when #metoo is too many

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: tetra50

Thanks for sharing what must be some pretty awful memories.

I don't think there is anything one can say in defence of the things people have put you through.

We are all sullied by the existence of those men you describe and I'd venture some of the negativity you experience in this thread is born of the shame of association with these creeps.

Hey SprocketUK: Thanks for that encouragement. I think you're likely right, and when I wrote it I knew there would be many men who didn't want to read it or take it seriously. I live with a man for ten years who admits he knows women experience this and it feeds into a bigger issue of those in power rising to power in a certain way, and then doing whatever they will when in power......but he doesn't want to talk about Trump on tape talking about what he can get away with in his treatment of "famous" women......

But at some point, if you're the father of a daughter, or you have a woman in your life you both respect AND adore, then you'll understand what I'm saying.....and my story IS NOT RARE. It's a symptom of a bigger issue I am wishing to address.

Take care. Thanks for reading and responding.
tetra

a reply to: tetra50

I worked once at an Auto Parts store in my earlier years, must have been 16 - 17 at the time, an older, attractive girl that I worked with of a rowdy type, slapped me while I was helping someone on the phone with a mean right hook on the right rear cheek, she was 22.

I feel I was assaulted, I didn't have anyone to tell or run to. There were no cameras and I was the only guy she showed a sort of different kind of attention to. Who would have believed me.

Fast forward to now and, o yeah I still don't give a S***, she was hot.

This lesson in perspective was free.

originally posted by: SR1TX
a reply to: tetra50

I worked once at an Auto Parts store in my earlier years, must have been 16 - 17 at the time, an older, attractive girl that I worked with of a rowdy type, slapped me while I was helping someone on the phone with a mean right hook on the right rear cheek, she was 22.

I feel I was assaulted, I didn't have anyone to tell or run to. There were no cameras and I was the only guy she showed a sort of different kind of attention to. Who would have believed me.

Fast forward to now and, o yeah I still don't give a S***, she was hot.

This lesson in perspective was free.

You're not getting it, and I'm too polite to be graphic enough to make you understand what it's like to be fourteen, and had your clothes ripped off, your body entirely violated without your permission, and then being spit on and blamed for it because you were just too pretty, and smiled "like you wanted it."

This isn't even the main thing I'm getting at. You either see and understand the perversion in the world that makes it possible for sociopaths to be the most highly successful people, and the rest of us subjugated to their rule, or you don't.
I'm not replying to you in this thread, anymore, respectfully.
tetra

a reply to: seagull

I must be missing a vital part of the puzzle, from your post I translated that you were ragging on men.

My bad, I base my replies on past experiences, I'm likely a bit erked at you telling me to keep it civil when I thought I was.

I'm only human and I screw up. Which sux because my aim is to be neutral, fair to say I often fall short of my goals.

a reply to: tetra50

Thanks, I know it ain't rare. My mum told me some awful stories and my wife, who is a very strong person also told me stuff from before we were together that still gets me in a rage.
She knows she only has to point out the blokes if she wants.

I'm undern o illusions that my daughter will have to rely on her mental strength at various points in her life either.
It's just a bit sad it's still like it, even if it's mostly better these days.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: seagull

I must be missing a vital part of the puzzle, from your post I translated that you were ragging on men.

My bad, I base my replies on past experiences, I'm likely a bit erked at you telling me to keep it civil when I thought I was.

I'm only human and I screw up. Which sux because my aim is to be neutral, fair to say I often fall short of my goals.

Hey Hopenotfear: We all fall short of all goals, but the fact we have good ones may matter the most.

I don't see Seagull as ragging on men, but actually defending them by saying most don't behave in such a manner.
This is important for me to address as the OP, because I don't hate men in any possible way. I am a divorced woman with a child, now in a ten year or more relationship. I love men, and love people, by extension. But there's a certain thing about men I find myself drawn to no matter how old I get, so this thread isn't about me hating men, despite what my life experiences have been, with SOME men.

Having said that, again, I am attempting to reveal what lies in the underbelly of our societal ills, in general, and the different ways it expresses itself and destroys our humanity, so that even the most humanistic amongst us, would vacate their own humanity because of the horror that's already transpired.

There's a lot of that on this website.....talk about how horrifying humanity can be. And wouldn't it be better if we made a conscious, moral AI or some such blather. Sure, give up our humanity. That's been the goal all along.
tetra

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: tetra50

Thanks, I know it ain't rare. My mum told me some awful stories and my wife, who is a very strong person also told me stuff from before we were together that still gets me in a rage.
She knows she only has to point out the blokes if she wants.

I'm undern o illusions that my daughter will have to rely on her mental strength at various points in her life either.
It's just a bit sad it's still like it, even if it's mostly better these days.

Sprocket: So sorry for your wife's experiences, but it says loads about the issue, in general, that she DOES NOT point out the bloke(s)....as for your being the father of a daughter, as I am the mother of one, too, she tells me it wasn't as bad for her as it was for me and prob. your wife. But part of the reason is we talk about it now.....

