Beirut blast kills al-Hariri

Constable describes Omagh scene
news.bbc.co.uk...

I suggest you read this carefully. I wonder if I'm the only one who would trust a constable who was actually there (Omagh) saving people's lives over WyrdeOne the armchair explosives expert.

There is plenty of evidence that the explosion in Jakarta was not conventional, my suggestion to you is to look into it yourself. I've been down this road, and it leads nowhere, it's all pointless because you're going to perceive all evidence I provide as biased or made up. For the record though, the person who was supposedly in the lobby setting off the bomb..his head was found in a 5th floor room. A policeman also survived the blast, he was standing only a few feet away. His testimony is illuminating, no pun intended.

Just do yourself a favor, look at the photographic evidence from the bomb/s in question, read up on blast dynamics, explosive detonation envelopes, the relative strength of various explosives, mixing techniques, shattering power, the works. Take those numbers and apply them to the photographic evidence. It really is that simple. Don't let the people who write the news, or the people who pay their salaries, think for you. There is excellent photographic evidence available for Bali and Jakarta, about half a dozen internet searches should do the trick. Try some tier 3 search engines in addition to your beloved google, you may unconver a lot more.

Your increased aggresiveness must mean I hit a nerve. I wonder what it was that upset you so much..

Edited in response to your recent link. THERE WAS NO CRATER! That picture doesn't show a crater either. Try again. I don't care what constable whatshisname says, if I can buy an American Federal Judge for 50k how much does an Irish policeman cost? Show me a picture different than the dozens on the web (that show no crater) and you'll win the argument.

[edit on 16-2-2005 by WyrdeOne]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I've been down this road, and it leads nowhere, it's all pointless because you're going to perceive all evidence I provide as biased or made up.

That isn't an expression of confidence in your own evidence, is it?

Just do yourself a favor, look at the photographic evidence from the bomb/s in question, read up on blast dynamics, explosive detonation envelopes, the relative strength of various explosives, mixing techniques, shattering power, the works. Take those numbers and apply them to the photographic evidence. It really is that simple.

Sounds like that's supposed to impress people. I see through the bs, though. Post your blast dynamics findings here if you have any confidence in them.

Don't let the people who write the news, or the people who pay their salaries, think for you.

I don't. I just have a realistic understanding of what level of conspiracy is functionally possible.

Your increased aggresiveness must mean I hit a nerve. I wonder what it was that upset you so much..

Right... Keep telling yourself that. Your posts have gotten more and more vague, with promised evidence not showing up. Why is that?

I don't care what constable whatshisname says, if I can buy an American Federal Judge for 50k how much does an Irish policeman cost?

You don't care what anyone says. You have absolute trust in your intuition and refuse to look at evidence. You dismiss all first person accounts as invalid and favour your own divine intuition. You will make any unsubstantiated claim.

I'm going to get back to you shortly. I want to check with a mod about posting explosives information (fps, composition, use parameters), whether or not that's a violation of T&C. I suspect it is, but I will check.

Heir
All of the information I am about to post (except where otherwise noted) was gleaned over the course of many years from:
TM 31-200-1
TM 31-210
TM 9-1900
TM 9-1910
TM 9-1985-1
FM 5-25
FSTC 381-5012
Report EODS-65-3
Report 1815

First step, how does one make a crater? Well, how about a cratering charge? What's a cratering charge you ask? www.dtic.mil...

Digging a crater is more a function of high relative energy, rather than pure shattering power, which is the standard by which many an explosive is judged. Large quantities are necessary to produce cratering, and they must be sub-surface.

Check out this link for more information on combination borehole/cratering charges as realized by some air dropped munitions. www.vectorsite.net...

TNT has a detonation velocity of 6900 meters per second, and a relative effectiveness of 1; as it is the standard by which all other explosives are judged. C4 has a rating of 1.3 RE, plus or minus a bit, because it's velocity is about 8400 meters per second. Even the more exotic conventional explosives produce no more than about 1.5 million psi at the point of contact. That number decreases exponentially in direct proportion to the amount of 'empty' space around the charge.

