Beirut blast kills al-Hariri

great research post HeirToBokassa!

Originally posted by Souljah
great research post HeirToBokassa!

Thanks Souljah! Great coverage and thanks for treating the speculation with caution.

Ok now that we're done figuring out that the bomb could have been just about anything. Thanks HeirToBokassa!

What do we think the reason for killing Al Hariri was? And who do we think is responsible?

Could it be a covert operation by US/Isreali personell, to get the US into a war with Syria as well?

The administraion is already dead set that the WMD's were sent to Syria.

WMD in Syria

Russia helped hide WMD in Syria

What do you think?

Phae

Sorry Heir, even though it's quite apparent that you do excellent research to justify your claims. Your posting links to stories that provide no total view of the craters, only desripitions by reporters with pictures of the innocent being carried away. And to rebuke my Oklahoma City crater question, you use a conspiracy website to prove your claim. Very weak! However, you did make me think of something. I'm not looking to justify my thoughts by linking stories that are second hand accounts with no visual proof and are the result of overexcited reporters looking to make a big career move. I'm looking for photos, hard proof, and this is were you came in. In my looking for OC crater photo, the best one was at the place I mentioned previously, however I did not take into account the possiblity that the rubble filled in the crater. However, that does not sway me from the thought that this was not a car bomb, but a missile. And what is a micronuke? Your joking right? A micronuke

There is a problem with this story, and it's not Syria.

The problem is that a convoy of heavily armored mercedes' were tossed around and crumpled like children's toys. Conventional weapons are limited in their power, they don't expand fast enough during the detonation phase to do the kind of damage we're seeing.

There was a MUSHROOM cloud above the city afterwards. Normal explosives leave dirty black clouds, mostly soot. Military explosives reveal themselves by the fast detonation envelope, typified by clouds made mostly of water vapor (white). If this wasn't air dropped munitions, it was a nuclear device.

To those who believe Micro Nukes don't exist, I have one word for you; Dimona. Micro nukes have been produced in signifigant numbers, by at least 4 nations. Backpack nukes were developed by the American Armed Forces for use by demolitions divers. The same is true of Russia. There is plenty of REAL evidence for the existence of micronized nuclear devices. Do the research and you will see.

Syria stands to lose the most from this situation, though they do stand to gain something as well. US and Israel have nothing to lose from a bomb going off in Lebanon. I'm not saying I know who the culprit is, I'm just saying nobody here does either, and most of us probably never will.

Those who think Syria has been opressing Lebanon, you are misinformed. Syria saved Lebanon from being used as a Mistravim training ground, and have protected the Lebanese from some of the most horrific abuse imaginable. Lebanon owes a lot to Syria, and I don't think this bomb blast will change that.

The politician in question was only a third of the equation when it comes to Lebanese foreign policy. Their political process insulates itself against graft and misuse of power by separating powers between religious groups. The mandate of Lebanese government is that one member of each religious group must be represented in the halls of government, and none may be diqualified from government because of religion. If you're curious as to the way the Lebanese government works, there are hundreds of sources of information that will educate you.

Given the fact that this assasination was upsetting to all those who live in Lebanon, and the likely culprit is only a stones throw away, Lebanon may attack Israel in retaliation, backed by Syrian troops, with the goal of liberating Palestine from Yisraeli control. We'll just have to wait and see.

I know one thing, it's only a matter of time before the real terrorists abandon the countries they've hijacked. Then we'll be left to pick up the pieces, just like Lebanon.

Also, keep in mind, this isn't the first attack on Beirut attributed to Yisrael. The Beirut Bombings years ago, of the military barracks, were widely attributed to both Yisraeli and Syrian interests by those on either side. This will likely be another case where the blame game gets played, and the real culprit will remain many-faced in the eyes of history.

All I have to say, in closing; remember the mushroom cloud!

Originally posted by QuietRenegade
Your posting links to stories that provide no total view of the craters, only desripitions by reporters with pictures of the innocent being carried away.

Your problem, QuietRenegade, is that you dismiss any and all first-hand accounts in favour of your own unsupported opinions. There is a body of knowledge available that establishes how large car bomb craters can be. You reject that without providing your own evidence. It is clear that you are only believing what you choose to believe rather than making a rational analysis.

And to rebuke my Oklahoma City crater question, you use a conspiracy website to prove your claim. Very weak!