Thanks for listening, reading, and being a good husband/father/man....
tetra

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Nothing shaken. Or not much, anyway...it's late, and, well let's just say this ain't a pleasant topic for late night chat. I should have been a bit clearer... Mea culpa.

This sort of thing is, as Sprocket said above, not a rare occurrence. ...and since all too many people give it short shrift, as you thought I had, little is said, and less done.

It takes courage to speak out, and try to shine a light on a subject that the vast majority find disturbing. The OP is to be applauded for speaking out.

I find it, as a male of the species, reprehensible that any male, I won't call 'em a man because there's more to being a man than having external tackle, would think this acceptable behavior.

I, myself, have only witnessed something like this twice in my 50 plus years--both times things got...interesting, shall we say.

a reply to: tetra50

Women talking and us men listening are the only things that change this.

Hell, reading some stuff on this site made me cringe at my younger self's behavior at times. I'm sure I wouldn't have been nearly such a nob back then if I'd have understood things better.
This issue being up front will make some difference to current kids and that is a massive step forward.

Funny thing about my wife, she said she wouldn't put up with anything now, partly because she has confidence to challenge it and partly because she has the nuclear option to fall back on.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: tetra50

Women talking and us men listening are the only things that change this.

Hell, reading some stuff on this site made me cringe at my younger self's behavior at times. I'm sure I wouldn't have been nearly such a nob back then if I'd have understood things better.
This issue being up front will make some difference to current kids and that is a massive step forward.

Funny thing about my wife, she said she wouldn't put up with anything now, partly because she has confidence to challenge it and partly because she has the nuclear option to fall back on.

LOL@your wife in a good way, totally. I know exactly how to handle this kind of thing today, too. But sadly, young, shy and looking to please people around me, and shamed by this attention and the reaction when I sought help, taught me to internalize the shame and blame myself. I am 55, as I said before. I live in an urban, "hood," environment. As an adult I've been taken advantage of in something of the same way; but a big clue to that: They had to drug me by offering me a drink I trusted too much to take a sip of. The point of that bit of information is fully aware, no one would dare do what they did to me at fourteen.

But, for the reasons many of us have pointed out here, this needs to be discussed as uncomfortable as it is, for obvious reasons. Do we want our species to continue to be represented in this manner? And for all the women receiving flack for coming forward now, no matter who it's about, the true point is it's hardly a rare occurrence. And at a certain age, for many of us, it was more expected and encountered, than not.

I rely upon men like you, Sprocket, and Seagull, who are willing to hear that out without being defensive just because you're the gender I'm talking about.....because that doesn't mean I'm talking about YOU. We have instincts, biological wiring, and then we have the ability to reason. Just because you may even desire something, doesn't mean you have to act upon that desire.

Again, thanks for reading, taking seriously and participating in this thread.
tetra50

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Nothing shaken. Or not much, anyway...it's late, and, well let's just say this ain't a pleasant topic for late night chat. I should have been a bit clearer... Mea culpa.

This sort of thing is, as Sprocket said above, not a rare occurrence. ...and since all too many people give it short shrift, as you thought I had, little is said, and less done.

It takes courage to speak out, and try to shine a light on a subject that the vast majority find disturbing. The OP is to be applauded for speaking out.

I find it, as a male of the species, reprehensible that any male, I won't call 'em a man because there's more to being a man than having external tackle, would think this acceptable behavior.

I, myself, have only witnessed something like this twice in my 50 plus years--both times things got...interesting, shall we say.

Thanks for not trashing this thread, as another moderator almost did. It isn't a pleasant subject, no matter the time of day, and it's not easy for me to think about much less write about in a very public format. However, it's time we had the discussion, and I'm relying upon my faith in the humanity of men that most understand I am not implicating them just by gender, alone.

My daughter is 28. She tells me her experiences have not been what mine were, so I have some great hope. I certainly never would have wanted to see her suffer similarly.

The shame of this is ever present and ever lasting. You can go through years of therapy, and cognitively, intellectually know it wasn't your fault, but it never quite feels that way, no matter what you know or try or theorize.
It is a shame that cannot be undone, and it affects for life your sexuality, how you regard your body, etc. I think from what I've said this is obvious without me getting more specific than that, as it's nothing pleasant. But a whole lot of us live with it, and a whole lot of us live with it in silence.

I have the same, if not worse, disregard for women who make it up for attention or worse, money, and I realize that happens, because they make it even worse for those of us who really lived through and with it, and found no help nor recompense.

Thanks for your reading and participating in the thread.
tetra50

a reply to: tetra50

I feel at the end of the day it's a man problem. Just as it takes other men to address feminism to get others on board it takes other men to call out unacceptable behavior.

