Video shows police killing of Daniel Shaver in Mesa, Arizona (viewer discretion advised)

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

It is if the person is laying in front of a room and you have no idea if anybody is in that room or not. From a purely tactical standpoint, I don't see any way they could have gotten close enough to cover the door of the room and not be right next to Shaver while doing so.


That being said...."do exactly what I say....cross your legs at the ankles, put your hands straight up, and now crawl towards me" is not exactly the verbal commands I would use to accomplish that.

a reply to: TruthxIsxInxThexMist

he also moved his hand to go vbehind... why he did that, I guess we'll never know.

It's possible his shorts were falling off as he was crawling from what I read.

The incident report recounts that “the movement of Shaver’s right arm in the recording was a very similar motion to someone drawing a pistol from their waist band. Officer Brailsford rapidly fired five shots at Shaver and Shaver slumps to the ground on Portillo’s purse. Shaver’s underwear were clearly visible and it appeared his shorts had fallen partially down his legs at that point. Shaver’s motion was also consistent with attempting to pull his shorts up as they were falling off. No other purposes for this movement appear to be viable.”

Link

A detective investigating the shooting said while it may have looked as if Shaver were reaching for a gun, it also appeared that he was pulling up his loose-fitting basketball shorts that had fallen down when he was ordered to crawl.

The officers could have simply handcuffed Shaver while he was on the floor, the detective added.

L2

For one thing...i just woke up and wasnt linking pest control with pellet gun and hotel. Sorry.

Guess being in that trades you keep your tools with you. Yep, got it.

a reply to: Shamrock6


Fair enough.

After seeing the video what, if any, opinion do you have on his responsibility in regards this being more than a justified use of deadly force?

I know I'm gonna get laughs at this, but seriously I recommend the old PC game SWAT 3 to everyone. See how many unarmed people you shoot. In a simulation, where you're not even at risk. Police stations have invited civil rights leaders to use their high-tech simulators. All of them came away having a better appreciation for what cops face. Some reported things like not being able to remember how many rounds they fired, and some shot unarmed people. In a simulation.

Think how much easier it is to do in real life when you might be about to die.

ETA: If you live in a big city, ask your local PD if you can try their simulator.

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: Liquesence

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus


I would like someone in law enforcement to explain if having people crawl towards you is how you take someone into custody.

Yeah, I don't get that either. He was face down, legs crossed, arms out. It would seem they would approached and cuff him, unless they thought there was a potential threat inside the hotel room, which was just around the corner.

They didn't do that because they thought there might be other people in the room. If you go down the hall to cuff him you put yourself in danger.

Yeah, I said that in the comment to which you replied.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Liquesence
...unless they thought there was a potential threat inside the hotel room, which was just around the corner.

Then they should have called for backup.

The whole thing seems to have been self-perpetuated, the officer, in my opinion, escalated the scenario with his tactics.

Yes, he appears to have been itching to shoot. Also, it's reported his gun is engraved with "You're F*cked."

:/

A Mesa Police Department internal report found that the words “You’re f--ked” were inscribed on the on the dust cover of the AR-15 patrol rifle Philip “Mitch” Brailsford used to shoot 26-year-old Daniel Shaver

Link

The guy was completely in compliance, terrified, crying, confused, tipsy....Sad.

a reply to: notsure1

That is one of the most gut wrenching things I've ever seen.

There's a bunch of videos like this on YouTube:



Here's a decent article on the subject:

Shoot or don't shoot

It's not as simple as you keyboard warriors think.

originally posted by: face23785
I know I'm gonna get laughs at this, but seriously I recommend the old PC game SWAT 3 to everyone. See how many unarmed people you shoot. In a simulation, where you're not even at risk. Police stations have invited civil rights leaders to use their high-tech simulators. All of them came away having a better appreciation for what cops face. Some reported things like not being able to remember how many rounds they fired, and some shot unarmed people. In a simulation.

Think how much easier it is to do in real life when you might be about to die.

ETA: If you live in a big city, ask your local PD if you can try their simulator.

OMG bal bla bla The guy was lying face down on the ground complying to every order.

He was not a threat he was unarmed and crying for christs sake.

originally posted by: Liquesence

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: Liquesence

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus


I would like someone in law enforcement to explain if having people crawl towards you is how you take someone into custody.

