when #metoo is too many

Im a 45 year old man with a slice of the "power" you refer to. I am sickened by people who abuse that authority. It cannot be accepted as the lay of the land, because I can't be a part of something like that. I've built my career on nothing but reputation for character, being given opportunities solely because of my reputation. I could likely do some really heinous stuff, and no one would believe my accuser because of decades of principled behavior. Not that I would ever act like that...as it makes me sick to think of people treating other people in that way.

WIth all that said, I have to recognize that sex is a commodity, and many women complaining about "metoo" chose to trade their commodity for opportunities. Should they have been forced to make that choice? No. But they did make that choice, and allowed the system to continue.

Forcible rape is an entirely different matter, and im more about lifetime imprisonment for that. But what we hear about many of the "bad guys" in Hollywood just makes it sounds like mutual gratiation.

originally posted by: Nyiah
You worked in a bar. By default, I'd expect people of either gender to turn into grabby pigs after the first drink, alcohol tends to make common sense evaporate. Your job is sort of a moot point because the behavior is a no-brainer there.

At what point though, do we examine the generational end of this supposed prevalence? I'm in my 30's, and for a number of years worked in a hotel. That is a setting where people would think these "lascivious" men would try to get away with anything, but I never came across it in all the years I worked in it.
Outside of work, I never came across these oafish stereotypes, either. Not with friends, not with random strangers in public. Nearly all of my friends corroborate this. The ones who insist men are grabby, leering pigs have a similar group of places they frequent -- bars & clubs. Well no s#, Sherlock, let's talk about this loosening of inhibitions thing alcohol does once again.

It seems to me, in my experience, that unsavory sober behavior is largely generational. Older generations had a bigger social problem with grabby guys, and at the very least, we can look at the ages of the famous accused recently and go "Hmm, there is a common age group thread here..."

I think you're right about it being generational. My son is in his early thirties, and him and all of his friends have always seemed very respectful, to all the women they know. His female friends have also told me that he's a great guy.

I have experienced much of what the OP went through, and I worked mostly in factories. I've had bosses wrap their arm around and try to grab me, I learned to wear a shirt with two pockets at the chest, and keep them full of paperwork like my time card, and other job related papers. Those papers got grabbed and crumpled instead of me.

I was propositioned twice on a street corner waiting for the light to turn green so I could cross. I actually had to tell them "I'm waiting for the f'ing light to change". They really thought I was a hooker!
I've had older men (three times, all when I was 16) follow me in their vehicles, that's when you drive to the police station or to somewhere crowded.
I've been in bar situations where I was more protected, because my male friends would run off the jerks. I did have male friends that were complete gentlemen and very protective.

It used to be really common. So common that I ignored the "me too" campaign because it was a long time ago, and it happened far too often.
That kind of attention is not fun...

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: tetra50

I feel at the end of the day it's a man problem. Just as it takes other men to address feminism to get others on board it takes other men to call out unacceptable behavior.

*snip*

But that raises another issue, why should it take a male figure to bring awareness. Goes to show how women are perceived even in today's world, prime example, someone in this thread even dismissed you as a female solely for your past employment, and others agreed with it! No wonder there's a new wave of feminism lately.

definitely... women were accusing bill cosby for years, and he even admitted to drugging women... but it took a male comedian calling him out in his act to really get any momentum. hundreds of women have to speak before one man goes well hey maybe there's something to it... and then suddenly it's a 'real' problem.

OP, i too have dressed down in public and at work to avoid drawing male attention. sometimes it's just easier, and isn't that a shame?

and i've seen enough terrible behavior from 'powerful' men that i am not in the least attracted to them, unless they demonstrate through their actions that they're not one of the terrible ones. i don't for a minute believe that all men act like this... but enough of them do, and you don't often know which one it is until it's too late, and you often find that each one of them has several friends who are 'good guys'...but knew about this and didn't try to stop it or call it out, because they didn't want to rock the boat.

believe what women tell you about this stuff. it's for real.

a reply to: ksiezyc
That is a silly post. Please look up males who have been raped statistics, you'll be surprised. Google is your friend.

