do this.

No one is going to save the child. It's only the timing of his death that is being decided. In the judgement of the court its better to leave him die now than have it drag on with no hope of recovery.

And the doctors can guarantee they are correct by refusing the parents a second opinion? You do realize even the pope has pleaded to release this child. And as I said as a parent it would take more then 20 police officers to stop me if there was any hope. But the state in this case made a decision even though other doctors have said we have an experimental treatment that may help. I remember thus happened before a US hospital said they could help the child and instead the state deemed them unworthy to live.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Xenogears

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

"but if he is off breathing/heart regulation and is living then no...he isn't dying"

But 70% of his brain is destroyed already and this will only get progressively worse.

Oh say I have terminal cancer, a few months left to live.... guess it's time to cut the food and water and die from dehydration or starve to death.

I'm sorry but euthanasia and suicide are illegal. IF the person themselves cannot kill themselves because they are in pain, how can the state have the power to kill them just because they think there might be pain?

This is euthanasia, or worse, it is the same as euthanasia only it isn't the patient asking for it but the state.

Your right ID go as far as state sanctioned murder. The state has decided they know whats best for the child,removing parental rights. They then claim the procedure offered and not available in the UK wouldn't help. I know as a parent I would move heaven and earth to save my child. It bothers me that people defend the actions of a state that is giving death sentences to people they deem undesirable. My God they have police holding this child hostage against the parents will. All I know is the police wouldn't stop me my child would be in the Italian embassy since he is now an Italian citizen. Think about this another country made the child a state citizen to give them treatment. I'm disappointed in the UK citizens they would allow there government to do this.

No one is going to save the child. It's only the timing of his death that is being decided. In the judgement of the court its better to leave him die now than have it drag on with no hope of recovery.

And the doctors can guarantee they are correct by refusing the parents a second opinion? You do realize even the pope has pleaded to release this child. And as I said as a parent it would take more then 20 police officers to stop me if there was any hope. But the state in this case made a decision even though other doctors have said we have an experimental treatment that may help. I remember thus happened before a US hospital said they could help the child and instead the state deemed them unworthy to live.

They have had multiple opinions including from doctors at the hospital they wish to send him to.

A good article describing how this terrible tragedy has been taken over by all sorts of nut-jobs and activists. I pretty much agree with the whole article and see many of the behaviours described in the article being mirrored in this discussion.

You’ll find American gun lobby enthusiasts ranting on about how this is what happens when “the government” runs people’s lives and that’s why everyone needs to keep hold of their weapons; never mind that this decision has nothing to do with the government, resting as it does on the independent judgment of doctors upheld by an independent judiciary.

and

For in British law, what matters is what is in the best interest of the child, not of the parents or the doctors or wider public opinion, and certainly not of organised religion.

Source Guardian article

a reply to: paraphi

That's just trying to make accusations to defuse the situation. The American gun Moby isn't even involved in this. This is simply people going look over there.You want the truth the UK government doesn't want to run the risk of another hospital diagnosing the child. Two reasons one the UK doctors are clueless as to whats happening to the child. And two if Alfie went to another hospital and was successfully treated no one would ever believe an end of life assessment from the UK again. This child must die to protect the UK healthcare system.

Reality is the UK doctors lose nothing if the child gets a second opinion unless they are wrong

originally posted by: shooterbrody
are the police threatening people for making social media posts about this child?

I dont think anyone is saying anything offensive about the child, the parents put it out on social media and are reaping the backlash.

If the parents take offense, its probably a dangerous road the authorities tread on 'threatening' or prosecuting anything said against the parents.

Public interest seems to be shifting pretty fast against the left and the more they cater for oppressing opinions, the more peoples votes they will lose.

Unfortunately in the UK its a two party system with most people not really seeing that much between them so they dont bother voting.

When Brexit went to the vote, 77% responded because it was quite binary compared to around 55% for a general election. The more the 2 parties push further to the left, it will become another binary point and the population will turn out again.

a reply to: ScepticScot

You are fighting a good fight, it tires me of the monotonous record, its a debate that will go nowhere, I read Americans saying they would take their child from the hospital at gunpoint because they have those rights!

