when #metoo is too many

a reply to: InTheLight

Hey InTheLIght: Thanks for reading and participating.
I know everything you've added here is true: It's a fine line. And it's a complex mix, and yet, most importantly, is the position and circumstance of the people involved, surely, their ages, situations, all that you wrote. There is flirtation and then there is violation. Separating the two is a difficult terrain for sure, but it's necessary we continue to have the conversation...

And primarily, what I am describing is how it makes many of us feel when it's a violation. Men get stripped of their careers and life's work because, perhaps, it's a pattern of behavior and actually how they've run their offices. And what I mean is bluntly: it's a blow job, or you don't get paid a salary anymore.....

Is everyone who pays taxes okay with the American Congress paying out 15 million and having all those people sign NDA's so they won't talk? There many "patterns" of behavior here I am wishing to discuss, and they underpin and define to some degree larger institutions and this paradigm..
regards,
tetra50

a reply to: tetra50

Hi tetra,

Firstly, hope you had a great thanksgiving. I live in England and we don't have that here. We have plenty of other overly-commercialised, designated "festivities" designed to further asset-strip the population though so, don't feel too badly for us

Ok,

In response to what I was saying about perception.
It is ENTIRELY up to you whether you incorporate the feedback, messages, attitudes, behaviour etc of others into your concept of self. The concept of self is an artificial construct (albeit a useful and necessary one). Therefore, you can choose how you respond/adapt/feel/behave in ANY situation. Like I said, you cannot CONTROL other people's behaviour but you can always (and only ever) control your response to it. It is not a matter of what is the "right" or "wrong" way to respond - becoming upset, depressed, anxious etc as a result of some (perceived) horrible event is not wrong, and choosing to not let those things change, affect or define you is not "right" - it is simply about what is the OPTIMUM way of living? Being that we can only control our own lives, which attitude or viewpoint leads to the happiest, most content and optimal way of being?

Now, in regards your "it's just flirtation" point:

I described 2 incidents where I was physically "assaulted" and one where I was made to expose myself. Yet you choose to focus on the incidents where I described (what is seemingly accepted these days as) verbal, sexual harassment.

In two of the three incidents described, that I refer to above, two of the 'perpetrators' were my direct superiors in the workplace. You said I was not under threat of losing my job but, the incident with the Lt. for instance, if you know anything at all about the armed forces you would know that, if you're entry level rank (I won't say what I was at the time as that's more information than I care to share here) and you're instructed to do something by an Lt. You damn well do it... and, not only is there the, at times unspoken, and at others explicitly spelled out, threat of losing your job, there's the threat of going to jail for not complying.
Now, you will argue that, had I disobeyed, she's hardly going to take me to task over it, by nature of the thing she was telling me to do. HOWEVER, that is the EXACT reply that would normally be regarded as "victim blaming". The fact that I was young, relatively inexperienced in the world, she was in a position of significant power over me, with the full weight of the establishment behind her (trust me, officers get away with a LOT) could easily be seen as sufficient grounds for a case of serious misconduct on her part.

The point I'm making there though is that, whilst I could EASILY (and, apparently, rightfully) see myself as 'a victim' in that situation, I absolutely did not, and do not.
As a result of my perception of the situation (not the 'facts of the matter'), I have a happy life, i have no negative feelings, i have a funny story to tell people and she has a long and successful career and can continue to feed her family and pay her mortgage.

I'm sorry but I can't help but feel that the vast majority of this is simply over-inflated, hyped up nonsense that says a lot more about the "victims" than it does about the "perpetrators".

One guy takes a photo of him pretending to squeeze someone's boobs: career over, branded a scum bag and a sex offender

One guy touched someone's knee 15 YEARS AGO: Career over and branded a scum bag and a sex offender.

One guy performed oral sex on a woman, she then performed oral sex on him. Now, many years later, says she wasn't into it and accuses him of rape: pilloried, denigrated, branded a sex offender.


And the list just goes on and on and on...

Like I said in another thread: guess I'll be accusing every woman I've ever been with of rape then because I've performed oral sex on a woman (and other acts) plenty of times when I wasn't 100% into it... welcome to a world where having normal adult relationships is rape and a criminal offence...