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: tetra50

I feel at the end of the day it's a man problem. Just as it takes other men to address feminism to get others on board it takes other men to call out unacceptable behavior.

A personal story of mine that involved a literal sexual predator in my friend group throughout my 20's was consistently called out by women all the time, one by one they all came forward and no - one listened, well people did listen but nothing came of it.
It was simply just swept aside and some people even out right ignored.
But, once a male friend thought enough is enough came out and basically publicly shamed this guy on social media all hell broke loose.
But that raises another issue, why should it take a male figure to bring awareness. Goes to show how women are perceived even in today's world, prime example, someone in this thread even dismissed you as a female solely for your past employment, and others agreed with it! No wonder there's a new wave of feminism lately.

Hey strongfp: thanks for reading and sharing your perspective, here. I think in a lot of ways you hit the nail on the head. The reasons so many women don't come forward or speak out about it, are very much obvious by some men's reaction to what I wrote right here. What does being a bartender have to do with it, anyway? Is that a half step above or seen by men to indicate you are selling more than liquor? Apparently to some it is. Thank God it wasn't something I encountered from my own customer base when I worked in that job. Management may be a different issue, though. My point about that is it doesn't really matter what I was doing to earn my living. I reported to work, did my job and earned what I needed to live. But many women are aware that they will be judged by their apparent net worth or value, comparatively, to the men who assault them. And yes, you do need the credibility of a strong man behind you. Much of this happened to me after my own father had passed when I was quite young. I still feel today that if there'd been a strong man in my family life, still, other men would have thought twice before taking advantage.....a very sad thing.

Thanks for sharing your own experiences here.
tetra

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: tetra50

To me, though, this is feeding into a generalized perversion in this world where a hegelian dialectic and the more sociopathic you are, the more successful you can become in a capatalistic driven "empire."

Horkheimer and Adorno called it positivism, I think you're on to something.

Enlightenment, understood in the widest sense as the advance of thought, has always aimed at liberating human beings from fear and installing them as masters. Yet the wholly enlightened earth is radiant with triumphant calamity.

D ialectics of Enlightenment (PDF)

Hey PublicOpinion: Thanks for seeing that I was trying to take this somewhere further than powerful men/famous women/sex as a commodity. I welcome your participation in the thread, and thank you for it.
tetra

originally posted by: Nyiah
You worked in a bar. By default, I'd expect people of either gender to turn into grabby pigs after the first drink, alcohol tends to make common sense evaporate. Your job is sort of a moot point because the behavior is a no-brainer there.

At what point though, do we examine the generational end of this supposed prevalence? I'm in my 30's, and for a number of years worked in a hotel. That is a setting where people would think these "lascivious" men would try to get away with anything, but I never came across it in all the years I worked in it.
Outside of work, I never came across these oafish stereotypes, either. Not with friends, not with random strangers in public. Nearly all of my friends corroborate this. The ones who insist men are grabby, leering pigs have a similar group of places they frequent -- bars & clubs. Well no s#, Sherlock, let's talk about this loosening of inhibitions thing alcohol does once again.

It seems to me, in my experience, that unsavory sober behavior is largely generational. Older generations had a bigger social problem with grabby guys, and at the very least, we can look at the ages of the famous accused recently and go "Hmm, there is a common age group thread here..."

Hello Nylah: Yes to your last, at least, I think we've established it used to be much worse for women.
But I've had enough of this bartending thing seeming to excuse or explain certain behavior. Absolutely none of what I described ever happened to me at work with customers. Remember you have the bar between you and them, and there's a reason for that.

My primary job in life was working professionally as a teacher of riding, and working with performance horses. LOL. I'm not a weak, whiney nor silly enough woman to not understand what you'll encounter in the setting of a bar, or being open to certain situations with men. I put that bit in there because at 22, it was the first job harassment I encountered from my employer, who wasn't drinking and rarely did.

I'm quite glad you never experienced any of this, but I hope you can see beyond the topical first pass read of this thread, as it isn't about bashing men, and I've tried to make that point many times. Women can certainly be offfenders, as well, frankly. It's more about behavior betraying humanity, dignity, etc. and what that means on a larger scale in this society.
Thanks for reading.
tetra50

I think it is difficult, at best, to really get a good read on frequency and extent and that is certainly not exclusive to this topic.