There are primary and secondary high explosives. Primary are almost exclusively used for initiators, hence..primary. We're going to focus on secondary, the explosives initiated by the primary charge. Let's assume they used a very powerful high explosive with good shattering power; RDX. In our hypothetical instance, the terrorists are trying to blast a hole in the roadbed using a carbomb. Even with the most advanced RDX mixes, Average Peak Pressure (psi) is under 60 at 10 feet. The drop-off grows steeper as distance is increased. This is standard for all explosions, except nuclear, which produce almost uniform blast pressures in a sphere. www.dtic.mil...

Here's the bottom line; if you want to blow a hole in the road, you're going to have to dig a hole. Excavators and demolition experts will tell you, I'm telling you, if you want to use a conventional explosive cratering charge, you are going to have to make yourself a bore hole.

There are explosives that make boreholes, like the m3 shaped charge. They are used to create holes into which cratering charges, usually 30-40 pounds of nitramon, comp b, or pentalite in varying mixes, are dropped. -- If you're trying to build a road, and you need to blow a mountain out of the way, you could place sticks of dynamite by the cratefull at the base of the mountain, from now till the rapture, and succeed only in covering the base of the mountain with soot. The force from the explosions must be concentrated inside the medium being targetted, otherwise it will, as I've said before, lost all of its effigacy. -- The m3 was capable of putting a 7 inch diameter hole, 6-9 feet deep into concrete, and that was with only 30 lbs of comp b. After that, you can drop another 30-40 lbs of high explosive into the bore hole, and the resulting explosion will leave a large crater in most roads. This can even be accomplished with the pathetic ammonium nitrate, but only under one condition; the charge must be inside the roadbed.

Do an experiment to see this in action. If you live in a state where fireworks are legal, buy a package of black cats and get ready for some science!

Take one of the black cats, place it on the palm of your hand and light it. Keep your hand open while it explodes. It won't hurt, barely leave a mark, and maybe a little sting.
EDIT: Do NOT try setting off firecrackers in your closed hands.

Most explosives work by releasing a lot of gas very quickly; overpressure leading to dynamic air movement. The more confined the space into which the gas must escape, the greater the resulting pressure. If placed on top of the road, the gases from a car bomb have the ENTIRE SKY to escape into, drastically reducing the force brought to bear on the target. If you bury the same charge, it meets resistance to the intitial expansion, and builds up a great deal of pressure rapidly. The cheaper the explosive, the less capable it is in open air, generally. If Hariri's assassins used ANFO, they'd be lucky to create a bonfire on the road, nevermind a massive detonation.

Commercial dynamite expands anywhere between 4k and 23k fps. Most military explosives hover around the 20k fps mark, with some slightly higher (up to 28k and beyond in some cases), and mixes in general displaying the greatest, though still marginal, increases in power. If I had to guess what sort of explosive was used to assasinate Hariri, I would guess Amotal, Ammonal, or Dynamite. Amotal and Ammonal can be scavenged from artillery shells and other unexploded ordinance, they are both common in improvised munitions. Dynamite can be easily stolen from construction sites and the like. Ammonium nitrate might have been used, perhaps in combination with TNT for greater effect. In any of these cases, we're looking at somewhere between 3k and 30k fps for the explosion.

Most explosives come in 50lb cases, some come in 80lb cases, did they sling several hundred pounds of the stuff in his back seat and he just didn't notice? Doubtful. Did they bury it in the roadway, while crowds looked on suspiciously? Doubtful. Did they lug it down into the sewers and duct tape it to the manhole cover? C'mon.. The most likely scenario is a car packed with the stuff, ramming the convoy and initiating detonation. The car is above ground remember..

One of the advantages of nuclear weapons, especially micro-nuclear weapons, is the size to power ratio. Here is a list of some conventional explosives and their relative effectiveness.
www.fortliberty.org...

And here are the relevant calculations to make a crater. This link also contains valuable information on the ability of nuclear weapons to make craters.
www.globalsecurity.org...