Hey Indrasweb: At least some of your information in the last examples, appears to be incorrect: The first case you referred to is Senator Franken's, and I'm pretty sure there were some reports from women, beyond that picture. But Mr. Franken's career has yet to be ended or ruined. He did issue an apology, I think, yesterday, in which he struck a pretty good tone and said the right things. If he truly believes what he said, and no one else comes forward, and there's nothing more to it, I think his situation will survive; in other words, he'll remain in the senate. So his career wasn't ruined.

Some of these other cases I don't have the specifics on. However, you haven't heard the whole story on this situation as of yet. It isn't possible because the 15 million paid out for issues with men in Congress includes an NDA that anyone with a complaintant report must sign. That means they will not be reporting it, because they've agreed legally not to speak about it. But the fact that this large amount of money has been paid out and these people shut up, is a huge wake up call on how business is being conducted in the senate and a reflection of what's okay in our society, what we will accept in the behavior of elected officials, because we both put them there and pay them.


I get what you're saying, but still don't think you get what I'm saying. First, in the idea of being able to control your own life because you can control your reaction to something, the point of assault or rape, is having that control taken from you, by the perpetrator. I certainly agree that what you experienced in the case of you Lt. was assault and workplace sexual harassment, at the very least. That you didn't make an issue of it because of what it meant being in the military (and yes, I do understand the differences) and that it didn't effect you, I understand. However, did she overpower you on a daily basis? Was it a pattern of behavior for her, both with you and others? A constant threat to you of what you would face under her command everyday? I didn't want to bring up an ugly moment in military history here, but there's always the Tailhook scandal to refer back to here in America. And other cases. I have a cousin who was a JAG attorney and an airforce colonel for his career, and tried some of these men in the military for rape. There's a reason that happened at the end of his career, though, right before he retired.

The fact remains, whether you had a reaction to it that made you feel icky or not, or remained with you or not, it shouldn't have happened to you. And just because you didn't want to enter that heap of crap of what it would mean for both you and the Lt., which I totally understand, doesn't mean that more agregious behaviors have not been suffered by the people now reporting them, which did affect their lives more substantially than this evidently affected you.

The point at which someone should be stripped of their accomplishments, jobs, and careers is a difficult one to assess, but when it is about an elected official, well, that's one place the vote speaks. But generally, no one is losing everything as you describe except the men who run their offices this way, or someone running for a campaign that's a sitting judge and I heard on CNN this morning was actually banned from his local mall because he's that well known to prey on teenagers.

When it comes to men in Hollywood losing their careers, we are talking, though, about a culture we've known for a long time to reflect the extremes of behavior within our culture, especially in this case. There is a tendency in that case, as well, to think most of these women in the film business or trying to break into it, have or are willing to use their bodies and/or willingness to provide services, shall we say, and this isn't necessarily so. And they don't come forward, and when they don't, the behavior by the man becomes more entrenched as he thinks he's gotten away with this. Again, why we need to keep talking about it. There are women with good reputations and a lot of talent who are coming forward to describe a pattern of behavior by a man in an authoritative role that is unwanted by them, and caused them to have to deal with this issue, in one way or another.

No one has gone to jail, yet, that I know of, and I don't see a lot of men losing everything over this. That some of them do usually is about a pattern of behavior so egregious it can no longer have a blind eye turned on it. People don't usually back down and just apologize, unless there's something to it what they've been accused of. Surely, you would agree with that.

But, in general, to take it specifically case by case, is not the thread topic. Many have pointed out, as well as me, that this is an incredibly complex topic, with a wide range of behavior and reaction described. Surely, you would agree with that, as well. I just don't see some huge witch hunt, where there are all these authoritative men losing everything in their lives over this. However, two things: if a man shows he conducts "business" with women in this way in a pattern of behavior and it's more than mildly crossing the line, which would be unwanted touching (in my mind, anyway), and especially if it includes rape (taking control of someone in an unwanted fashion, after no has been asserted) he probably should cease his current business, at the very least. And the second thing, the big clue is what you wrote yourself: I'm not describing normal adult relationships. And I've let you know that's part of the problem, in what I said about my own mate. Perhaps it's an underpinning of a lot of how men perceive having power, that's totally normal, but the fact he wishes it would just go away like you, is a reflection partly also of how he and I get along at times. So, yeah, it does affect normal adult relationships and reflect some of what is within them for some of us, that we would wish to change.