A personal story of mine that involved a literal sexual predator in my friend group throughout my 20's was consistently called out by women all the time, one by one they all came forward and no - one listened, well people did listen but nothing came of it.
It was simply just swept aside and some people even out right ignored.
But, once a male friend thought enough is enough came out and basically publicly shamed this guy on social media all hell broke loose.
But that raises another issue, why should it take a male figure to bring awareness. Goes to show how women are perceived even in today's world, prime example, someone in this thread even dismissed you as a female solely for your past employment, and others agreed with it! No wonder there's a new wave of feminism lately.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Oh dear god this is cancer. This thinking is cancer.

"Whites can't be oppressed" "Males can't be oppressed/raped"

Get a hold of yourself

a reply to: tetra50

To me, though, this is feeding into a generalized perversion in this world where a hegelian dialectic and the more sociopathic you are, the more successful you can become in a capatalistic driven "empire."

Horkheimer and Adorno called it positivism, I think you're on to something.

Enlightenment, understood in the widest sense as the advance of thought, has always aimed at liberating human beings from fear and installing them as masters. Yet the wholly enlightened earth is radiant with triumphant calamity.

D ialectics of Enlightenment (PDF)

You worked in a bar. By default, I'd expect people of either gender to turn into grabby pigs after the first drink, alcohol tends to make common sense evaporate. Your job is sort of a moot point because the behavior is a no-brainer there.

At what point though, do we examine the generational end of this supposed prevalence? I'm in my 30's, and for a number of years worked in a hotel. That is a setting where people would think these "lascivious" men would try to get away with anything, but I never came across it in all the years I worked in it.
Outside of work, I never came across these oafish stereotypes, either. Not with friends, not with random strangers in public. Nearly all of my friends corroborate this. The ones who insist men are grabby, leering pigs have a similar group of places they frequent -- bars & clubs. Well no s#, Sherlock, let's talk about this loosening of inhibitions thing alcohol does once again.

It seems to me, in my experience, that unsavory sober behavior is largely generational. Older generations had a bigger social problem with grabby guys, and at the very least, we can look at the ages of the famous accused recently and go "Hmm, there is a common age group thread here..."

a reply to: Nyiah


Just working in a bar isn't the reason.
yes, drunk people can be more of a handful than sober ones but she did say one of her issues was her manager who probably was stone cold sober when telling her the change in job was dependent upon his happiness.

No one has the right to expect another human being to put up with people being grabby. Hell, you can get thrown out of a strip joint for letting your hands wander, why would it be acceptable in a bar?

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: tetra50

Women talking and us men listening are the only things that change this.

Hell, reading some stuff on this site made me cringe at my younger self's behavior at times. I'm sure I wouldn't have been nearly such a nob back then if I'd have understood things better.
This issue being up front will make some difference to current kids and that is a massive step forward.

Funny thing about my wife, she said she wouldn't put up with anything now, partly because she has confidence to challenge it and partly because she has the nuclear option to fall back on.

LOL@your wife in a good way, totally. I know exactly how to handle this kind of thing today, too. But sadly, young, shy and looking to please people around me, and shamed by this attention and the reaction when I sought help, taught me to internalize the shame and blame myself. I am 55, as I said before. I live in an urban, "hood," environment. As an adult I've been taken advantage of in something of the same way; but a big clue to that: They had to drug me by offering me a drink I trusted too much to take a sip of. The point of that bit of information is fully aware, no one would dare do what they did to me at fourteen.

But, for the reasons many of us have pointed out here, this needs to be discussed as uncomfortable as it is, for obvious reasons. Do we want our species to continue to be represented in this manner? And for all the women receiving flack for coming forward now, no matter who it's about, the true point is it's hardly a rare occurrence. And at a certain age, for many of us, it was more expected and encountered, than not.

I rely upon men like you, Sprocket, and Seagull, who are willing to hear that out without being defensive just because you're the gender I'm talking about.....because that doesn't mean I'm talking about YOU. We have instincts, biological wiring, and then we have the ability to reason. Just because you may even desire something, doesn't mean you have to act upon that desire.

Again, thanks for reading, taking seriously and participating in this thread.
tetra50

I get what you are saying and just hearing it is awful. God only knows how you aren't some serial killer after some of the cr@p you had to put up with.

I'm just glad to know you are ok now and in a place you feel ok talking about it.

Oh and thanks

#metoo.

What if the guys will just start coming out and confessing to sexual harassment and assault without anyone accusing them.

I wonder how that would go over?

originally posted by: burgerbuddy
#metoo.

What if the guys will just start coming out and confessing to sexual harassment and assault without anyone accusing them.

I wonder how that would go over?

Would you ever be able to sit down with someone confessing that sort of thing and not think badly of them though? I don't think I could

a reply to: tetra50

I think the big problem is that as early as 30 years ago, men treated women differently.

Now we can discuss how inappropriate it was back then, but the point I'm trying to make is that we are using todays societal standards to judge yesterdays behaviors.

Some men (obviously most on congress) haven't moved on with the evolved way we should treat women.

There is no excuse for it.

They can either live in the past and get punished or adjust to a more respectful way of treating women.

It's really as simple as that.