My point was to illustrate the concensus across the spectrum of theories on what the actual crater size was. If you prefer something less "weak", by all means:


A massive car bomb explodes outside the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, ripping away the north face of the nine-story structure. One hundred and sixty-eight people are killed, including several children in the building's second-floor day care center. The bomb, made of ammonium nitrate and fuel oil, leaves a crater 20 feet wide and eight feet deep.

www.cnn.com...

The blast destroyed one-third of the building from roof to ground, leaving a crater eight feet deep, and 30 feet wide

www.drj.com...

So what's your excuse now?


[edit on 16-2-2005 by HeirToBokassa]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The problem is that a convoy of heavily armored mercedes' were tossed around and crumpled like children's toys.

Here's a pic of an armored car damaged from a car bomb in Bogota, and this car did not take a direct hit.

www.securitydriver.com...


"A roadside bomb killed two British civilians traveling in an armored car..."

www.sptimes.com...

Armored cars are not indestructible. Think about how much of the road and ground the Hariri explosive tore out. That's a powerful explosive that can't be compared to a round from an automatic rifle.

Conventional weapons are limited in their power, they don't expand fast enough during the detonation phase to do the

kind of damage we're seeing.

The bottom pic here shows what an IED can do to a Bradley armored vehicle.

www.chinadaily.com.cn...

From the links I provided, it is seen that conventional explosives can do a lot of damage.

There was a MUSHROOM cloud above the city afterwards.

Source?

Google news search for Hariri returns 56000 results. Many of these primary results have related articles (the first has 3959 related articles), so the actual number is much higher.

Google news search for [Hariri "Mushroom cloud"] or even [Hariri mushroom] returns 0 results.

There is plenty of REAL evidence for the existence of micronized nuclear devices. Do the research and you will see.

The argument against the Hariri explosive having been a nuclear weapon does not rely on denying the existence of small

nuclear weapons.

From the tragedies of Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center to the first act of nuclear terrorism requires but one small step. Suppose that, instead of mini-vans filled with hundreds of pounds of the crude explosives used in Oklahoma City and New York, terrorists had acquired a suitcase carrying a grapefruitsized 100 pounds of highly enriched uranium. Assuming a simple, well-known design, a weapon fashioned from this material would produce a nuclear blast equivalent to 10,000 to 20,000 tons of TNT. Under normal conditions, this would devastate a three-square-mile urban area. Most of the people of Oklahoma City would have disappeared. In the case of New York, the tip of Manhattan, including all of the Wall Street financial district, would have been destroyed.
US Senator Richard Lugar
August 1995
www.ippnw.org...

Syria stands to lose the most from this situation,

Syria is the party that directly benefits from the assassination. Hariri was planning to camaign on a "Syria out" ticket. To remove an eminent personality that could rally Lebanese popular opinion against Syria's occupation is a greater benefit than the supposed costs of negative PR.

Those who think Syria has been opressing Lebanon, you are misinformed. Syria saved Lebanon from being used as a Mistravim training ground, and have protected the Lebanese from some of the most horrific abuse imaginable. Lebanon owes a

lot to Syria, and I don't think this bomb blast will change that.

Let the Lebanese people decide if they want their national affairs dictated by a foreign country.

The politician in question was only a third of the equation when it comes to Lebanese foreign policy...

He was not a third of the threat to Syria.

Lebanon may attack Israel in retaliation

Again, let the Lebanese people decide if they will continue to be fooled by using Israel as a scapegoat. Israel no longer occupies the border region of Lebanon. Syria continues to dictate the affairs of the entire nation. Lebanese people know this.

remember the mushroom cloud!

Again: source? No results were found using google news of a mushroom cloud observance at the Hariri bombing.

[edit on 16-2-2005 by HeirToBokassa]

Joe Vialls responds on cue - with mushroom cloud (admittedly a psylocibin formation) and all
"A senior official at [the] Syrian information ministry condemned the assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri on Monday, saying, 'all over Syria the people are furious and angry over this criminal act and mad at its perpetrators.'
The Ministry spokesman continued, "Syria continues its firm support for Lebanon, especially in such a tense situation in which enemies are determined to destabilize Lebanon's tranquility and security, but, God-willing, they will never succeed" ..."by killing the Lebanese political leaders, the enemies of Lebanon and Syria are trying to restore coarseness in Lebanon again".

www.vialls.com...