I'm describing a wide range of behavior and affect, so it's easy to end of with fairly muddy water, and a difficulty of perception, I understand. I'm glad you have continued to talk about your perception of it, whether we agree or not, because this conversation must continue so that we can stop the perception that part of being feminine goes from the personal to the business world is the body and sexual favors are tradeable commodities, objectified for use and pleasure, and that defines a large part of what being a woman means. Certainly, I am not suggesting that men should be viewed this way in response or to get even, and am aware that how a woman takes this and how a man does may be different, as well.
tetra50

a reply to: tetra50


Hi again tetra,

Firstly, thank you for continuing to take a civil tone and make reasonable arguments for your point of view. That may seem like a minor thing but it seems to be increasingly rare in the online world these days.

Ok, so, I'm going to get away from the whole "it's down to perception thing" because I fear we will go around in circles forever on that point. What I will say is that personal perception is everything when it comes to dealing with any situation. I have seen this borne out many many times over the last 15 years of working with people who have suffered and continue to suffer trauma, abuse and related mental health issues. We define our own reality based entirely on the stories we tell ourselves. As I said before, I am not suggesting that there is a right or wrong way of perceiving a situation but I would encourage anyone and everyone to examine whether their perception is the optimum way of being.

Also, I acknowledge that you're right when you say that some of the outcomes I mentioned aren't entirely accurate. However, I'd encourage you to think about whether or not, for example, the career of the senator you mentioned might not be severely adversely affected by this in the long run. Perhaps he might not outright lose his job but I'd say career advancement might be off the table...


Anyway, onwards:


The cases you refer to above relate to very serious criminal offences: rape, serious sexual assault etc. There is no way that I or anyone else (surely) would advocate ignoring that or downplay the significance of those actions. I would 100% agree that these cases should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law BY the law and not the court of public opinion, which is how these cases are currently being tried.

It's interesting that you bring up the fund to pay people off.....

If you'd been the victim of a genuine serious sexual assualt, rape, etc. Is there any amount of money that they could pay you to allow your rapist to avoid justice? Why are people making these accusations and then accepting money to go away again? I'd say that would suggest your motivation has nothing to do with justice and more to do with lining your own pockets.
If I had been abused, raped or seriously assaulted there is no amount of money that would prevent me from making sure that person faced justice for what they did.

Look, the whole reason I brought up my own experience was to illustrate that this is not an issue of men being inherently inclined to behave in this way due to systematic misogynistic attitudes but an issue of human behaviour. When I say normal adult relationships I mean normal adult interactions based on normal mental processes and functioning. Rape does not fall into this category, however "flirtation" (as you suggest was happening when I was receiving unwanted and unsolicited sexual remarks- an attitude that would be grounds for an outpouring of pure rage if it were the other way around i.e. male on female btw ), touching other humans, exploring and testing boundaries, misunderstanding situations, engaging in puerile shenanigans of a moderately sexual nature, 'trying it on' , trying to kiss someone, making advances (regardless of the environment or situation) etc ARE borne of normal human mental functioning. These are not deviant behaviours AND, crucially, NOT male behaviours. The reason it appears to be disproportionately male is because the perception of these incidents is different whether it is a male of female engaging in these acts i.e. you will NEVER hear of a woman having to resign her job because a man complained that she touched his knee 15 years ago...


These discussions ultimately go nowhere because people refuse to see that this issue isn't about male behaviour towards woman. Sure, people SAY "this isn't a gender issue" (As you have done here in this thread) but then go "but menmenmenmenmenmenmen" (as you have also done repeatedly in this thread - women in Hollywood, women in business, men's perception of power, just in the above post.. you and many others responding here).
I don't BLAME people for that because the attitudes that underpin that are drummed into us from the first moment we come I to this society. However, whilst we continue to malign men, call them out for their largely innocuous behaviour (NOT rape or serious sexual assault OF COURSE), punish them and publicly try them without any evidence, whislt continuing to COMPLETELY IGNORE the exact same behaviours exhibited by women, thus holding them to a completely different standard, then it is certain than nothing is fundamentally going to change.