The perceptual impact of things that we disagree with is far, far greater than either those we agree with or neutral "non-events."

This is further exacerbated in individuals who had negative experiences earlier in life (and sometimes later). This skews the perception to include more of those neutral events into the negative.

This whole principle drives everything from the success of trolls to thinking sites like ATS are heavily right, or left, wing. The events that are seen as negative take significantly more space in our awareness than those we agree with or see as neutral. For example, a troll on a given topic is likely to receive many, many more replies on a topic than someone who is polite and well spoken.

This influences our perception of the events after the fact, and even colors our memory of things that might have well been entirely neutral. In hindsight, it would appear the discussion thread was infested with negativity and the "opposition," when in actuality, they simply took up more priority and "space" in our awareness.

I have my own theories as to why this happens, but it makes it very, very difficult to have a solid conversation with grounds for commonality. Some acts are reprehensible and unacceptable and when/if they happen, they can impact perception for a lifetime.

a reply to: snowspirit

Thanks for reading and participating, Snowspirit. We are likely around the same age. And yes, to some degree I've found this less so now, but that's ignoring, also, that certain campuses have had big problems around sexual crime not all that long ago.

But what I'm most interested in about your own story is how it becomes painfully, obviously true in the details of how women like you and I combatted this in the smallest of ways, had to think of those things, like wearing a shirt with pockets over your breasts, and keeping those pockets filled with paperwork....any small thing we could do to stave off this kind of attention.

No, this attention certainly does not feel good. But yes, let's hope shining a light on this behavior reaches either the people feeling free to behave this way, and/or the young women who may need still to hear they are not alone....
tetra

a reply to: Serdgiam

Hey Serdgiam: Welcome to weighing in on the thread topic, though I'm not entirely sure I understand clearly what you just wrote. I think you basically said I might perceive this as worse than it is (statistically) just because it happened to me. My daughter and her friends definitely seemed to have experienced less of this than I did at their age. So, it seems, perhaps, that things have been improving. And I don't at all miss BigFatFurryTexan's point about sex as a commodity, and some women have certainly made choices around that. I don't think I am making assumptions because it happened to me. And there have been men contributing here that know their wives told them the same story, and other women reporting the same. Amongst women of my generation, at least, my story is hardly rare, unfortunately.

There is a warning here buried perhaps a little too deep for most to catch, that commoditizing oneself in any way for any reason may not only take something you cannot get back, but participating in the other side of it and demanding it, does the same, and karma's a bitch on that front. With tacit approval, unspoken, it takes a piece of all of us, and one must wonder why so many powerful men, that have distinct places in driving societal change or status quo behave in this way.....and I'm certainly not limiting this to just men, nor bashing them....

We speak of government tyranny on this website frequently. We speak of the perversion of the constitution, of being an enslaved populous. This is an underlying factor, is what I am asserting, to that perversion.
Regards,
tetra

a reply to: tetra50

Wellll, I'm conflating an enormous amount of subjects due to a similar underlying psychology. And it certainly isn't directed solely at you, its something we all do.

Essentially, if you had a horrible event happen earlier in life, it can and will influence perception. So, if someone was attacked by a dog as a child, they are likely to carry that, at least for a while. That individual is significantly more likely to perceive neutral, and even positive events with canines in a negative light.

The same correlation can be made with any event, including the despicable act of rape. This will not only influence that specific individual, but will also impact any and all efforts to objectively explore the situation through things like statistics.

On this topic, there is even an immense difference between men and women and who is doing what. Sexual assault, harassment, or even rape by a woman of a man will frequently be met with levity, and due to that, measures like statistics on frequency are mostly meaningless.

Another way to put it is that, if you had been put into exactly the same situations as your daughter, its possible to perceive it quite differently due to experiences in your formative years (both individual and cultural). Even possibly to the extent where, if someone performed a statistical analysis, it would show you experienced more harassment, unwanted advances, etc. than your daughter despite all of the events being precisely the same. To be clear, that's not to say exactly that would happen with you specifically, just highlighting the impact that can be there in seemingly objective markers.

