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Why the Dossier may be the most serious political scandal the US has ever seen.

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posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 12:54 PM
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a reply to: DBCowboy


I've been called everything and labeled as everything by many here.

Considering that what once was conservatism is now moderate... what once was liberalism is now moderate... what once was fascism is now conservative... what once was communist is now liberal... what once was socialist is now progressive... aw, heck, I'm getting confused myself now...

Just combine the two. I hereby dub you a "light-winger."



TheRedneck




posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 12:54 PM
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originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: underwerks

Nice spin!!!

Notice the article that you cited was from today after noon, saying that just today that the FBI responded that they will finally comply.

Notice my thread was made well before noon today.

For you to try to spin that I was somehow misleading is ridiculous.

Now that the FBI is going to respond, and if they admit they did use the dossier as part of the justifications for Fisa warrants, then surely you will admit that this is outrageous, right?


I said at the end of the post it's breaking news, so being wrong on that point can be forgiven.

It's only outrageous if the dossier was the sole reason for the FISA warrant, like you're implying in this thread. Otherwise, it's just another small piece of evidence in a much larger case.


No. If the dossier was used at all it is outrageous, period.

For all of the reasons I outlined.

Again, this would lead to a sitaution as follows.

Trump goes to fisa and says he has evidence that Hillarys team has met with russians, including her husband, the podestas, and others. He has evidence that they have taken money for the foundation from Russians, and failed to disclose properly.

And he also paid foreign agents for a dossier that says Hillary was going to be a puppet for putin, and committed all sorts of other crimes.

therefore, because those other things are prven true, Trump should now be allowed to survey all of her team, should be able to spread this info far and wide, and it will be ok for it to be leaked to the media.

The dossier was paid for propaganda by the targets political opponent, and relied on the same russians that are claimed to be meddlers and lairs that Trump was accused of working with. If this document was used at all, it is corruption of the highest level.

So, you're also assuming Obama had a personal hand in paying for the dossier? Everything I've read puts it directly on the DNC and maybe Clinton.

Where's evidence of Obamas direct involvement? If what you're saying is correct, then whatever the GOP is guilty of lays directly at Trumps feet as well. Going by the same logic used to blame Obama here.

Or does that only apply to the left?


I think you are confused.

I am not saying that Obama paid for the dossier (however it appears the FBI was going to pay steele but thats another can of worms).

I am saying the person he was endorsing for President did. Then he took that dossier, and used it to attack his political opponent by getting fisa warrants.

So no, I am not blaming Obama or accusing him of paying for the dossier. I am saying he used what he knew was a paid opposition research to a foreign agent who used russian intel to be allowed to survey his political rival.

Isn't it just as reasonable to assume the FBI took the initiative and used the dossier as part of the evidence for the FISA warrant, on their own, without Obama directing them to do it?

That's what the FBI normally does, so I'm wondering what the evidence is that Obama was involved, other than just naturally assuming he was involved because you don't like him.


No that is not reasonable.

There is absolutely zero chance that the FBI was getting fisa warrants about the nominee for President of one of the major political parties without consulting with the president.

This is further buttressed by the fact that Obama went out of his way to spread this info as far as possible, even to foreign allies.

Are you starting to see just how corrupt this is?

Why is there zero chance? I really want to understand. Why is it assumed that "There is absolutely zero chance that the FBI was getting fisa warrants about the nominee for President of one of the major political parties without consulting with the president." That's what the FBI normally would have done.

Why would the FBI consult Obama on this? Keep in mind to me Obama is nothing more than a different face slapped on a sick body, and isn't some globalist vampire that only comes out at night to feed on conservatives.

Surely you don't believe the surveillance of the Trump group only started when Trump was confirmed as a candidate?



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 12:54 PM
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a reply to: theantediluvian

That and the fact that there were FISA warrants on Manafort before the dossier was compiled!



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 12:56 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

I don't know what is driving the left to want to fight you on this. Stupidity, hubris, apathy?