The fact that nobody can even BEGIN to admit that this is EQUALLY an issue with both men and women speaks volumes. Your preconceived notions will not allow you to entertain that idea.. people will argue bitterly that that isn't the case, despite the well documented evidence that shows that men are equally likely to be the victims of abuse.

So, until we really start to address all sides of this issue, this is and will remain a targeted witch hunt...

a reply to: Indrasweb

I'd like to add also;

I don't believe that you and I have vastly differing views on this.

Neither of us think that rape or sexual assault isn't happening.

Neither of us think that rape or sexual assault shouldn't be punished in accordance with the law.

Neither of us think that women are not being subjected to inappropriate conduct by male peers.

Neither of us think that women should be made to degrade themselves in order to get along.


Where our opinions seem to differ is that, if you're being entirely honest, you see this as largely a male issue and one which is somehow the result of inherent biases built into some kind of patriarchal system. I, on the other hand, do not. I can see that this kind of thing happens just as much female on male but the response and perception of society to these issues is vastly different and entirely hypocritical.

I was speaking with a colleague of mine the other day (female psychiatrist) who opined, in all sincerity, that men only perceive that they have power in our society and it is really women that hold all the real power.

I am inclined to agree with her. When you look at things that REALLY matter i.e. who is safer walking down the street, who is more likely to be the victim of something seriously harmful (violent attack/murder), who has the longest life expectancy and, despite this, who gets to retire earlier and enjoy the rewards of their labour for longer, who is more likely to have to take dangerous work and or die at work as a result, who is more likely to be hideously mutilated or irreversibly damaged in the workplace, who has the greatest chance of being deprived of liberty, who has the highest suicide rate, who has the most resources dedicated to helping them, who has the courts on their side when it comes to sentencing or determining the fate of children in relationships that have broken down, who is most likely to be separated from their children and removed from their lives... really life altering, life destroying or life ending issues; you will see that women have a great deal of power indeed...

The point being: The notion that somehow "the system" is oppressing women and encouraging, disproportionately, men to abuse women, the notion that there is somehow a climate of abuse against women specifically, is simply a fabrication.

Further division based on spurious assumptions that does nothing to help us progress beyond the current us/them paradigm...


ETA:

Btw, I love women; my mother happens to be one, as does my girlfriend, my niece and many colleagues that I have a great deal of respect for. However, the simple act of voicing the opinions that I have here have, in the past, led to serious vitriolic personal attacks and accusations of misogyny, sexism, woman hating and oppression. This is a strong indicator that we are a LONG way from having a really honest and meaningful look at the issues we are facing as a society. We see the same dynamic in discussions about race or religion. It is, more often than not "my way or the highway" when, in reality, the truth is generally somewhere in between...

originally posted by: tetra50
a reply to: InTheLight

Hey InTheLIght: Thanks for reading and participating.
I know everything you've added here is true: It's a fine line. And it's a complex mix, and yet, most importantly, is the position and circumstance of the people involved, surely, their ages, situations, all that you wrote. There is flirtation and then there is violation. Separating the two is a difficult terrain for sure, but it's necessary we continue to have the conversation...

And primarily, what I am describing is how it makes many of us feel when it's a violation. Men get stripped of their careers and life's work because, perhaps, it's a pattern of behavior and actually how they've run their offices. And what I mean is bluntly: it's a blow job, or you don't get paid a salary anymore.....

Is everyone who pays taxes okay with the American Congress paying out 15 million and having all those people sign NDA's so they won't talk? There many "patterns" of behavior here I am wishing to discuss, and they underpin and define to some degree larger institutions and this paradigm..
regards,
tetra50

Well the old paradigm is disintegrating before our eyes and a new paradigm is emerging, one that has everyone pointing fingers and accusing. Do the many finally outweigh the few, in this particular issue?