I think its a very difficult subject for that reason. It muddies the waters on all applicable subjects, but when it involves some truly egregious behavior, very strong emotions, generational changes, etc.. it is impossible to pin everything down. Which, in turn, can cause some men to be dismissive and some women to be overly sensitive.

I guess when all is said and done (because I know I'm entirely too verbose), I feel these issues should be approached and worked on as a people. Once we start to make major differentiations among gender, race, or even something as silly as ear size, we risk exacerbating and perpetuating the issue due to our innate psychology. Of course, some propose the exact opposite to be true, but I really do feel that fosters a victim mentality on one side and a dismissive, flippant mentality on the other.

a reply to: Serdgiam

Then how do you suggest we approach having the conversation, that we both know must begin with anecdotal evidence....?
You see, I take a little umbrage at your suggestion that because I suffered this trauma early, it fostered an overly sensitive, victim mentality that so affects my perception of this behavior, that it can't be trusted.

As SnowSpirit gave the intimate examples of altering what you wear, even, to avoid being groped, while still knowing this was just a part of what we all had to deal with as women of that generation, and to speak up about it would get you really nowhere.

I, as well, learned early, as I said, to gracefully, if that's even possible under such circumstances at the ripe age of fourteen, move a man's hand from my breast back down to my waist, without "raising a stink" about it......

Anyway, I appreciate your reading and participating in this conversation which I think we both agree has far more societal implications, effects and consequences than just a perpetrator and a victim...
regards,
tetra50

Ok,

I am 35
I am male
I am average looking
I have generally worked in female dominated work environments (aside from when I was in the army when I was younger)

I have had:

One women straddle me, forcibly grab me and stick her tongue down my throat whilst sitting on a sofa in a bar talking to my friend .

I have had my (female) assistant manager at one job send me unsolicited and obscene text messages.

I have had my female team leader grope me and try to stick her tongue down my throat on a works night out (again unwelcome and unsolicited)

I have had several female colleagues (generally older, middle aged women) make sexual and obscene remarks about various parts of my anatomy, often in front of others and when I was in vulnerable positions like bending down or if I was on the floor getting something from under the desk for example.

When i was in the army I had my troop commander, a female lieutenant, order me to show her my junk and I complied (there's context to that story btw, it wasn't just totally out of the blue). She was in a position of almost complete authority over me and i was 18 and a half (she was quite a bit older of course).


Oh and as an aside from the "I'm white and never encountered racism" #e earlier: I lived for quite some time in a predominantly Pakistani migrant area and received numerous threats, abuse and attempted intimidation, all specifically because I'm white.

So...


Should all those women lose their jobs, lose their ability to pay their mortgages, lose their pensions, be disgraced and abused by the general public?

Should i be curled up in the corner of the shower like Ace Ventura and crying myself to sleep at night because I'm such a victim?

You know what i did in ALL those situations? Laughed it off.. simply brushed it off and forgot about it..

I haven't thought of any of those incidents since, aside from in recent weeks when all this #metoo craziness started kicking off and guys started having their careers, families, pensions and years of hard work blown out of the water over accusations of touching people's knees a decade and a half ago...

The reason I mentioned that I'm average looking is because I'm really nothing special to look at and so there's no reason to think that somehow my experience would be especially unique .. I have no particular defining characteristic that would mean that my experience would be entirely different from many other guys. So where's all the women losing their jobs over this?

If someone grabs, gropes, forces a kiss or whatever, you say "stop, I'm not interested". If they don't then that's a BIG problem.. if they do.. then for #s sake, just get over it and get on with your life... stop being a victim..

a reply to: Indrasweb
Hey Indrasweb: Regardless of whether any of that caused you later problems or not, I don't ascribe to the idea that my starting this conversation is just my being a victim. I have repeatedly said this isn't about bashing any particular gender. Nor am I seeking sympathy for my perceived victim mentality.

