The clergy is not the way to God. God is more powerful than we can imagine. We shouldn't insult God in this way. For God would like us to know that his reach knows no bounds. We should know that God is right there when we need God. If we go to the church or to any other to find God then we only tell God that his/her reach is not within our range.

God wants more of us than that. He wants us to work for him. He doesn't want others to work for us in order to work for him. Grinder is right, there should be no middle man. Did the prophet Abraham have a middle man???

No I don't think so.


You See???

I like the sentiment in this post, but I could not say it to a woman whether she was on her knees or not.

To me this is very real each of us are born with the calling. The question becomes in what way it is best for us as individuals to to represent that calling in our lives.

I would like to agree because it makes perfect sence in a logical persepctive, but without the middle man, the unity between humans and humans is broken.

I know of a whole town who is united under a pastor and is one of the best towns (although only has 5000 people) I've ever encountered.

But you have a valid point, and right now I am in the middle trying to agree or not because I believe in God but don't go to church.

Consider then that you may have revealed the true purpose of the clergy; to facilitate the translation of God's love between men, not the intermediary between God and man.

I agree with the sentiment of this thread completely. And it doesn't bother me that my sex is implied to be included...which is what I have decided it implies

It reminds me a movie called "stigmata"or something like that, is any one here remind that movie too ?

[Edited on 3-7-2003 by Salem]

I imagine that my time machine DID work after all and that I am back in 1517 Germany. Geez, what revolutionary ideas... never heard them before!

That fact does not negate that the point being made apparently needs to be REMADE. And I'm all for REMAKING it.

Im not sure if i would want a women in my company to be off her knees.
But still, i agree in a sense.
But i still look for the very few spiritual leaders in my life to help me.
Deep

Alright, so you go off and try to find your relationship to the divine on your own. What if you find nothing? Would you accept that, or try to create something that's comforting to you, but which you know is false? This thread seems to be saying that you have to be honest and independent in your search for religious truth... so, would you lower that intellectual standard if you couldn't find something better than what the 'middlemen' had given you? The basic question is: What are you after, God, or your own religion?

Originally posted by Valhall
Consider then that you may have revealed the true purpose of the clergy; to facilitate the translation of God's love between men, not the intermediary between God and man.

I agree with the sentiment of this thread completely. And it doesn't bother me that my sex is implied to be included...which is what I have decided it implies

Valhall, you make a good point but I also see a flaw in it. That being "to facilitate the translation of G-d's love between men." We all now that the Bible has been changed and transalated so many times that is not it possible that the real meanings have been lost? On top of that problem, now we have another person (ie: clergy, etc.) further giving his/her translation. Reminds me of a guy who watched a boy riding a bike and then see's him fall. He tells a friend who tells a friend, etc., etc., etc.......when you get to the last guy, the story was the boy was riding his bike and was hit by a bus. I hope you understand what I am saying. The more something is translated, the more chance of error being introduced.

regards
seekerof

With respect to capacity men and women are virtually the same while the bodies are different, it is more related to function that to capacity.

Men actually have a lower threshold for pain than women one of the reasons we are seeing them more often in the battlefield.

I feel that spiritual leaders are important but if one starts making demands be careful.

If you notice Valhall, Civilizations have been brought together by religion in every single sense until the forming of Germany in 1867 (not sure of presise date).

Valhall, I do agree that God is in the heart and all about faith, but who do you think came up with that Idea. Youre basicly stating what the Calvinist have said and Lutherans.

I do agree, but without the clergy, although many were corrupt until their power was taken away, there would be no trace of the bible or the old and new testament. They rewrote it for thousands of years. If it not for them, we might be believing in Golden animals and eagles as Gods.

Although the Roman Catholic religion was corrupt for a long time, it united humanity under a single banner of trust and unity.

You may find God to be in an individual person, but as the United States saying goes, "UNITED WE STAND, DEVIDED WE FALL"

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
Alright, so you go off and try to find your relationship to the divine on your own. What if you find nothing? Would you accept that, or try to create something that's comforting to you, but which you know is false? This thread seems to be saying that you have to be honest and independent in your search for religious truth... so, would you lower that intellectual standard if you couldn't find something better than what the 'middlemen' had given you? The basic question is: What are you after, God, or your own religion?

I think each of us, being individuals and prone to different views, ideas, opinions, and beliefs, will ultimately go after that thing that best suits our views, ideas, opinions, and beliefs, as individuals. I think what separates Man from everything is that man has the ability to conceive of a Higher Being, a G-d, or a Higher Thought, etc. Man---you and I--- have and will at one time or another in one's lifetime, will have thought of a Higher Presence, etc.

It is an enduring quality of Man; of each of us. But with it, comes questions that beg answering; with it comes controversy; with it comes separation; with it comes ridicule; with it comes doubt; with it comes an ever ending journey of seeking.

regards
seekerof

There is no governor anywhere -
You are all absolutely free -

You have as much right as they do to a personal dialog with God

That what a Christian is supposed to do - develope a personal relationship with God. The original Christian Church (before say around 200 CE) was primarily a place to go to have fellowship with other Christians and where God could be worshiped in a group (sure made the hymns sound better). Also there was a teaching which would give one a better insight of God. The minister (or elder) was there to help you develope this relationship with God. The Church was not intended to be the alpha and the omega of a person's relationship with God; it was intended to be an aid in that person developing a relationship with God. Also organized churches have some advantages such as being able to create ministries such as homeless shelters and hospitals. If the people alow that man standing at the pulpit to define their relationship with God, then it is as much their fault as it is his.

I think if we just stayed clear on the words each of us speak, it would lead to less consternation.

I do not believe that a human intermediary is required in order for me to interpret the word of God, or to have a relationship with Him. I cannot state it any clearer than that.

I did NOT say, that we should all go off and find what feels good, nor will I ever say that.

I DO believe that the original responsibilities of the clergy (in the UNorganized days of christianity) was to build the fellowship between MEN - not to intercede between men and God.

I believe they still have this place in spiritual lives of men.

I believe the clergy positions have been bastardized and abused in every segment of the christian religion. But there are good clergy out there as well, who take to heart that "ministering" means to "minister to the needs" of the fellowship.

in my own beliefs i would have to dissagree,
God has set forth instructions to respect elders, clergy, and law enforcement. respect of course being a two way street.

corrupt officials are to be delt with, respectful leaders, well, utilize them.

That I feel is an important issue this being the corruption..

Its a lot easier to identify a bad cop than a bad member of clergy and a lot of it has to do with the power implied by the position.

Spiritual leaders are relevant as long as that is all they do, lead one in developing knowledge of a system of faith or systems of faith and the Spiritual development that applies.

When the day comes that something beyond that is implied, or an expectation is made. Which is not within the confines of a developmental training in respect to
a faith, its time to stop for a moment and realize that you are talking to a human being.