Sigh. I had a houseful of family the past few days, so only now getting to this thread. I’m 51. #metoo. In my case, it was my father’s best friend and I was 17. Did I deserve it? No. Did he do what he did because of some power over me? No. He watched me grow up, and in his way loved me. Maybe he thought I had feelings for him as well. The difference is that he didn’t take no for an answer, and I had never been faced with this before (heck, at 17 I had never had sex before). He didn’t see how frightened I was, and he was almost delusional about the situation. Funny thing is, I didn’t tell my dad about what happened. I didn’t want him to lose his best friend. They were in the military together, fought in Korea together, were in each others weddings, etc. Lifelong friends. My mom had passed a few years earlier, so didn’t have that avenue to take either. I just stopped going to any gatherings where he’d be present. That made my family mad at ME.

Years later I finally told my stepmom. She was the one who convinced me to tell my dad. I was in my 30’s then. My father was heartbroken. Not that his lifelong friend had done something unspeakable to his daughter, BUT THAT I DIDN’T TELL HIM WHEN IT HAPPENED. All those years of family thinking I was aloof and uncaring about them because I would never show up for holidays or parties. All those years wasted when all I had to do was say something.

My dad confronted his friend. I don’t know what was said; all I know was that he never, ever saw him again. Didn’t even go to his funeral years later. And I still feel bad for that. Like somehow it was my fault.

So that is my story. Tetra, I understand what you were trying to convey in your OP. We should be talking about this. Yes, I believe there are instances where women are taking advantage of this whole #metoo movement- but there are some legitimate claims, and they were either too young, or too inexperienced to know how to handle the situation. I also believe that there are plenty of men out there that have claims too. But if we can teach the next generation that this behavior is unacceptable by either gender, and to speak up RIGHT AWAY, we’ll be on the right path.

a reply to: Indrasweb

First, Indrasweb: Of course I see it mainly from a woman's perspective, as male behavior, primarily bc I am a woman, so I see it from this point of view rather naturally. However, my intellect certainly accepts that this happens to people, and the larger point of my OP, is that the exploitation and sale of ourselves in this way, diminishes our humanity and creates a (or adds to the creation) of a larger tacit acquiescence that challenges everyone's humanity so that we all ultimately lose, no matter who the original sufferer is.

Dear Lolliek:
Thanks for sharing your story. This:

All those years of family thinking I was aloof and uncaring about them because I would never show up for holidays or parties. All those years wasted when all I had to do was say something.

is particularly poignant, to me, as so much was lost here in other relationships, all affected by this one secret.

Speaking up about it right away is certainly important, but so are people sharing their stories of it, and continuing to confront it in all its forms...

There are still a considerable amount of people who react to this in disbelief, criticism of the victim and with anger at the wrong party, in my estimation, anyway.

and InTheLight: Thanks again for your participation.
tetra50

a reply to: Lolliek

Yeah we relate, it is just really a different thing coming forth and saying I''m all right...



Same old songs, right? If feel fine. You are dragging the line.

What's been discussed in this thread is now being politicized, to a great degree.

This is exactly what I was both afraid of, expectant of and abhorred by. The problem of sexual harassment, and further and more importantly, transcends the issues of politicization. I would have hoped that we could have had the converstation on its on merits, regardless of the political landscape, as its been detailed here as a SOCIETAl issues, and hardly not limited to the political arena.

If we are going to create awareness of it, the politics of it mut be left behind, and it regarded as a wolrd=waide, rapmant issue that needs addressing agrregate to that, not just for political lead or gain. I hope we can continue to shed light on the brave poeple who has responded here an their stories, without any political bent.
Yours truly,
tetra


This is an "all walks of life," issue, people, and it behvooves us to deal with it now, accept it and go byond the politics of it. N one's story here is about working in a political capacity, or at least few of them, and so we shoudl take this out of the political arena.....

So what does ATS think: Franken has been forced to resign ,and called out our president on his own behavior, evidenced on tape of his attituide and behavior attendant to women?

