Why the Dossier may be the most serious political scandal the US has ever seen.

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

Yes its hilarious how partisanship can cause people to say the dumberst things.

CNN and Motherjones are now alt right and shouldnt be viewed.

Unbelievable.

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

I never said CNN or Mother Jones were alt-right. Yes they are reporting it as well. That's not what I meant.

It's only the right wing sites that are painting this to be "the biggest political scandal the U.S. has ever seen".

A sentiment the OP echoes. And is patently false.

And for the record, I don't read or watch CNN or whatever Mother Jones is. Though I do find it funny how people on the right are now holding up CNN as truthful the moment they report a story that may be damaging to the DNC.

originally posted by: muzzleflash
a reply to: Grambler

I don't think it's that big of a deal.

I mean sure, if you live in lala land where everything you believe must be first confirmed by the TV set, than yeah, I bet this looks like a big scandal.

But if you can think for yourself and realize the type of corruption involved with the government, like it's collusion with pharmaceutical corporations or the military contractors, or how it runs the illegal drug market, or how it covers up any real X-files and we never find out anything, you'll realize this Russia Hillary thing is small potatoes and serves as a mere distraction from really important scandals, like the sex slave trade or similar.

In fact Hillary is so small potatoes that they'd plot to sacrifice her just to keep the small minded average people who need a TV to formulate a belief system occupied and pacified. It's a pacifier for the children, essentially. Hillary is a no body and meaningless in the grand scheme of global dominion. She is made out to look like a power player but she's not, she's just a political puppet used by the real powers that be hiding in the shadows.

Excellent comment there Muzzle!!

You are absolutely correct in the overall scheme of things, yet I do think there is more to this then meets the eye.

I like to believe that there is a very intelligent network that is working against all those horrific problems you described and they understand how to do so incrementally while watching their opponents reaction.

We continue to see the attempts of the deep state to use the media to keep people distracted, fearful and angry. However it seems to be backfiring IMO. Finally the most public face of the deep state, currently Hilldog has lost credibility. Ironically enough they have been trying to bring back the Bush's to polish those turds, and yet with everything they try to do a scandal comes up that gets closer to the truth.

I think the big moves are happening off screen, for in truth the masses do not really need to know who the power behind the curtain is, part of the benefit of their obscurity is that they can simply be taken out, one way or the other and no one would ever know, we would just notice slight changes in the balance of power, between we the people and the centralized power of the elite.

I think that the level of hackitivty that we are unaware of have a lot of people by the proverbial balls and we have barely even seen it get going!

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: underwerks

Nice spin!!!

Notice the article that you cited was from today after noon, saying that just today that the FBI responded that they will finally comply.

Notice my thread was made well before noon today.

For you to try to spin that I was somehow misleading is ridiculous.

Now that the FBI is going to respond, and if they admit they did use the dossier as part of the justifications for Fisa warrants, then surely you will admit that this is outrageous, right?

I said at the end of the post it's breaking news, so being wrong on that point can be forgiven.

It's only outrageous if the dossier was the sole reason for the FISA warrant, like you're implying in this thread. Otherwise, it's just another small piece of evidence in a much larger case.

Just to recap on to how some people are excusing this.

The points from the OP.

1. No defense of the hypocrisy of the dems screaming about Trump jr. Only some mention of if repubs say it wasnt a big deal for Trump jr, why should it be now; which is in fact and admission that the dems are at least just as guilty of collusion. This also ignore the fact that unlike with trump jr., money was given for the dirt, and dirt was actually obtained.

2. No mention whatsoever of Hillarys team lying about funding this.

3. No mention of how if Russians are trying to mess with the US, getting this info from the dossier on them is the most direct way they actually could mess with the US. In other words, the people paying for this dossier facilitated the most proven Russian interference.

Completely ignored.

4. People have argued as I admit in the OP that there is no definitive proof that this dossier was used for fisa warrants. However there are sources claiming this such as motherjones and CNN, which was bizarrely written off as alt right sources.

Then some people have said that there is nothing wrong with using this for a fissa warrant, ignoring all of the reasons in the OP as to how that destroys our entire system of governance.

5. No mention of why the FBI was stonewalling congress, or why them paying steele is an outrage.

Thankfully it seems the FBI is now going to comply.

Other than that, there has been the predictable deflections that Trump is evil so none of this matters, etc.

It is frightening how many people can just act like this isn't a big deal.

a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.

a reply to: Grambler

Trump Himself says that the dossier was commissioned by a Republican, and he thinks he knows who it was. Look for vicious attacks against a prominent member of the traditional Republican establishment. Meanwhile, there was nothing illegal about paying a private detective to get dirt on an opponent. It probably goes back to Jefferson and Adams. As for this being the worst political scandal... just how old are you? Heck, if you are even a teenager you can remember how scandalous it was that a Muslim from Kenya was elected president!

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: underwerks

Nice spin!!!

Notice the article that you cited was from today after noon, saying that just today that the FBI responded that they will finally comply.