[edit on 16-2-2005 by dh]

Originally posted by dh
(admittedly a psylocibin formation)

Very funny. Psilocybin could very well have been responsible for anyone mistaking this for a mushroom cloud:

Well I can see the humor in that instance - that's why I put it in
Still, there are some serious assays here
ps an edited afterthought - it's a bit monumental for a car bomb, whatever its shape

[edit on 16-2-2005 by dh]

Edited because you added the picture. That's a mushroom cloud being blown in the wind. That photo was taken a little while after the explosion, and you'll notice the base of the mushroom cloud is blacker, more soot filled, probably from the burning fuel of the car targetted.

That photo was taken at a distance, and clearly shows the initial explosion produced a spherical white puff, which of course is the water vapor. You're saying because the 'stem' is blowing in the wind, it's not a mushroom cloud? If you think the picture is a fake, prove it. I'm not on my computer because my monitor blew out, so I can't analyze the image myself, I'm using a stock laptop from a friend. I'm sure someone else can, and whenever I regain functionality on my rig (poor blind bastard) I'll check the thing myself. Otherwise, admit we're looking at a small white mushroom cloud, and add it to the file containing similar pictures of similar clouds hanging over many other cities and countries recently. The clouds we are seeing are identical to the clouds that once hovered over New Mexico, following large, nuclear tests.

Heir
None of the links you posted showed the kind of damage we saw in Beirut. Your links showed a car with front end damage, and one picture of a Bradley on fire. The cars in Beirut were on fire, admittedly, but they were also torn to shreds and twisted into little black pretzels. That's an accomplishment when it comes to an armored Mercedes. I'll say again, conventional explosives lack the blast velocity to demolish cars like that. The IED we're seeing in Iraq damage by shrapnel, not crushing force. They don't twist the tanks all up, they don't send humvees into orbit, they perforate the chintzy armor with nails and scrap metal, and set fires from the heat wave. The pictures out of Beirut look more like Bali than anything.

Your claim that lots of car bombs and suicide bombs leave craters is simply erroneous. That is just one of many lies that has become a defacto truth by virtue of its repetition. You have shrugged off the Omagh bombing, but that is an excellent example. That bomb was the largest conventional explosive ever detonated by a terrorist organization. It didn't leave a dent in the freakin' road! Blast pressures seek to escape up, because that's the fastest and most efficient way for them to expand, think 'hot air rises.'

If someone were to put an enormous shaped charge on the roadway, it would produce a similar effect to the one we're seeing, using the roadbed as shrapnel. I'm not saying conventional explosives can't do the damage, I'm saying you'd need a LOT of them, and they would have to be deployed in a very specific way, and it would be patently obvious to observers. Likely the bomb was underground, in the sewer. It's pretty hard to imagine the tons of explosives necessary just chilling in the sewers. More likely, a coffee cup sized nuclear device in between the sewer and the street.

I believe the Oklahoma bombing is a similarly bad example, because it was probably blown up from the inside, maybe even with a micro nuke. I've seen the original FBI recreation of the bomb blast, and oops, it sucked! It couldn't even tip the truck that carried it, nevermind half a building. They redid the footage with more explosives and released it widely. They used three times the explosives he was purported to have used, and still only caused a big black poof preceded by a mildly impressive orange flame. I seem to remember a big white cloud over Oklahoma that day, but maybe I'm just ignorant.

I'm sure that people are set in their beliefs, and sure that YOUR leaders would never lie to YOU so blatantly. They told you, on television, that sometimes it was necessary to lie, and still you don't believe it. They smirk on camera and hide away in underground fortresses while we get sick and die in record numbers. Put your faith in them if you will, I keep faith in myself and suggest all others do the same. You not taking my suggestion will not hurt me, but it will hurt the overall health of this country, so it pains me somewhat. In the end though, every man is responsible for his own future.

Keep in mind, Syria was invited. They have said multiple times, all the Lebanese have to do is ask nicely, and Syrian troops will withdraw. The government has allowed the Syrian troops to stay because they increase security and do not abuse the populace (like American troops have a habit of doing). There has been a relative period of quiet in that part of the globe, largely because of the Syrian military.

You're damn right let the Lebanese people decide. They've always had the capability, they still do. What pisses me off is when foreign powers go around blowing stuff up and murdering straight politicians to incite anger at a third party. That's messing with their groove, the precise thing you're yelling at me for!