No demo-man in his right mind would agree to try and make a crater using above ground conventional charges. The logistics hover somewhere between insane and impossible. If it was possible to make craters by placing boxes of explosives on the earth's surface, or in cars driving around, it would be a major let-down for those who have spent their entire career trying to overcome the problems inherent in demolitions.

More information on the explosions in N. Korea, and the resulting craters. The crater in the rail yards at least was seen from SPACE! 209.157.64.200...

INFO on ANFO, come to your own conclusions about Oklahoma.
www.antioffline.com...

"Identification of ANFO not based on scientific or technical grounds.." -- You don't say...
www.freerepublic.com...

Here are some pictures.
75lb cratering charge, sub-surface. 1st frame
web.umr.edu...

75lb cratering charge, sub-surface. 2nd frame
web.umr.edu...

Drilling bore holes in a cave wall
web.umr.edu...

Some more assorted information useful to you in making up your own mind.

www.wws.princeton.edu...

keith.aa.washington.edu...

bbs.keyhole.com...

www.cee.umd.edu...

www.inesap.org...

Enjoy your new found knowledge!

[edit on 17-2-2005 by WyrdeOne]

[edit on 18-2-2005 by Kano]

Suspects flew to Australia.

LEBANON is hunting six people who flew from Beirut for Australia, leaving traces of explosives on aircraft seats, hours after a powerful bomb killed former prime minister Rafiq Hariri.
"Six people left for Australia from Beirut airport a few hours after the attack and traces of TNT powder were recovered from the seats used by some of them," Justice Minister Adnan Addum said.

"These people have links with fundamentalist circles. I can't say more because of the demands of the investigation," he added.

One hitherto unknown Islamist group claimed it carried out Monday's bombing, saying it was in revenge for Mr Hariri's links with Saudi Arabia where security forces have killed members of extremist groups. It gave no proof of its involvement.

Link

Why am i thinking Mossad? And if they are Mossad, why is Australia the choice of destination?
New Zealand will be right onto this, as their intel' is great.

Sanc'.
edit: link

[edit on 18-2-2005 by sanctum]

This is probably coincedence, but weird anyway.

The bomb that killed former Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri was detonated in Martyrs' Square

And the has been an ongoing fight over development of the area.

Nothing can explain the martyrdom that the St George Hotel and marina has been subjected to, and the more disturbing is the total silence that was kept by all concerned, around this matter, as no one ever voiced the slightest objection to a flagrant murder of one of the most prestigious institutions of this Country.

Link

Sanc'.
edit: spelling

[edit on 18-2-2005 by sanctum]

Originally posted by sanctum
This is probably coincedence, but wierd anyway.

The bomb that killed former Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri was detonated in Martyrs' Square

just like coincidence in last weeks bomb blast in spain,
that went off in INFERNO convention center...
weird...

[edit on 18-2-2005 by Souljah]

Australian Federal Police probing Hariri bombing

But it would not confirm reports out of Lebanon that up to 12 Australian citizens had been sought in Australia over the bombing.

Lebanon's Justice Minister Adnan Addoum said authorities had contacted Interpol in Sydney over the departure from Beirut to Australia of 12 men - most bearded - on Monday, the day of the bombing that killed Hariri and 16 others.

Addoum said the 12 were among 14 men with Australian citizenship who tried to leave Lebanon, but two missed the flight for unknown reasons. Their whereabouts were unknown, he said.

Interpol had agreed to interrogate the 12 in relation to the killing, Addoum said, and said three had agreed to come forward.

Link

Interpol

10 cleared over Beiruit bomb

THE Australian Federal Police (AFP) said tonight it had cleared 10 men who were investigated as part of its inquiries into the Beirut bombing that killed former Lebanese prime minister Rafiq Hariri on Tuesday.
Lebanon's Justice Minister Adnan Addoum said today authorities had contacted Interpol in Sydney over the departure from Beirut to Australia of 12 men on Monday, the day of the bombing that killed Hariri and 16 others.