Scary that a borderline retarded gun owner who cannot accept a professional decision in favor of a 'dead' child would support taking the child at gunpoint to do as they believe right with them.

However, it seems in this case the parents realize it has got out of hand and perhaps they were caught up in the emotion.

For me, the most poignant moment was the life support was withdrawn, have some time and say goodbye to your son, its not your fault, its not his fault, there is just nothing left to do for the poor mite. Let him go and remember him for the fight he put up, not the social media, Catholic, lawsuit circus that may ruin the memory of poor Alfie.

Rest in peace when you pass little Alfie.

originally posted by: Forensick
a reply to: ScepticScot

You are fighting a good fight, it tires me of the monotonous record, its a debate that will go nowhere, I read Americans saying they would take their child from the hospital at gunpoint because they have those rights!

Scary that a borderline retarded gun owner who cannot accept a professional decision in favor of a 'dead' child would support taking the child at gunpoint to do as they believe right with them.

However, it seems in this case the parents realize it has got out of hand and perhaps they were caught up in the emotion.

For me, the most poignant moment was the life support was withdrawn, have some time and say goodbye to your son, its not your fault, its not his fault, there is just nothing left to do for the poor mite. Let him go and remember him for the fight he put up, not the social media, Catholic, lawsuit circus that may ruin the memory of poor Alfie.

Rest in peace when you pass little Alfie.

Sad your some how trying to link this to guns. Has nothing to do with guns the reason this shocks Americans is because we don't believe the right to determine whats best for us belongs to the state. This is a family decision and a state stepping in to decide what should be a family decision is wrong. Just shows me the UK is well on the road to communism. Good luck with that journey

a reply to: dragonridr

Perhaps you should read the Guardian article.

The snip I made was more in reference to the oft cited accusation so far in this loooong discussion that the UK government was murdering a child. Don't dwell on the gun lobby stuff if that is problematic, but be aware that on social media and elsewhere there has been reference to guns. That is, "... ye ha, take away our guns and before you know it the government will start to kill our children, as in the UK".

Here it is again Guardian article

... and here's the snip without the guns...

... never mind that this decision has nothing to do with the government, resting as it does on the independent judgment of doctors upheld by an independent judiciary.

I have followed the sad case of Alfie Evans, without medical knowledge I bow

down to those with the expertise and experience for the best outcome. This case

has brought out the worst in humanity and it has been hijaxed by many for their

own agenda's religious, political, and otherwise.


I too lost a baby many years ago in fairly similar circumstances, so I am not

unaware of the parents pain, Had my daughter been born now with a transplant

she would probably have survived.

The 'cards have been dealt' the game must be played for the best results.


I personally am in awe of the medical profession.

Fanatical. Deluded. Emotive nonsense.These are unusually strong terms for a judge to use, particularly in a case as intensely sad and bitterly contested as that of the terminally ill child Alfie Evans. Yet Mr Justice Hayden, referring to some of the campaigners now surrounding Alfie’s parents, did not mince his words, after this most hellish of ethical dilemmas.
The judge was careful not to attach blame to Tom Evans and Kate James, who cannot accept the settled view of their son’s doctors that his brain has been damaged catastrophically by an as yet undiagnosed condition, or that the intensive treatment required to keep him alive is no longer in his best interest and may be causing him suffering.

Sympathies in this case are with the doctors facing death threats for doing what they honestly believe is the right thing

The most disturbing aspect of this case is the sense that it is now being exploited by those who see Alfie not as a desperately sick little boy, but as an expedient means of advancing their own ideological cause.
That description doesn’t just apply to the pro-life movement, of course. Among Alfie’s viscerally engaged army of Facebook supporters, you will find anti-vaxxers using the story to peddle utterly deluded junk science theories about the Vitamin K injection every newborn gets. You’ll find American gun lobby enthusiasts ranting on about how this is what happens when “the government” runs people’s lives and that’s why everyone needs to keep hold of their weapons; never mind that this decision has nothing to do with the government, resting as it does on the independent judgment of doctors upheld by an independent judiciary.