Hariri wanted Syria out, he has for a while now. That's fine with me, and it's fine with Syria. If the Lebanese people had wanted Syria out, they would have left a long time ago. Let them make their decisions, absolutely. Syria will abide with whatever decision is made. I don't think the Syrians will be asked to leave, despite the efforts of the media to lay the blame at their feet. I think most of the world has a healthy distrust of the media, and simply ask, in every situation, who has something to gain?

Syria gains nothing by hanging out in Lebanon. Those troops would be better served at home, protecting Syria from an eventual US invasion. I don't know where this will lead, but I'm certainly not following the OPINIONS of the media, the US Government, or the American owned Lebanese politicians. If you're trying to appear objective, at least wait for EVIDENCE before coming to such inflamatory conclusions. There is no evidence Syria did anything, but already most people are jumping on the "let's get Syria" bandwagon.

This is what I have to say about your crusade.

Bad men spoil the east
say the Warlords in the west
I'm making popcorn



[edit on 16-2-2005 by WyrdeOne]

Hmm - and yes you're right Wyrde One. How eloquently you set out the deal. Wish I could do the same
Thanx

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Your links showed a car with front end damage

And that car did not sustain a direct hit from the bomb.

and one picture of a Bradley on fire.

That isn't just a fire there, that Bradley is gutted.

The cars in Beirut were on fire, admittedly, but they were also torn to shreds and twisted into little black pretzels.

That's an exaggeration. Here's a pic of cars from the convoys:



The fire damage is extensive, but little twisting and no shredding. Do you retract your grossly exaggerated statement?

That's an accomplishment when it comes to an armored Mercedes.

Yes, it's an accomplishment. No, it isn't mind-blowing.

• Can you tell me what the armor ratings were for the cars in the motorcade? Thought not.
• Can you tell me how much of the damage was sustained from the undersides of the vehicles due to reflection of the blast impact from the road, which was totalled as any observer can see? Thought not.
• Do typical armored Mercedes cars have significant protection of their undersides? Thought not.

Your claim that lots of car bombs and suicide bombs leave craters is simply erroneous.

Uh check out the many links I provided and get back to me on what is "simply erroneous."

www.chinadaily.com.cn...
www.masnet.org...
www.eurasianet.org...
www.cnn.com...
www.chinadaily.com.cn...
www.biohazardnews.net...

tvnz.co.nz...=html
www.findarticles.com...
news.bbc.co.uk...
english.people.com.cn...
www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2003/08/30/wirq30.xml
www.cbsnews.com...
news.bbc.co.uk...
www.msnbc.msn.com...

You have shrugged off the Omagh bombing, but that is an excellent example. That bomb was the largest conventional explosive ever detonated by a terrorist organization. It didn't leave a dent in the freakin' road!

1) Again, you ignore the impact of factors like bomb design, road structure and ground composition. Do you think the Lebanese road came close to the standards for roads in the UK?

2) It didn't leave a dent in the freakin' road! ??? Let's see about that

New tarmac on a patch of road marked the spot of the crater blasted by the force of the bomb, and from which a number of bodies were recovered.

news.bbc.co.uk...

So will you retract your false statement?

I believe the Oklahoma bombing is a similarly bad example, because it was probably blown up from the inside, maybe even with a micro nuke.

Again, faced with my mountain of evidence this is one approach - to attribute case after case to "micronukes." The micronuke crutch gets weaker and weaker the more it is relied on. Were car bomb craters in 3rd world countries caused by micronukes? One example of many was the Jakarta event I referenced.

They used three times the explosives he was purported to have used, the diesel and nitrate, and they caused a big black poof preceded with a mildly impressive orange flame.

Give that much explosives to many an ATSer and they'll produce more than a "mildly impressive orange flame" for you. This is exaggerated bs.

I'm sure that people are set in their beliefs

Right. It's not like I actually provide evidence or anything

Keep in mind, Syria was invited. They have said multiple times, all the Lebanese have to do is ask nicely, and Syrian troops will withdraw. The government has allowed the Syrian troops to stay because they increase security. There has been a relative period of quiet in that part of the globe, largely because of the Syrian military.

Wow. Just wow. It amuses me to no end that those who are the fiercest critics of some occupation can be such stalward defenders of others.

You're damn right let the Lebanese people decide. They've always had the capability, they still do. What pisses me off is when foreign powers go around blowing stuff up and murdering straight politicians to incite anger at a third party.