Mr Addoum said the 12 were among 14 men with Australian citizenship who tried to leave Lebanon,but two missed the flight for unknown reasons.

AFP spokesman Kirk Cunningham said tonight the AFP had conducted the investigations on behalf of Interpol.

edit: bold added
Link

but two missed the flight for unknown reasons

An old tactic, but a good one.

Sanc'.

Lebanese minister quits

LEBANON's Tourism Minister Farid al-Khazen has resigned amid mounting calls for the entire government to resign following the killing of former prime minister Rafiq Hariri.
Lebanon's anti-Syria opposition has accused the government and its political masters in Damascus of having a hand in the bomb blast that killed Hariri and 14 other people in Beirut on Monday.

Mr Khazen said in a statement his decision was "in line with my convictions and out of an obligation to the nation."

Link

Lebanese opposition declares intifada

Using fiery rhetoric Lebanese opposition figures have called for an independence uprising against Syria's presence in Lebanon.

"In response to the criminal and terrorist policy of the Lebanese and Syrian authorities, the Lebanese opposition declares the democratic and peaceful intifada [uprising] for independence," said leading opposition figure Samir Frangia after a meeting of leading Lebanese opposition figures.

"We demand the departure of the illegitimate regime," Frangia said, reading a final statement at Jumblatt's home

source:
english.aljazeera


it has started.
people can smell the momentum,
time for change in lebanon.
but its also a very dangerous and delicate time...

This is an interesting story that will probably disappear quickly, though the reverberations appear to be getting stronger.

Does anyone else think a Ukraine happened in Beirut? An engineered revolution, not unlike the ones that took place all over south and central america, and previously in the Middle East, plenty of times at the hands of various nations/interests.

I'm also wondering if perhaps Hariri, always the idealist, martyred himself for Lebanon. Maybe somebody had him martyred, without his prior knowledge. Or, maybe, just maybe, this really was just a badly conceived plan on the part of Syrian and Lebanese politcos..

I think there are still too many unanswered questions about the bombing. There is no way anybody can say for sure who killed the man, so why is everybody (news, politicians, civilians) talking like guilt is already clear. Has the concept of evidence completely left the equation? Why aren't we talking about evidence instead of political motive? I think the forensic evidence, should it ever come fully to light, would go a long way to answering how exactly this was possible, and who might have been in the best position to execute the attack.

I forgot where the flights were headed, but I'm pretty sure Australia and surrounding islands make good candidates for NWO life boats. They've got to have a place to run to if everything spills out and the people wake up from their stupor. I personally would pick Alaska, but most people would prefer a more tropical climate. Australia and Tasmania are about as remote as one could hope for.

Who is the Governor of Tasmania? Well, since Butler left with his briefcase full of cash, I guess that leaves the judge who mucked up the port arthur case to govern the fine people of Tasmania. I smell conspiracy, but apparently nobody else does otherwise we'd have heard the outcry a long time ago.

[edit on 20-2-2005 by WyrdeOne]

Does anyone else think a Ukraine happened in Beirut? An engineered revolution, not unlike the ones that took place all over south and central america, and previously in the Middle East, plenty of times at the hands of various nations/interests.

I also get the feeling that this was engineered. Just like you say the Ukrainian one was. However I don't believe Hariri did it to himself. It seems more like somebody with powerful connections with the west (considering the massive amount of media coverage, particularly CNN) concocted it with specific interest to create a 'revolution'.

My guess is its Mossad. With or without CIA knowledge. However it has to be said, CIA is an ace in this game - as they have done this countless times.

the "real truth" behind Al-Hariri assassination

i have found this article, that explains why does washington profit from assassination of Al-Hariri.
or one of the most probable choices for it.

To understand who assassinated Rafik al-Hariri we don’t need to look any further than the $1.5 billion US Embassy currently under construction in Baghdad. The new embassy, the largest of its kind in the world, will facilitate 1,800 employees and serve as the regional nerve center for American political and economic activity. What does this have to do with al Hariri?

t demonstrates that the US is establishing a massive command center for its future domination of the entire Middle East. This suggests that Lebanon must be entered into the family of client states who accept a subservient role to American military and economic power, and who willingly comply with the requirements of the regional constable, Israel.