Others have sought to use the case to score cheap, wildly inaccurate points over healthcare reform in the US; to claim this is where “socialised medicine” gets you, when without the NHS and its daily miracle of providing treatment free at the point of use, Alfie’s parents would now be struggling with medical bills running into the millions.

Staff at Alder Hey children’s hospital have experienced a horrific barrage of death threats and other online abuse. There have been ugly scenes at the hospital too, reports of over-zealous protesters blocking ambulances or intimidating visitors and patients. It is all too uncomfortably reminiscent of those who harass pregnant women outside abortion clinics and threaten to kill doctors offering terminations, so high on their *self-righteous* mission to save that all other human lives cease to matter.

But none of that is quite what the judge meant. His concern centres specifically on the way the Evans family has been taken under the wing of a hitherto little-known evangelical group called the Christian Legal Centre, which has supplied the parents with a barrister and, somewhat dubiously, the services of a law student named Pavel Stroilov. A statement drafted for Alfie’s father was, according to Hayden, loaded with “vituperation and bile” against the hospital, At one point, Stroilov apparently became party to an attempt by Alfie’s father to have the doctors prosecuted for murder.

The family’s former solicitor Mary Holmes has accused activists of seeking to “keep this child alive at any costs" using the case to raise their profile with interventions such as securing Tom Evans an audience with the pope. Most seriously, Stroilov stands accused of giving Evans inaccurate advice in a letter stating that he had the legal right to remove his son from the hospital, despite a court order to the contrary, causing an understandably emotional standoff between the parents and the hospital

The judge’s objection to an outpouring of what he called “emotive nonsense” in his courtroom is not to be confused with heartlessness. Rather, it is a recognition that courts are the one place where, in cases like these, reason can still prevail over white-hot emotion; that their job is to provide a calm enough environment for doctors facing impossibly difficult choices to explain their clinical reasoning, and for evidence to be considered on its merits. For in British law, what matters is what is in the best interest of the child, not of the parents or the doctors or wider public opinion, and certainly not of organised religion. The court process functions only when the adults involved can be mature enough to put their own interests to one side

And while advocacy may mean fighting to the bitter end, there are times when it means gently introducing a client to the idea that it is time to stop; that however unreconciled they are to a painful verdict, it isn’t going to change.

The church’s role can be to give hope where secular medicine has none. Light a candle, say a prayer, and just for a minute you might believe in a miracle. Yet that is not its only role at the end of life, when the dying and the grieving are looking as much for comfort as for hope; and for help in accepting the inevitable.

www.theguardian.com...


That about sums up my feelings on this tragic case and better put than i could have

with that said I bow out of the skirmishes of any other Alfie Evans threads.


May the mother and father of Alfie find peace and solace.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Forensick
a reply to: ScepticScot

You are fighting a good fight, it tires me of the monotonous record, its a debate that will go nowhere, I read Americans saying they would take their child from the hospital at gunpoint because they have those rights!

Scary that a borderline retarded gun owner who cannot accept a professional decision in favor of a 'dead' child would support taking the child at gunpoint to do as they believe right with them.

However, it seems in this case the parents realize it has got out of hand and perhaps they were caught up in the emotion.

For me, the most poignant moment was the life support was withdrawn, have some time and say goodbye to your son, its not your fault, its not his fault, there is just nothing left to do for the poor mite. Let him go and remember him for the fight he put up, not the social media, Catholic, lawsuit circus that may ruin the memory of poor Alfie.

Rest in peace when you pass little Alfie.

Sad your some how trying to link this to guns. Has nothing to do with guns the reason this shocks Americans is because we don't believe the right to determine whats best for us belongs to the state. This is a family decision and a state stepping in to decide what should be a family decision is wrong. Just shows me the UK is well on the road to communism. Good luck with that journey

Really communism now, get a grip, some of you have such hardcore chicken little syndrome I don't know how you get through your day to day.... Give it a rest already.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Forensick
a reply to: ScepticScot

You are fighting a good fight, it tires me of the monotonous record, its a debate that will go nowhere, I read Americans saying they would take their child from the hospital at gunpoint because they have those rights!