Notice my thread was made well before noon today.

For you to try to spin that I was somehow misleading is ridiculous.

Now that the FBI is going to respond, and if they admit they did use the dossier as part of the justifications for Fisa warrants, then surely you will admit that this is outrageous, right?

I said at the end of the post it's breaking news, so being wrong on that point can be forgiven.

It's only outrageous if the dossier was the sole reason for the FISA warrant, like you're implying in this thread. Otherwise, it's just another small piece of evidence in a much larger case.

No. If the dossier was used at all it is outrageous, period.

For all of the reasons I outlined.

Again, this would lead to a sitaution as follows.

Trump goes to fisa and says he has evidence that Hillarys team has met with russians, including her husband, the podestas, and others. He has evidence that they have taken money for the foundation from Russians, and failed to disclose properly.

And he also paid foreign agents for a dossier that says Hillary was going to be a puppet for putin, and committed all sorts of other crimes.

therefore, because those other things are prven true, Trump should now be allowed to survey all of her team, should be able to spread this info far and wide, and it will be ok for it to be leaked to the media.

The dossier was paid for propaganda by the targets political opponent, and relied on the same russians that are claimed to be meddlers and lairs that Trump was accused of working with. If this document was used at all, it is corruption of the highest level.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.

If Hillary did anything she should be punished!

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to see the right wingers here say that whatever Hillary did doesn't subtract from what Trump might have done..

I'll wait.

a reply to: Grambler

CNN is saying the Dossier was the creation of a "rogue" element of the Clinton campaign. She didn't know about it until a few months ago.

They've pretty much dismissed it.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.

I'm not entirely on the right, but I sincerely hope they do nothing to her specifically and would like to go on the record now with my endorsement for her candidacy for president in 2020.

a reply to: underwerks

Not quite sure at whom your diatribe about "people on the right," is aimed, I'm a registered independent and did not vote for Trump.

Personally, I prefer original, primary sources but when those are absent will make due with what is available. CNN and Mother Jones are the relevant places in which the dossier is discussed; MJ being the very first mention of it anywhere online, and CNN being the report indicating that it was indeed used to help procure the FISA warrant.

The same warrant which had been denied twice before.

Now, we don't know what else was used in order to overcome whatever reluctance the court had in issuing the warrant, but the fact remains that the dossier was a part of what was added to gain the warrant's issuance.

And as the OP mentions, after not having done so for some time, the FBI only today (thank you for bringing that report btw) agreed to comply with previously made requests.

But even if it can be shown that the dossier was used to help push the warrant through, you still don't think there's any problem with politically motivated opposition research being used to further insinuate the authority of the nations intelligence community into the electoral process.

So the only purpose you have in this thread is to defend that stance or to downplay the concerns others have that this is a direction in which government should not be going.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Grambler

Trump Himself says that the dossier was commissioned by a Republican, and he thinks he knows who it was. Look for vicious attacks against a prominent member of the traditional Republican establishment. Meanwhile, there was nothing illegal about paying a private detective to get dirt on an opponent. It probably goes back to Jefferson and Adams. As for this being the worst political scandal... just how old are you? Heck, if you are even a teenager you can remember how scandalous it was that a Muslim from Kenya was elected president!

First again, if a republican opponent of Trump paid for it too, then they too are guilty.

Second, see jadedandcynacils source from last page that shows steele wasn't brought on until the dems paid for it.

Third, Steele relied on Russian sources, which proves points 1 and 3 on the OP.

Lastly, name me one opposition research from a candidate ever that was used to obtain secret fisa warrants against an opponent.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.

If Hillary did anything she should be punished!

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to see the right wingers here say that whatever Hillary did doesn't subtract from what Trump might have done..

I'll wait.

Fail.

I've been on record for months saying that if Trump is guilty, fry his butt.

But it is nice for a leftist to actually say that they want Hillary punished if she did anything wrong.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: underwerks

Nice spin!!!

Notice the article that you cited was from today after noon, saying that just today that the FBI responded that they will finally comply.

Notice my thread was made well before noon today.

For you to try to spin that I was somehow misleading is ridiculous.

Now that the FBI is going to respond, and if they admit they did use the dossier as part of the justifications for Fisa warrants, then surely you will admit that this is outrageous, right?

It's only outrageous if the dossier was the sole reason for the FISA warrant

Interesting. Someone on the left just admitted the dossier was illegitimate evidence.

Kudos to you, underwerks.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.

If Hillary did anything she should be punished!

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to see the right wingers here say that whatever Hillary did doesn't subtract from what Trump might have done..

I'll wait.

I have said that on like 4 posts in this thread. I made it quite clear.

So what are you talking about?

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.

I have been saying that over and over. Now, please return the favor and say: if Donald Trump knowingly laundered Russian money or knowingly accepted help from the Russian government during the campaign, he should be removed from office and punished to the full extent of the law.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: Grambler

CNN is saying the Dossier was the creation of a "rogue" element of the Clinton campaign. She didn't know about it until a few months ago.