Al Hariri’s assassination provides the raison d'être for severing ties with Syria and for transforming Lebanon into a US vassal. This conforms nicely with Israel’s ambition to surround itself with non-threatening states as well as affording access to the vital water resources of Lebanon’s Wazzani River. In other words, the murder of al Hariri has created some extremely fortunate opportunities for both Israel and the US; merging seamlessly with their overall objectives in the region.

This creates a dangerous new threat to the empire and violates the “three grand imperatives” of imperial strategy: “to prevent collusion and maintain dependence among the vassals, to keep tributaries pliant and protected, and to keep the barbarians from coming together.” (Zbigniew Brzezinski, The Grand Chessboard, p. 40) Alliances between the major players (India, Iran, Brazil, Venezuela, Russia, China and the EU) demonstrate that the “barbarians” are coming together more swiftly than imagined, creating a potential roadblock for Middle East consolidation. This explains why this risky gambit was put into play.

by Mike Whitney

source:
information.clearing.house

Good post Souljah, I love that bit about the barbarians coming together.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me my information was wrong.

So can anyone reasonably prove this was a car bomb?

The motive has to wait until the actual forensics are ironed out. Without more concrete information, making a determination is hard. There is nothing coming out of the country, in terms of forensics. I imagine it's all being analyzed internally to prevent evidenciary tampering or destruction. I hope they find out exactly what happened and can prove it.

Then again, if it could have been uncovered, the method probably wouldn't have been used. I think part of our problem here is that the human ability to attack has out-evolved the human ability to investigate and understand attacks. A few countries can bomb with impunity, and that's an obvious problem affecting the balance of the world.

I'm still waiting for someone to contradict my evidence. My strongest critic seems to have faded into the shadows since I smacked the books on the table...

I was afraid the mods wouldn't let me post some of that info. Thanks mods!
(I would have hated to lose the argument because my proof was too true!)

Who did it? Well car bombs in beirut seem to be fair game... wasnt it the CIA who admitted to blowing one up in the 80's? It was supposed to take out some cleric or other.. but whoops.. a whole load of civilains instead, which of course is NOT terrorism coz the CIA did it! I love these double standards!

Like I said carbombs in beirut seem to grow on trees, sadly,so could be anybody really.

recent reports say that the bomb is most likely to have been placed underground: the flare from the blast was bright (but still no micro-nuke :coolindicating the presence of sodium which could've come from the water originating from the waterways broken by the blast, and the crater is in the middle of the road so it isn't a parked car bomb.
there's another input that the bomb is a combination of TNT, C4 and napalm: the latter may be behind the numerous fires that began after the blast, and the huge air vacuum that resulted from the blast (a thermo-barric effect) breaking windows a mile and a half away and causing the immense pressure that caracterised the blast.
Moreover the bomb must have been mechanically triggered or wire-contonlled because the hariri motorcade had the latest jammers.
Finally the investigation is being delayed for political reasons by the pro-syrian governement only meaning that Syria was behind it... and if you search the net u'll find that it isn't the first political assassination in Lebanon with syrian intelligence behind it.

www.cnn.com...

The investigators might be coming from Switzerland, but the international investigators have so far been denied access. I don't blame the Lebanese Gvt./ Syrian Army for that, I'd much rather have some impartiality. It would be foolish to invite the evidence planting cop into your house.

This report finally confirms what I and others have been saying all along. Bloodthorn mentioned it, this article is confirmation. The blast was most likely underground, according to this article, but I believe air dropped munitions are still a possible culprit.

I think we are going to see some ruff times , soon but the US is putting pressure on syria for dimplomatic and law enforcement pursuits. Does anyone thing the announcement on the news in 15 mins about interesting developements will see the syrians calling of their pull out again. I think syria just pull back tighten security on their side of the border , heck put up a legal non israeli wal in syria if that would help.