This isn't a partisan issue at all, it's an issue that we as a country need to stop in it's tracks and make damn sure NEVER happens again. Perhaps they will pull their heads out of their asses soon and realize the impact of this bombshell.

I think you are spot on with your concern. I just hope enough honest people see it as well.



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 12:57 PM
link   

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: DBCowboy


I've been called everything and labeled as everything by many here.

Considering that what once was conservatism is now moderate... what once was liberalism is now moderate... what once was fascism is now conservative... what once was communist is now liberal... what once was socialist is now progressive... aw, heck, I'm getting confused myself now...

Just combine the two. I hereby dub you a "light-winger."



TheRedneck


HAHAHAHAHA

Light-Winger. . .

Same great taste, half the taxes.




posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:00 PM
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originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: Grambler

CNN is saying the Dossier was the creation of a "rogue" element of the Clinton campaign. She didn't know about it until a few months ago.

They've pretty much dismissed it.




John Podesta (even if by making just the suggestion) I'd wager. We know how he had a hard on to make examples of leakers, so this wouldn't be beneath him.



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:02 PM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.




If Hillary did anything she should be punished!

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to see the right wingers here say that whatever Hillary did doesn't subtract from what Trump might have done..

I'll wait.



Fail.

I've been on record for months saying that if Trump is guilty, fry his butt.

But it is nice for a leftist to actually say that they want Hillary punished if she did anything wrong.

Are you a right winger? You constantly call yourself a "classic liberal", but you assume I'm talking about you when I say "right winger"...

Hmmmm.


The problem I see is that the left is so immersed in identity politics, that to condemn Hillary is paramount to condemning themselves, hence a level of irrationality often exists.


Funny, I've condemned Hillary on several occasions here, as have more than a few other left leaning posters.

What I haven't seen is anyone in the Trump camp say the same about Trumps Russian involvement. When it comes to Trump, it's just a made up liberal-media conspiracy. And if it did happen, Obama did it worse..




posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:02 PM
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a reply to: theantediluvian

But it wasn't just manafort. For example, i read on one of the threads linked here that the original claim was that it was used for a warrant on Carter page.

Plus we don't know what other warrants there were.

Again,my intention is that if this dossier was used at all for a fisa warrant, everything I outlined in the OP is true.



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:03 PM
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originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Grambler

Not one of those claims makes any sense whatsoever.


So you think bama was unaware that the FBI was seeking Fisa warrants on people in Trumps campaign.

Sure.



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:04 PM
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a reply to: underwerks




Surely you don't believe the surveillance of the Trump group only started when Trump was confirmed as a candidate?

James Comey testified in front of congress under oath that the "counter intelligence" portion of the "russia" investigation started in JULY of 2016.

So yes, it did only start when trump got the gop nomination.



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:04 PM
link   

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: theantediluvian

That and the fact that there were FISA warrants on Manafort before the dossier was compiled!


This is a half-truth. Emphasis mine:


A secret order authorized by the court that handles the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) began after Manafort became the subject of an FBI investigation that began in 2014. It centered on work done by a group of Washington consulting firms for Ukraine's former ruling party, the sources told CNN. The surveillance was discontinued at some point last year (2016) for lack of evidence, according to one of the sources. The FBI then restarted the surveillance after obtaining a new FISA warrant that extended at least into early this year.


So Manafort was under investigation long before he became part of Trump's campaing. They had to discontinue their surveillance of Manafort in 2016 because of lack of evidence, then after this bogus dossier started circulating, suddenly they were able to get a new FISA warrant approved. If that document was used as part of the justification to get the new warrant, this is a huge scandal.
edit on 26 10 17 by face23785 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:04 PM
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originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.




If Hillary did anything she should be punished!

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to see the right wingers here say that whatever Hillary did doesn't subtract from what Trump might have done..

I'll wait.



Fail.

I've been on record for months saying that if Trump is guilty, fry his butt.