Again, ignoring the direct interest of Syria in eliminating Hariri in favour of convoluted explanations that portray Syria as the victim of "bad PR" are just laughable. The obvious imbalance is in the impact of the elimination of a eminent national politician campaigning on a "Syria Out" ticket vs. the impact of the bad PR for a nation (Syria) which is already recognized as autocratic. Please.

Hariri wanted Syria out, he has for a while now. That's fine with me, and it's fine with Syria.

Again, I point out the timing issue:



Not that it needs to be pointed out again, except that it's being purposely ignored.

Let them make their decisions, absolutely.

Your trivialization of the resentment the Lebanese feel toward their Syrian occupiers is myopic.

Syria gains nothing by hanging out in Lebanon.

That is ludicrous. Then why are they there? The last excuse for Syria to be in Lebanon was Israel's occupation of a border region. This evaporated when Israel abandoned its posts in Lebanon. Syria continues to occupy not a border region, but the entire country. Their benefit is in controlling the government of Lebanon and using Lebanon as strategic depth (much as Pakistan used Taliban-era Afghanistan) at the expense of the civil liberties and political rights of the Lebanese.

If you're trying to appear objective, at least wait for EVIDENCE before coming to such inflamatory conclusions.

My posts have been in response to irresponsible claims of "knowing" that a missile or micronuke was responsible. If you're trying to appear objective, you would advise those who push these claims to "wait for EVIDENCE."

No evidence will ever be seen
The remains of the Murrah buildig were pushed into a guarded landfill, the wtc was swept away to China and other places, the Bali resort was dumped in the Indian Ocean - all with indecent haste
The official story for all events dismisses alternative explanations so they're not investigated from those hypotheses
So we're left to speculate and know how these events occur
Knowingness is a great tool

That Bradley, if it is a Bradley, is not gutted. It's on fire, yes, but it's not gutted. Also, there is no indication on the page you pulled the pic from, that the pic was of a Bradley. The picture shown a little farther down the page is a Bradley, the website states that. Why aren't you posting that pic?

The cars were most likely rated a 6 on the European scale, which means they had signifigant protection from bullets, RPGs, road side bombs, and attack from below. Those cars are able to roll over a land mine without allowing shrapnel into the cab. Those cars can take a conventional bomb 10 feet away and still have their windows intact, if a little soot coated. Most of the cars mercedes sells to foreign diplomats are either 4 or 6 on the protection scale. Aftermarket suppliers sometimes claim a car to be a 6, when actually it's a 2, but I doubt that was the case here. I don't think a lightning rod like Hariri would skimp when it comes to protection.

Look at the car in the background iof the picture from Beirut. You mean to tell me that car isn't twisted?

Jakarta was a micronized nuke, yes.

You provided no pictures of Omagh, I've seen them all. There was no crater. If you don't have the pictures, do a search and find them. There was no crater. Repeat after me..

Look at the crater in Bali. Do you presume to tell me that crater was caused by a retarded motorcycle mechanic who didn't even know you can't stir jagged crystals into black powder? If he was a bomber, he would have killed himself during the mixing process he so convincingly demonstrated before a courtroom.

The road construction is solid in Lebanon. They're not hotrodding with donkeys down a dirt strip. They're a civilized resort-nation that's been prosperous for long enough to learn to build roads.

If the Lebanese people want Syria out, I guarantee that Syria will leave. However..
Just because a bunch of radicals show up with signs, doesn't mean the whole country feels that way. Look at the example of America. Would you throw President Bush out of office and make all neocons leave the country because there were protesters during his inauguration?

There will always be a fringe. Syria was not responsible for the massacres, that's just insane. Why would they do that? What possible motive could they have had? Sometimes you people and your disinformation..it's a wonder politicians can even believe themselves.

You think Syria would overstay its welcome and risk the ire of the people just to put some distance between Syria and Israel? Doubtful. That was once the case, but I don't think Syria is too worried about the Yisraeli war machine now..it's about to run out of gas.

I don't think any sovereign nation should be invaded and held by another, but it happens and only the strong survive. If Syria invaded Lebanon and is hurting the people of that nation, they should be driven out by the Lebanese. That has not happened. It was not our responsibility to save Iraq from Hussein.

Iran had a problem with their government, so they overthrew it. If the Lebanese people have a problem, they will solve it. If they don't, that's their problem, not mine, not yours, not ours.

The fact that America seems so willing to attempt to fix the problems of the world tells the world one thing; we perceive them as children, unable to make their own decisions. Come and try to fix my problems for me, see what it gets you. People just need to mind their own business and everything will work out fine.