Scary that a borderline retarded gun owner who cannot accept a professional decision in favor of a 'dead' child would support taking the child at gunpoint to do as they believe right with them.

However, it seems in this case the parents realize it has got out of hand and perhaps they were caught up in the emotion.

For me, the most poignant moment was the life support was withdrawn, have some time and say goodbye to your son, its not your fault, its not his fault, there is just nothing left to do for the poor mite. Let him go and remember him for the fight he put up, not the social media, Catholic, lawsuit circus that may ruin the memory of poor Alfie.

Rest in peace when you pass little Alfie.

Sad your some how trying to link this to guns. Has nothing to do with guns the reason this shocks Americans is because we don't believe the right to determine whats best for us belongs to the state. This is a family decision and a state stepping in to decide what should be a family decision is wrong. Just shows me the UK is well on the road to communism. Good luck with that journey

I didn't link it to guns, some American folk did when they believed that the 4th allowed them to storm the hospital and take their child by gun point.

Sad on you for not researching the fact, I have no issues with your gun law.

What you people do not seem to understand is that there becomes a point where the parents become a danger to a vulnerable child.

Just like a child being taken into custody because of abusive parents, in this case, the parents are trying to make emotional decisions that are not in the benefit of their child. At that point the law steps in.

The response of some here, it is completely the same as saying Fritzl has the right to keep his daughter in bondage in his cellar because he is the parent.

Being a sperm and egg donar does not give you the right to be a # parent despite of your mind bramble.

So called "Health tourists" that are foreigners who come to the UK and then get medical treatment for free, is projected to cost the UK economy $2.7 billion per year. And people think that the UK cares about one baby costing money?

There have been cases in the UK were people have fought for the right to DIE and been rejected and had to go to other countries that allow euthanasia.

It sickened me about the Nazi pug fiasco, but I'm glad it happened because now that guy is appealing and has already $200,000 to donated to him by hundreds of people so he can fight this case and bring it further to get rid of these hate speech laws.

It also sickened me that time when an American was jailed in the United States for collecting rain water. Freedom comes in more than one form.

a reply to: Debunkology

Good call mate, very well put

The OP isn't american. And this is an american site. What this thread really is, is a pathetic attempt to drive discord between the United States and the UK.

My mother had a stroke and was tsken to IR. They told my dad she may have a chance if they drilled her skull. So they did. And when her insurance ran out they moved her to another ward. When that insurance ran out they moved her to hospice. They would have kept her there til that insurance ran out except we demanded they pulled her life support. They refused to show us the brain scans to see if there was a sleep pattern. She was basicslly bled dry of unsurance money and discarded. This was west virginia.....and a catholic hospital to boot. So which is worse? I would certainly say euthanizing a child that will never wake up is far more kind than using one to insure a bunch of fat, inbred, hillbillies.
I swear a bunch of people on here should have their oxygen levels checked.

a reply to: Forensick

www.express.co.uk...

A statement issued by Chief Inspector Chris Gibson said: “Merseyside Police has been made aware of a number of social media posts which have been made with reference to Alder Hey Hospital and the ongoing situation involving Alfie Evans. “I would like to make people aware that these posts are being monitored and remind social media users that any offences including malicious communications and threatening behaviour will be investigated and where necessary will be acted upon.”

This is what I had heard about.
The "malicious communications and threatening behavior" is pretty spooky. Is he referring to actual threats or are they shutting down discussion of this issue?

originally posted by: C0bzz
The OP isn't american. And this is an american site. What this thread really is, is a pathetic attempt to drive discord between the United States and the UK.

This is exactly why he kind of comment that makes discussions impossible

So many people resort to defending their country if someone has any opinion of something in it they don’t care for

I assume every single one of you making claims like this will never post on anything that happens outside of your country

Oh that’s right you will, because you are a bunch of hypocrites