Yeah, I don't get that either. He was face down, legs crossed, arms out. It would seem they would approached and cuff him, unless they thought there was a potential threat inside the hotel room, which was just around the corner.

They didn't do that because they thought there might be other people in the room. If you go down the hall to cuff him you put yourself in danger.

Yeah, I said that in the comment to which you replied.

You asked a question, I answered it. If you were certain your answer was correct, what were you asking? Don't get so defensive.

What I don't understand is, why they were arresting him in the first place?

Aren't you allowed to buy, possess and carry a gun in Arizonia without even being licensed?

Is that how it works in the land of the free? The cops are just allowed to roll up on ya and start barking orders when they don't even have any evidence that you've actually done anything illegal.

originally posted by: notsure1

originally posted by: face23785
I know I'm gonna get laughs at this, but seriously I recommend the old PC game SWAT 3 to everyone. See how many unarmed people you shoot. In a simulation, where you're not even at risk. Police stations have invited civil rights leaders to use their high-tech simulators. All of them came away having a better appreciation for what cops face. Some reported things like not being able to remember how many rounds they fired, and some shot unarmed people. In a simulation.

Think how much easier it is to do in real life when you might be about to die.

ETA: If you live in a big city, ask your local PD if you can try their simulator.

OMG bal bla bla The guy was lying face down on the ground complying to every order.

He was not a threat he was unarmed and crying for christs sake.

Obviously didn't watch the video. He put his hand behind his back right after they got done telling him if he did that again it would be considered a threat. Some thugs carry guns in their waistband at the small of their back. Watch the video, and do so with an open mind.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
What I don't understand is, why they were arresting him in the first place?

Aren't you allowed to buy, possess and carry a gun in Arizonia without even being licensed?

Is that how it works in the land of the free? The cops are just allowed to roll up on ya and start barking orders when they don't even have any evidence that you've actually done anything legal.

There were reports he was pointing a rifle out his window. You're ok with that?

originally posted by: notsure1

originally posted by: TruthxIsxInxThexMist
a reply to: notsure1

I think a bit more caution could of been used in this case. How bout a tazeer instead? The guy was doing as was asked, however he also moved his hand to go vbehind... why he did that, I guess we'll never know.

Because it is impossible to crawl with your hands in the air.

The female did on two knees.

But yeah, when I think "crawl" I think hands and knees. That's what crawl is.

Another wholly preventable tragedy which will change the lives of his family forever.

When are our armed officers going to be screened and trained properly (and, as a consequence, well compensated) for their crucial and hazardous positions? Not every person is qualified to serve as a LEO.

Thanks for the OP. Maybe one day the public will do more than just read the tragic stories from the news--what's the sense of knowing about these if we are never going to bring about any positive change?

originally posted by: Vasa Croe
a reply to: notsure1

That is really sad. Plenty of pest control folks carry pellet guns for work....

Whats sadder is some people become cops just to play god.

"Crawl before me and die you lowly earthen scum!"

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

In hindsight there's always things that could've been done differently. The biggest thing that stands out to me is the verbal commands. They're supposed to be as idiot-proof as possible. This wasn't even an instance that we sometimes see, where multiple officers are giving conflicting commands to one subject. It was just one officer giving # commands. Get down, kneel, get back down, kneel, crawl, you better fall on your face, etc. If we're going to push the notion of "hey just follow the commands and you'll be fine" then y'know...maybe the commands shouldn't suck? Brailsford was fired after the shooting investigation for being outside policy, which tells me his former agency didn't care for how he handled things.

On the theoretical level sure, I can see that the guy reached for his waistband after being told not to do exactly that. On the practical level, I think Brailsford's actions created the situation that unfolded and that's not something that's supposed to happen.

Was it a criminal act? I don't know. Bad shoot? In my opinion yea, it's a bad shoot. Criminal? I'm not sure I'd go that far. Negligent? Yea, I'd go that far.

a reply to: Shamrock6


I appreciate you candor Shammy.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


The thought is that if they're crawling towards You on hands/feet, they cannot hold a weapon because their hands would be on the ground.

Now I've been retired for 13 years now but I worked at one of the most up to date Ca. agency as far as training, laws etc. Multiple cops would allow one to search and cuff while being watched..