I am truly sorry all that happened to you, and firmly believe it should not have. The conversation I am wishing to have is a realization that this behavior, regardless of gender or its affect or lack thereof on you who experienced it, represents a perversion of our humanity on a societal level.....in other words it represents something way beyond yours or my anecdotal experiences and perceptions.

I am no victim....btw. That insults me and I've sought here to insult no one. This is about unacceptable behavior by people in power over our basic needs: I.e. Shelter, food, etc. and taking advantage of anyone and everyone's need to provide for themselves in that way. And further, to be younger than legal age and not know where to go for help or what to do, when encountering such behavior.

Did you truly read the OP? Because if you did, it is hardly about anyone losing their jobs or social standing, in fact, I really protected every one of those people....
Regards to you,
Tetra50

a reply to: tetra50

You are certainly free to take all the umbrage you want, but I tried to be as explicitly clear as possible that I was using the anecdotal evidence to illustrate a point that may not be applicable to you.

You seemed to link it all together, but there were separate points, albeit related, throughout that post.

Would you agree that to have a proper conversation and possibly even move the situation forward, we must first be willing to listen/read what the other is actually saying?

Ill try to be as clear as possible: I never said that what happened to you, specifically, created an overly sensitive victim mentality in you. What I said is that it can create that in some people and that tends to result in dismissive behavior from the "other side." Nor did I ever say that your perception couldn't be trusted, at least no more or less than my own.

The point was, and this is an answer to your question as well, that we need to be aware of our own psychology and reactions in these situations. Because, they can cause breakdowns in communication that can be irreparable. Also, like I said, this is pertinent to a great many topics in our current social dialog, as the exact same thing happens there.

Frequently, there can be a merging between overarcing social commentary and personal experience. In this case, I was not referring to any direct and overt groping that either you or snowspirit experienced. That is blatant unacceptable behavior, but it also doesn't constitute the entirety of the events that are labeled in the same way.

Past experiences like that groping, or worse, can lead to some individuals perceiving even a simple compliment in exactly the same light.

This is then compounded by the dismissive reaction it inevitably creates in some others, and that is a very, very problematic cycle. One that I feel must be examined before much reconciliation can be made.

I absolutely agree with you. What you describe derails any forward movement, or point to the discussion, and is never part of the solution. I am sorry it took me a while to understand what you are saying. It has value and promotes what I'm trying to do here, which is see that such behavior is an underpinning to a greater thing then all our anecdotes, and in the end, affects us all negatively in the subjugation, objectification and general loss of what our humanity should stand for.

Again, thanks for your participation.
tetra
P.S. We have interacted well on these boards for years. I certainly hope what happened between us here is not irreparable, as you describe.

originally posted by: Indrasweb
Ok,

I am 35
I am male
I am average looking
I have generally worked in female dominated work environments (aside from when I was in the army when I was younger)

I have had:

One women straddle me, forcibly grab me and stick her tongue down my throat whilst sitting on a sofa in a bar talking to my friend .

I have had my (female) assistant manager at one job send me unsolicited and obscene text messages.

I have had my female team leader grope me and try to stick her tongue down my throat on a works night out (again unwelcome and unsolicited)

I have had several female colleagues (generally older, middle aged women) make sexual and obscene remarks about various parts of my anatomy, often in front of others and when I was in vulnerable positions like bending down or if I was on the floor getting something from under the desk for example.

When i was in the army I had my troop commander, a female lieutenant, order me to show her my junk and I complied (there's context to that story btw, it wasn't just totally out of the blue). She was in a position of almost complete authority over me and i was 18 and a half (she was quite a bit older of course).


Oh and as an aside from the "I'm white and never encountered racism" #e earlier: I lived for quite some time in a predominantly Pakistani migrant area and received numerous threats, abuse and attempted intimidation, all specifically because I'm white.

So...


Should all those women lose their jobs, lose their ability to pay their mortgages, lose their pensions, be disgraced and abused by the general public?

Should i be curled up in the corner of the shower like Ace Ventura and crying myself to sleep at night because I'm such a victim?

You know what i did in ALL those situations? Laughed it off.. simply brushed it off and forgot about it..