But it is nice for a leftist to actually say that they want Hillary punished if she did anything wrong.

Are you a right winger? You constantly call yourself a "classic liberal", but you assume I'm talking about you when I say "right winger"...

Hmmmm.


The problem I see is that the left is so immersed in identity politics, that to condemn Hillary is paramount to condemning themselves, hence a level of irrationality often exists.


Funny, I've condemned Hillary on several occasions here, as have more than a few other left leaning posters.

What I haven't seen is anyone in the Trump camp say the same about Trumps Russian involvement. When it comes to Trump, it's just a made up liberal-media conspiracy. And if it did happen, Obama did it worse..



Only because if "Drumpf" is so dumb, it shouldn't be too hard to find evidence. If he did, then yes. But I'm not holding my breath for another 10 months.



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:07 PM
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originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: underwerks

Nice spin!!!

Notice the article that you cited was from today after noon, saying that just today that the FBI responded that they will finally comply.

Notice my thread was made well before noon today.

For you to try to spin that I was somehow misleading is ridiculous.

Now that the FBI is going to respond, and if they admit they did use the dossier as part of the justifications for Fisa warrants, then surely you will admit that this is outrageous, right?


I said at the end of the post it's breaking news, so being wrong on that point can be forgiven.

It's only outrageous if the dossier was the sole reason for the FISA warrant, like you're implying in this thread. Otherwise, it's just another small piece of evidence in a much larger case.


No. If the dossier was used at all it is outrageous, period.

For all of the reasons I outlined.

Again, this would lead to a sitaution as follows.

Trump goes to fisa and says he has evidence that Hillarys team has met with russians, including her husband, the podestas, and others. He has evidence that they have taken money for the foundation from Russians, and failed to disclose properly.

And he also paid foreign agents for a dossier that says Hillary was going to be a puppet for putin, and committed all sorts of other crimes.

therefore, because those other things are prven true, Trump should now be allowed to survey all of her team, should be able to spread this info far and wide, and it will be ok for it to be leaked to the media.

The dossier was paid for propaganda by the targets political opponent, and relied on the same russians that are claimed to be meddlers and lairs that Trump was accused of working with. If this document was used at all, it is corruption of the highest level.

So, you're also assuming Obama had a personal hand in paying for the dossier? Everything I've read puts it directly on the DNC and maybe Clinton.

Where's evidence of Obamas direct involvement? If what you're saying is correct, then whatever the GOP is guilty of lays directly at Trumps feet as well. Going by the same logic used to blame Obama here.

Or does that only apply to the left?


I think you are confused.

I am not saying that Obama paid for the dossier (however it appears the FBI was going to pay steele but thats another can of worms).

I am saying the person he was endorsing for President did. Then he took that dossier, and used it to attack his political opponent by getting fisa warrants.

So no, I am not blaming Obama or accusing him of paying for the dossier. I am saying he used what he knew was a paid opposition research to a foreign agent who used russian intel to be allowed to survey his political rival.

Isn't it just as reasonable to assume the FBI took the initiative and used the dossier as part of the evidence for the FISA warrant, on their own, without Obama directing them to do it?

That's what the FBI normally does, so I'm wondering what the evidence is that Obama was involved, other than just naturally assuming he was involved because you don't like him.


No that is not reasonable.

There is absolutely zero chance that the FBI was getting fisa warrants about the nominee for President of one of the major political parties without consulting with the president.

This is further buttressed by the fact that Obama went out of his way to spread this info as far as possible, even to foreign allies.

Are you starting to see just how corrupt this is?

Why is there zero chance? I really want to understand. Why is it assumed that "There is absolutely zero chance that the FBI was getting fisa warrants about the nominee for President of one of the major political parties without consulting with the president." That's what the FBI normally would have done.

Why would the FBI consult Obama on this? Keep in mind to me Obama is nothing more than a different face slapped on a sick body, and isn't some globalist vampire that only comes out at night to feed on conservatives.

Surely you don't believe the surveillance of the Trump group only started when Trump was confirmed as a candidate?