I respect the dedication you bring to your arguments Heir, but I have to confess I think it rather foolish of you to dedicate so much of your energy to defending the international corporate goons who would, in an instant, put you or anyone else in an early grave for a meager profit. I've said it before, I'll say it again. You don't matter to them, why do they matter to you? Why spend your credibility protecting their honor? Why martyr yourself for a whore? It just doesn't make sense to me why anyone would even bother sticking up for a giant; giants can obviously take care of themselves (even when being harrassed by the tiny darts of internet dwelling pygmies such as myself).

Edited because I did overstate things earlier. The cars were not crumpled like childrens toys, sometimes I let my fiction writers tongue get away with my researchers brain. Also, I was incorrect if I said only air dropped munitions or a nuke could have caused the damage. I thought I qualified that by saying a shaped charge could do it. Also, what is your basis for saying Hariri's car was DIRECTLY targetted? All the news stories say the convoy was targetted, no reporter has claimed the bomb was under or in Hariri's car in particular, have they? Somebody supposedly climbed, on fire, out of the front window of one of the vehicles.

I stick by my opinion, that the event was probably a guided bomb/missle or a small nuclear payload. If other evidence, such as radiation analysis becomes available, audio/video documentation, I'll refine my statements accordingly. Right now, a small nuclear device fits nicely with the damage, mushroom cloud, capabilities of likely agressor (Israel), and delivery method [underground].

[edit on 16-2-2005 by WyrdeOne]

You ask whats my excuse? What is yours about being hostile and rude. Did I do something to you in a previous life since you know me so well! All I was looking at was the possibility that this was not a car bomb and that your links did not show me the overwhelming evidense of first hand photos of the scene that could be compared visually with the Beirut blast. Even more, I twice credited you about your research and pointing out something I had not thought of. Yet, you resort to the same slash and burn technics that make Karl Rove smile with envy. You do not want to even entertain the idea that this may not have car bomb or that Syria had nothing to do with it, you look for the information that justifies yours and the Bush administrations take on the situation and stand back and scream " See, I told you, its Syria! Lets get 'em!" Your lack of ability to see outside your NeoCon created world tells me more about you in just a few sentences than you'll ever know about me. Wyrde One, very good info and an articulate commentary on the situation!

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
That Bradley, if it is a Bradley,

The caption of the photo:

A U.S. Army tank passes by a burning U.S. Army Bradley armoured vehicle next to a junction on the airport highway in Baghdad, Iraq, Saturday, Oct. 23, 2004.

is not gutted. It's on fire, yes, but it's not gutted.

Okay, I guess I'll take your word over what the photograph shows.

Also, there is no indication on the page you pulled the pic from, that the pic was of a Bradley.

If a caption is not an indication of what a photograph shows, I don't know what is.

The picture shown a little farther down the page is a Bradley, the website states that. Why aren't you posting that pic?

The second photo is the one I posted...

The cars were most likely rated a 6 on the European scale

Really? How did you come across this information? I'm very skeptical, especially given the next statement you made: Aftermarket suppliers sometimes claim a car to be a 6, when actually it's a 2. I doubt that the car is a 2, but I don't see any reason for you to assume that the car was a 6, other than it would be convenient for your (tattered) argument.

Those cars are able to roll over a land mine without allowing shrapnel into the cab.

That is absolute rubbish. Armored cars are often advertised to be able to withstand landmines, but in reality even Israeli Merkava tanks can be susceptible to them.

Look at the car in the background iof the picture from Beirut. You mean to tell me that car isn't twisted?

Nope. It still looks like a car, not a pretzel. Sorry, smart guy. Also, you might have noticed that the door was opened. If it was twisted and shredded they wouldn't have been able to open it, would they? Before you claim that it was forced open by the bomb impact, I remind you that the explosion was from outside the cars.

Jakarta was a micronized nuke, yes.

I'm glad that you say this, because it puts your other claims right in perspective for the rational observer.

Repeat after me..

Yes, "Repeat after me" is about as effective as anything else you're posting. I posted an account of repair of the crater caused by the Omagh bomb. The repair would not have had to be done if there was no crater, in case you needed help with that. Notice that the account says that bodies were recovered from the crater. Where's your evidence? Show me pictures from reputable sources of the Omagh bombing with clear indication of a lack of craters. Or is it just more empty words from you?