I haven't thought of any of those incidents since, aside from in recent weeks when all this #metoo craziness started kicking off and guys started having their careers, families, pensions and years of hard work blown out of the water over accusations of touching people's knees a decade and a half ago...

The reason I mentioned that I'm average looking is because I'm really nothing special to look at and so there's no reason to think that somehow my experience would be especially unique .. I have no particular defining characteristic that would mean that my experience would be entirely different from many other guys. So where's all the women losing their jobs over this?

If someone grabs, gropes, forces a kiss or whatever, you say "stop, I'm not interested". If they don't then that's a BIG problem.. if they do.. then for #s sake, just get over it and get on with your life... stop being a victim..

Someone who gets it.

The OP is talking about a criminal act once done to her and using that experience to try and say it's all men or some sort of generation thing that is one sided to men.

It makes zero sense.

a reply to: SR1TX

hey there:
so much for your reading comprehension skills. I'm not saying any such thing, at all. I'm just relating what my experience as a woman in this world has been. Make of that wha† you will.

But I will no longer reply to you here. It is a waste of time and energy for both of us.
tetra

a reply to: tetra50

Its not even remotely irreparable tetra I'd go so far as to say no damage was done whatsoever.

This topic, along with a few key others, are very difficult. Period. And I think that, overall, we are never really equipped with the introspective tools to really deal with the interactions. At least, I never was. Instead, it always seemed like the unspoken lesson was to completely avoid that introspection and focus on changing everyone else. In the end though, and perhaps I am wrong, the only thing we can effectively control, change, and grow is ourselves.

So, I think that is the primary lesson for all of us in many of these topics: even if there is extensive, egregious behavior afoot, we need to be able to consider that we may be lumping events together that simply don't belong and only serve to obfuscate the truly serious situations. Without that, it seems far too easy to erroneously attribute neutral, innocent behavior with the negative. Or just as problematic, become dismissive of the truly negative because of the overly sensitive reactions.

From what I've seen, the longer that specific cycle goes on, the more tenuous and specious both "sides" become. All in an effort to either show "its everywhere!" or "that never happens!"

I'd say the two biggest problem areas are this topic, and probably racism. I'm just not sure we will actually get anywhere until we not only learn our reactions and perceptions create a whole set of its own problems, but actively and continuously learn how to grow and deal with it.

Wow, Tet... touched a nerve from the first few pages I've read.

Good, timely topic that needs some parsing... and of course sex driven men (as we all, sadly or not, are to varying degrees) will be threatened by close examination of power dynamics and animal instinct vs higher reasoning.

It is a complex discussion and both sexes have some culpability in carrying on some sick dynamics, but the Western male culture has been generally forgiving of poor behavior ...and that needs to finally stop (Tho some other cultures around the world are far, far, far worse, of course! At least Westerners can address this!).

There will be messy over reactions on both sides... but in reality, there's only the human side and a re-balancing of societal power will be a great, long overdue reset.

I am painfully aware that male support of women will be seen by some as a scam to ingratiate oneself and get some nooky... but hopefully men can face the guilt and just start reprogramming themselves to generally respect women as other sentient creatures worthy of equal respect despite the scary power some have by being desirable.

Sexual dynamics are chaotic and complex... and really simple at the same time, but we really, really need a reboot so women can operate in society without constant creepy scrutiny, bias and in the too common extremes, physical assault. It doesn't seem that difficult to achieve.

I cannot think of one female I have known who wasn't at the least the object of some scary, physical attention ... and most have been actually violently assaulted and/or raped... many by trusted male friends and close family members. It is a good thing people are talking about it ... at least this month.

*forgot the important, repeated caveat that many to most guys are already respectful and sickened by the behavior of a minority, of course.
I wonder, though, how common an underlying condescending attitude towards women is. I've noticed this in, generally, older men... a kindness, but tinged with an attitude like women need protection and special considerations due to some inherent aspects of their sex.

I guess what I'm saying is men can do better ... and so can women! Hopefully we publicly strive for that. I wish it had re- started in earnest with something other than non-vetted public shaming ... but it seems like a good thing, so far.