Yes, I fully believe that it is ridiculous to argue that the FBI did not inform Obama they were trying to get fisa warrants for people on trumps team.

And yes, we know these warrants were sought and obtained after Trump announced he was running.



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:09 PM
link   

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Grambler

I don't know what is driving the left to want to fight you on this. Stupidity, hubris, apathy?

This isn't a partisan issue at all, it's an issue that we as a country need to stop in it's tracks and make damn sure NEVER happens again. Perhaps they will pull their heads out of their asses soon and realize the impact of this bombshell.

I think you are spot on with your concern. I just hope enough honest people see it as well.


I know its sad.

I have been on record saying I want the Mueller investigation to go on, I believe Manafort probably broke the law, I think its worth looking into if a trump hired firm contacted wikileaks about illegally obtained emails, etc.

Yet here we have people on the left (and I know its not everyone on the left) making excuses for a political party paying foreign agents for dirt on opponents, and then using that dirt for fisa warrants to spy on those opponents.

Its absolutely insane.



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:11 PM
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The problem is, they tried to cover it all up. The FEC Complaints are just the beginning.



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:11 PM
link   

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: theantediluvian

That and the fact that there were FISA warrants on Manafort before the dossier was compiled!


This is a half-truth. Emphasis mine:


A secret order authorized by the court that handles the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) began after Manafort became the subject of an FBI investigation that began in 2014. It centered on work done by a group of Washington consulting firms for Ukraine's former ruling party, the sources told CNN. The surveillance was discontinued at some point last year (2016) for lack of evidence, according to one of the sources. The FBI then restarted the surveillance after obtaining a new FISA warrant that extended at least into early this year.


So Manafort was under investigation long before he became part of Trump's campaing. They had to discontinue their surveillance of Manafort in 2016 because of lack of evidence, then after this bogus dossier started circulating, suddenly they were able to get a new FISA warrant approved. If that document was used as part of the justification to get the new warrant, this is a huge scandal.


Yes, and on a side note, when the original 2014 warrant was issued, who was manafort working with?

The Podesta group.



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:13 PM
link   

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
The problem is, they tried to cover it all up. The FEC Complaints are just the beginning.


Yes that is the second point I was referncing in the OP.

This has been totally ignored.

If it was no big deal as everyone is saying, why did Hillarys team lie about it for a year, and why is everyone (New DNC leadership, Debbie wasserman, Hillary, etc.) trying to claim they didnt know if it.

Clearly they still think its a bigger deal than some people here are letting on.



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:16 PM
link   

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.




If Hillary did anything she should be punished!

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to see the right wingers here say that whatever Hillary did doesn't subtract from what Trump might have done..

I'll wait.



Fail.

I've been on record for months saying that if Trump is guilty, fry his butt.

But it is nice for a leftist to actually say that they want Hillary punished if she did anything wrong.

Are you a right winger? You constantly call yourself a "classic liberal", but you assume I'm talking about you when I say "right winger"...

Hmmmm.


The problem I see is that the left is so immersed in identity politics, that to condemn Hillary is paramount to condemning themselves, hence a level of irrationality often exists.


Funny, I've condemned Hillary on several occasions here, as have more than a few other left leaning posters.

What I haven't seen is anyone in the Trump camp say the same about Trumps Russian involvement. When it comes to Trump, it's just a made up liberal-media conspiracy. And if it did happen, Obama did it worse..



Only because if "Drumpf" is so dumb, it shouldn't be too hard to find evidence. If he did, then yes. But I'm not holding my breath for another 10 months.

Why do you think we're seeing all these hyperbolic news stories and threads, filled with nothing but assumptions and zero evidence of anything?

Distraction. Nothing more. I think a lot of people in our government are privy to a lot of facts we don't have. Obviously the Trump people are afraid of something right now, which is why the Trump-propaganda machine is currently working at full speed.