Look at the crater in Bali. Do you presume to tell me that crater was caused by a retarded motorcycle mechanic who didn't even know you can't stir jagged crystals into black powder?

This comment makes no sense. Is it supposed to sound intelligent? Are you painting Jemaah Islamiyah as a group of retarded mechanics?

The road construction is solid in Lebanon. They're not hotrodding with donkeys down a dirt strip. They're a civilized resort-nation that's been prosperous for long enough to learn to build roads.

The country has been ravaged by civil war, is impoverished, and is not the resort country it once was. This is common knowledge.

There will always be a fringe. Syria was not responsible for the massacres, that's just insane.

Okay, if you say so. How wrong I was to doubt the altruism of the Syrian government

I respect the dedication you bring to your arguments Heir, but I have to confess I think it rather foolish of you to dedicate so much of your energy to defending the international corporate goons who would, in an instant, put you or anyone else in an early grave for a meager profit. I've said it before, I'll say it again. You don't matter to them, why do they matter to you?

I owe a lot to civilization -- your "corporate goons." Also, if you wish your arguments to be effective, you have to stop agreeing with any wild claim that fits your agenda. If you don't, then when some claims get disproven it makes people suspect all your arguments. If you truly believe that your worldview is for the most part accurate, and you want to effect change, you will heed my words.

I'm still waiting for a response to "Uh check out the many links I provided and get back to me on what is "simply erroneous." "

Heir
Of all those links you posted, there was not ONE picture of ONE crater. There was an awful lot of talk about craters though, but talk is cheap.

Remember what I said about a lie told often enough?

Jakarta is the exception, and one incident in Russia in the late 90's, 98 I believe. That incident in Russia is unknown to me, I've no knowledge of either the party line nor alternate theories, and we've already talked about Jakarta. I'll do some research and try to find out if that one in Russia was a nuke.

You don't have to take my word on anything I've said. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my nether regions, I'm using knowledge as the basis of my comments. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but my knowledge says that car bombs are incapable of causing craters because the blast wave has plenty of open air to move through. Underground explosions are another matter, and if you want to postulate that the bomb was a buried conventional device I would buy that, but a car bomb is a whole different story.

Is it known whether the bomb was underneath Hariri's car or on another vehicle? Did anyone conduct tests looking for Alpha radiation in the wake of the blast? Its not picked up by standard geiger counters, and it doesn't hang around nearly as long as other forms of fallout, but it is still dangerous. If anyone hears anything about results of tests from the crater, post them here. I'll be keeping my eyes open.

Edited for Heir: If you want pictures showing the craterless aftermath of Omagh, go to google images and type omagh. It's really that simple. There are at least a dozen pictures showing a rubble strewn street..no crater.

Armored cars rated a 6 CAN roll over land mines. Whether or not Israeli tanks can is irrelevant. I've seen footage of armored cars bouncing like they were on hydraulics, from a land mine detonation below, but the interior retained its rigidity and the dummy passengers were only a little worse for the wear. I've studied armor plating, both undercarriage and door panel, and I'm well versed in protective glass, and the limits thereof. I've seen RPG's bounce off of similar cars, seen them jump and keep rolling after land mines, so don't tell me it's rubbish. Have you ever worked in executive protection? I have.

[edit on 16-2-2005 by WyrdeOne]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Of all those links you posted, there was not ONE picture of ONE crater. There was an awful lot of talk about craters though, but talk is cheap.

Again, you are dismissing first person accounts from events around the world in favour of your intuition. That strikes me as a highly conceited and irrational decision. Your credibility might mean something to you but it doesn't mean a thing to me. Are you claiming that independent journalists around the world are engaged in a conspiracy to exagerate the effects of car bombs on roads? Do you not perceive how ridiculous you sound?

Remember what I said about a lie told often enough?

I remember a lot of rhetoric coming from you.

Jakarta is the exception, and one incident in Russia in the late 90's, 98 I believe. That incident in Russia is unknown to me, I've no knowledge of either the party line nor alternate theories, and we've already talked about Jakarta.

Where's your support for Jakarta being a micronuke? (I can't believe I even asked that, but for the record... I'm tired of reading your unsupported claims)

Mr. Vialls has talked about the micro nuke at the Iraqi U.N. Embassy, he also commented about the OKLAHOMA BOMBING which any person knowlagable abot the nwo knows that was an inside job www.vialls.com...