They've pretty much dismissed it.

Ah Hillary and Obama. they here about everything that is damaging to them "on the news"

What a joke.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: underwerks

Nice spin!!!

Notice the article that you cited was from today after noon, saying that just today that the FBI responded that they will finally comply.

Notice my thread was made well before noon today.

For you to try to spin that I was somehow misleading is ridiculous.

Now that the FBI is going to respond, and if they admit they did use the dossier as part of the justifications for Fisa warrants, then surely you will admit that this is outrageous, right?

I said at the end of the post it's breaking news, so being wrong on that point can be forgiven.

It's only outrageous if the dossier was the sole reason for the FISA warrant, like you're implying in this thread. Otherwise, it's just another small piece of evidence in a much larger case.

No. If the dossier was used at all it is outrageous, period.

For all of the reasons I outlined.

Again, this would lead to a sitaution as follows.

Trump goes to fisa and says he has evidence that Hillarys team has met with russians, including her husband, the podestas, and others. He has evidence that they have taken money for the foundation from Russians, and failed to disclose properly.

And he also paid foreign agents for a dossier that says Hillary was going to be a puppet for putin, and committed all sorts of other crimes.

therefore, because those other things are prven true, Trump should now be allowed to survey all of her team, should be able to spread this info far and wide, and it will be ok for it to be leaked to the media.

The dossier was paid for propaganda by the targets political opponent, and relied on the same russians that are claimed to be meddlers and lairs that Trump was accused of working with. If this document was used at all, it is corruption of the highest level.

So, you're also assuming Obama had a personal hand in paying for the dossier? Everything I've read puts it directly on the DNC and maybe Clinton.

Where's evidence of Obamas direct involvement? If what you're saying is correct, then whatever the GOP is guilty of lays directly at Trumps feet as well. Going by the same logic used to blame Obama here.

Or does that only apply to the left?

Awesome thread as usual Grambler.

I will freely admit that I am not as up to speed on this dossier as many are, specifically because I considered an unsourced report on allegations of the private sex life of someone about as useless an exercise in stoopidity I can imagine. I happen to have a severe allergy to stoopid, and I didn't have an Epi-Pen handy.

However, it seems this particular stoopid backfired and has become important, as you have pointed out.

So my contribution will be a little more generic than others'. I do want to thank the posters who have helped fill me in on the sordid details of hos this dossier came about. As I understand it, the dossier was compiled by UK agents based on Russian intel, for an as-yet-unnamed Republican, specifically to discredit Trump. At some point, the Republican stopped funding it, and the Clinton campaign/DNC picked up where the Republican left off. There are indications that the information contained in the dossier, which was never properly vetted, was used to obtain FISA warrants against American citizens.

Is that about the gist of the matter?

My perspective is that this is a continuation of the liberal approach to government, and fits well with the established modus operandi we have seen played out. Specifically, the liberal approach is a series of shortcuts and projection of one side's own actions onto the opposition.

• Years of calling anyone who dared disagree with a political opinion various emotionally charged terms in order to discredit them personally rather than discredit their opinion, the exact definition of bullying, gave way to accusations of bullying by those who supported Trump... even leading up to various reports of street violence against anyone who dared wear a MAGA hat in public.
  
  
• Accusations of Trump supporters being violent, when in fact the vast majority of violence at Trump rallies was instigated by protestors, not supporters.
  
  
• Condemnation of Trump for being pro-Nazi or pro-white supremacist, when in fact Trump openly and forcefully has denounced the two groups on multiple occasions... yet William Quinn, KKK Grand Wizard, is a lifelong friend of the Clintons, as is (was?) Robert Byrd, another KKK Grand Wizard who actually served as a Democratic Senator. Not a peep about them.
  
  
• Condemnation of Trump for "sabotaging" Obamacare, when the truth is that Obamacare was and is failing on its own because it is unsustainable.
  
  
• Concern over the fact that a lifelong opponent of cannabis legalization, Jeff Sessions, was appointed Attorney General, yet dismissal over the fact that Obama and the DNC-led Congress failed to legalize it once and for all.
  
  
• Condemnation of Trump for having no compassionate toward DACA recipients, when in fact DACA was illegally implemented and would have been struck down by the Federal courts... Trump has actually stated he wants a reasonable permanent solution to allowing DACA recipients to live here legally, preventing future Presidents from having the power to do what he is being accused of wanting to do. This could and should have been resolved by legislation by previous Democratic-led Congresses, but instead the shortcut of Executive Order legislation was used.

Now that's not to derail the thread, but rather to set up a backdrop for my observation as it concerns the dossier. The modus operandi is clear: projection and shortcuts. Therefore, based on the fact that Robert Mueller has spent what? 8 months? investigating a claim that Trump has been in direct collusion with Russia in order to destabilize our elections (I might add without any visible success yet), I see it as reasonable to consider that this, too may have been a projection. Therefore it is logical to make assumptions that the DNC and previous administration were not only complicent, but active in the abuse that they now accuse their opponents of.

TheRedneck