And as someone familiar with investigations, an investigation doesn't grind on for almost a year without any results. Mueller had to show some kind of evidence to get the funding approved for his last round of high priced lawyers he hired to help him on the case.

The fact that it's taking so long is obviously starting to unnerve the Trump camp. As it should. While Trump may be an idiot, the people he surrounds himself with aren't.



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:17 PM
link   

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: underwerks

Nice spin!!!

Notice the article that you cited was from today after noon, saying that just today that the FBI responded that they will finally comply.

Notice my thread was made well before noon today.

For you to try to spin that I was somehow misleading is ridiculous.

Now that the FBI is going to respond, and if they admit they did use the dossier as part of the justifications for Fisa warrants, then surely you will admit that this is outrageous, right?


I said at the end of the post it's breaking news, so being wrong on that point can be forgiven.

It's only outrageous if the dossier was the sole reason for the FISA warrant, like you're implying in this thread. Otherwise, it's just another small piece of evidence in a much larger case.


No. If the dossier was used at all it is outrageous, period.

For all of the reasons I outlined.

Again, this would lead to a sitaution as follows.

Trump goes to fisa and says he has evidence that Hillarys team has met with russians, including her husband, the podestas, and others. He has evidence that they have taken money for the foundation from Russians, and failed to disclose properly.

And he also paid foreign agents for a dossier that says Hillary was going to be a puppet for putin, and committed all sorts of other crimes.

therefore, because those other things are prven true, Trump should now be allowed to survey all of her team, should be able to spread this info far and wide, and it will be ok for it to be leaked to the media.

The dossier was paid for propaganda by the targets political opponent, and relied on the same russians that are claimed to be meddlers and lairs that Trump was accused of working with. If this document was used at all, it is corruption of the highest level.

So, you're also assuming Obama had a personal hand in paying for the dossier? Everything I've read puts it directly on the DNC and maybe Clinton.

Where's evidence of Obamas direct involvement? If what you're saying is correct, then whatever the GOP is guilty of lays directly at Trumps feet as well. Going by the same logic used to blame Obama here.

Or does that only apply to the left?


I think you are confused.

I am not saying that Obama paid for the dossier (however it appears the FBI was going to pay steele but thats another can of worms).

I am saying the person he was endorsing for President did. Then he took that dossier, and used it to attack his political opponent by getting fisa warrants.

So no, I am not blaming Obama or accusing him of paying for the dossier. I am saying he used what he knew was a paid opposition research to a foreign agent who used russian intel to be allowed to survey his political rival.

Isn't it just as reasonable to assume the FBI took the initiative and used the dossier as part of the evidence for the FISA warrant, on their own, without Obama directing them to do it?

That's what the FBI normally does, so I'm wondering what the evidence is that Obama was involved, other than just naturally assuming he was involved because you don't like him.


No that is not reasonable.

There is absolutely zero chance that the FBI was getting fisa warrants about the nominee for President of one of the major political parties without consulting with the president.

This is further buttressed by the fact that Obama went out of his way to spread this info as far as possible, even to foreign allies.

Are you starting to see just how corrupt this is?

Why is there zero chance? I really want to understand. Why is it assumed that "There is absolutely zero chance that the FBI was getting fisa warrants about the nominee for President of one of the major political parties without consulting with the president." That's what the FBI normally would have done.

Why would the FBI consult Obama on this? Keep in mind to me Obama is nothing more than a different face slapped on a sick body, and isn't some globalist vampire that only comes out at night to feed on conservatives.

Surely you don't believe the surveillance of the Trump group only started when Trump was confirmed as a candidate?


Yes, I fully believe that it is ridiculous to argue that the FBI did not inform Obama they were trying to get fisa warrants for people on trumps team.


Why? Why do you automatically assume Obama was involved?



posted on Oct, 26 2017 @ 01:18 PM
link   
a reply to: Grambler




Yes, and on a side note, when the original 2014 warrant was issued, who was manafort working with? The Podesta group.

When the dems figure that one out they will be pretty angry.



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