Now women are coming forward having experienced his behavior. It seems a time when the behavior of powerful men with an attitude of entitlement of any behavior whatsoever has come to the fore, and they are being called on it.

Unfortunately, my mate thinks this is "silly." What do the rest of you think?

originally posted by: SR1TX
I used to work as a bartender.

Stopped reading.

I used to work as a bartender, too. Did that affect your reading comprehension?
tet

a reply to: tetra50

Do you really want exploration or were you sleeping these last 40 years?

MeToo is not too much, it's not enough.

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: tetra50

Do you really want exploration or were you sleeping these last 40 years?

MeToo is not too much, it's not enough.

InTheLight: Glad we agree, but sad to see you have to insult me to agree with me. This is part of why people that are also women may have been sleeping these last forty or more years, honey: because women just can't support each other, apparently, without insulting each other and competing all at the same time. It's frequently why I don't bother to speak for any of us, because then SOME of us will attack me. Hell, yeah, I have literally been sleeping. Look at some of my threads and you'll see precisely what I mean by that.
Regards,
Tetra

originally posted by: carewemust
I think a few men grab and touch a LOT of women. Most men don't do this.

Spoken as a man...not a woman.

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: tetra50

Do you really want exploration or were you sleeping these last 40 years?

MeToo is not too much, it's not enough.

InTheLight: Glad we agree, but sad to see you have to insult me to agree with me. This is part of why people that are also women may have been sleeping these last forty or more years, honey: because women just can't support each other, apparently, without insulting each other and competing all at the same time. It's frequently why I don't bother to speak for any of us, because then SOME of us will attack me. Hell, yeah, I have literally been sleeping. Look at some of my threads and you'll see precisely what I mean by that.
Regards,
Tetra

Honey? Really?

Well, honey, bring on the attacks I say...as for you, if you can't handle the heat stay out of the kitchen.

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: tetra50

Do you really want exploration or were you sleeping these last 40 years?

MeToo is not too much, it's not enough.

THIS is what I am replying to. I've no wish to attack you. Really? AND you called me "honey," which disarms me and I truly love, but WHY, really? "Bring on the attacks?" What was this reply from you, then?
tet

a reply to: tetra50

Did you know #Metoo includes men?

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: tetra50

I think the big problem is that as early as 30 years ago, men treated women differently.

Now we can discuss how inappropriate it was back then, but the point I'm trying to make is that we are using todays societal standards to judge yesterdays behaviors.

Some men (obviously most on congress) haven't moved on with the evolved way we should treat women.

There is no excuse for it.

They can either live in the past and get punished or adjust to a more respectful way of treating women.

It's really as simple as that.

Hey DBCowby: There were a few responses in this thread that put this behavior down to generational and past unenlightened, inequality based attitudes toward women. However, rape on college campuses with rohypnol, or just alcohol involved, seems to bear out my point that this is a generalized attitude. Most psychologists will tell you that rape isn't even so much about sex as it is about power over another human being. And yes, it certainly (rape, sexual harrassment) happens to men, as well.

What I've been trying to stress in this thread is sociopathy and use and abuse of power.
regards,
tetra

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: tetra50

I think the big problem is that as early as 30 years ago, men treated women differently.

Now we can discuss how inappropriate it was back then, but the point I'm trying to make is that we are using todays societal standards to judge yesterdays behaviors.

Some men (obviously most on congress) haven't moved on with the evolved way we should treat women.

There is no excuse for it.

They can either live in the past and get punished or adjust to a more respectful way of treating women.

It's really as simple as that.

Hey DBCowby: There were a few responses in this thread that put this behavior down to generational and past unenlightened, inequality based attitudes toward women. However, rape on college campuses with rohypnol, or just alcohol involved, seems to bear out my point that this is a generalized attitude. Most psychologists will tell you that rape isn't even so much about sex as it is about power over another human being. And yes, it certainly (rape, sexual harrassment) happens to men, as well.

What I've been trying to stress in this thread is sociopathy and use and abuse of power.
regards,
tetra

Hey DCCowboy we want to talk to your wife about a few things. Put her on. You yes you obviously are not putting forth good vibes.