Hey Indrasweb: At least some of your information in the last examples, appears to be incorrect: The first case you referred to is Senator Franken's,
and I'm pretty sure there were some reports from women, beyond that picture. But Mr. Franken's career has yet to be ended or ruined. He did issue an
apology, I think, yesterday, in which he struck a pretty good tone and said the right things. If he truly believes what he said, and no one else
comes forward, and there's nothing more to it, I think his situation will survive; in other words, he'll remain in the senate. So his career wasn't
Some of these other cases I don't have the specifics on. However, you haven't heard the whole story on this situation as of yet. It isn't possible
because the 15 million paid out for issues with men in Congress includes an NDA that anyone with a complaintant report must sign. That means they
will not be reporting it, because they've agreed legally not to speak about it. But the fact that this large amount of money has been paid out and
these people shut up, is a huge wake up call on how business is being conducted in the senate and a reflection of what's okay in our society, what we
will accept in the behavior of elected officials, because we both put them there and pay them.
I get what you're saying, but still don't think you get what I'm saying. First, in the idea of being able to control your own life because you can
control your reaction to something, the point of assault or rape, is having that control taken from you, by the perpetrator. I certainly agree that
what you experienced in the case of you Lt. was assault and workplace sexual harassment, at the very least. That you didn't make an issue of it
because of what it meant being in the military (and yes, I do understand the differences) and that it didn't effect you, I understand. However, did
she overpower you on a daily basis? Was it a pattern of behavior for her, both with you and others? A constant threat to you of what you would face
under her command everyday? I didn't want to bring up an ugly moment in military history here, but there's always the Tailhook scandal to refer back
to here in America. And other cases. I have a cousin who was a JAG attorney and an airforce colonel for his career, and tried some of these men in
the military for rape. There's a reason that happened at the end of his career, though, right before he retired.
The fact remains, whether you had a reaction to it that made you feel icky or not, or remained with you or not, it shouldn't have happened to you.
And just because you didn't want to enter that heap of crap of what it would mean for both you and the Lt., which I totally understand, doesn't mean
that more agregious behaviors have not been suffered by the people now reporting them, which did affect their lives more substantially than this
evidently affected you.
The point at which someone should be stripped of their accomplishments, jobs, and careers is a difficult one to assess, but when it is about an
elected official, well, that's one place the vote speaks. But generally, no one is losing everything as you describe except the men who run their
offices this way, or someone running for a campaign that's a sitting judge and I heard on CNN this morning was actually banned from his local mall
because he's that well known to prey on teenagers.
When it comes to men in Hollywood losing their careers, we are talking, though, about a culture we've known for a long time to reflect the extremes of
behavior within our culture, especially in this case. There is a tendency in that case, as well, to think most of these women in the film business or
trying to break into it, have or are willing to use their bodies and/or willingness to provide services, shall we say, and this isn't necessarily so.
And they don't come forward, and when they don't, the behavior by the man becomes more entrenched as he thinks he's gotten away with this. Again, why
we need to keep talking about it. There are women with good reputations and a lot of talent who are coming forward to describe a pattern of behavior
by a man in an authoritative role that is unwanted by them, and caused them to have to deal with this issue, in one way or another.
No one has gone to jail, yet, that I know of, and I don't see a lot of men losing everything over this. That some of them do usually is about a
pattern of behavior so egregious it can no longer have a blind eye turned on it. People don't usually back down and just apologize, unless there's
something to it what they've been accused of. Surely, you would agree with that.
But, in general, to take it specifically case by case, is not the thread topic. Many have pointed out, as well as me, that this is an incredibly
complex topic, with a wide range of behavior and reaction described. Surely, you would agree with that, as well. I just don't see some huge witch
hunt, where there are all these authoritative men losing everything in their lives over this. However, two things: if a man shows he conducts
"business" with women in this way in a pattern of behavior and it's more than mildly crossing the line, which would be unwanted touching (in my mind,
anyway), and especially if it includes rape (taking control of someone in an unwanted fashion, after no has been asserted) he probably should cease
his current business, at the very least. And the second thing, the big clue is what you wrote yourself: I'm not describing normal adult
relationships. And I've let you know that's part of the problem, in what I said about my own mate. Perhaps it's an underpinning of a lot of how men
perceive having power, that's totally normal, but the fact he wishes it would just go away like you, is a reflection partly also of how he and I get
along at times. So, yeah, it does affect normal adult relationships and reflect some of what is within them for some of us, that we would wish to
I'm describing a wide range of behavior and affect, so it's easy to end of with fairly muddy water, and a difficulty of perception, I understand. I'm
glad you have continued to talk about your perception of it, whether we agree or not, because this conversation must continue so that we can stop the
perception that part of being feminine goes from the personal to the business world is the body and sexual favors are tradeable commodities,
objectified for use and pleasure, and that defines a large part of what being a woman means. Certainly, I am not suggesting that men should be
viewed this way in response or to get even, and am aware that how a woman takes this and how a man does may be different, as well.
edit on 25-11-2017 by tetra50 because: (no reason given)