who decides what is disrespectful?

a reply to: Metallicus Maybe they are doing it in respect of the nation and for what it stands for, freedom. Freedom to do what they feel is right. Maybe a kneel is them defending the flag and nation but in a different light. Defending the freedom of speech. Honoring those who have died in the name of it.

a reply to: TinySickTears

the the problem with the people who claim that it is free speech is that there is no government entity restricting their free speech. They have the freedom to speak and and the freedom of speech as much as they want. The right to free speech means that the government cannot tell you what you can and cannot say. No one is stopping these people from saying it what they want to say. What we're saying is that if it didn't want to be disrespectful that it reflects badly on their NFL team and the owners have the right to fire them if they so choose or to fine them or whatever.

It is disrespectful to our flag and our veterans and our country for them to kneel during the anthem.

They have the right to kneel if they want to as a form of Free Speech but they will have to suffer the consequences and if the team that they represent chooses to make those consequences of fine or firing or suspension or whatever no one can give them crap for that because that's their prerogative as the owner of the team.


Jaden

a reply to: intrepid

Yes it is.

Where some would disagree is the platform used to call attention to the problem. That is very much in the eye of the beholder.

Well, some guy a while back decided to make the flag represent the troops, freedom and liberty. No one today decided what it means, they just parrot what they've been taught by the state.

To a family living in the ME over the past 15+ years the U.S. flag probably stands for bombs, gunfire, civilians being killed and terrorism.

No one decides what a symbol means to me personally, it's like telling someone that the ink blot test IS what they say it is even though in reality it looks like something different to every individual. Those making a big deal out of this are usually the "anti-establishment" crowd yet they are toeing the line that the establishment has promoted throughout our country's history.

Making people stand for the flag and anthem "or else" is no different than Lil Kim making people bow to him "or else". It's borderline fascist.

a reply to: TinySickTears

I guess it depends on where you are at.
It is a great question with a lot of variables.

Respect is EARNED, anything else in regard to Respect goes by another name and is valueless. Thugs don't earn respect, they purvey fear and intimidation. And are not deserving of respect of any kind. Life has a great deal of fence sitters.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

While I would agree the 'or else' is the future sentiment of a forced pledge,

the people that do pledge for the most part are authentically currently pledging, even if hypocritically.

So the fear is far from fruition at least.

If the NFL wasn’t receiving Billions in tax payer dollars they could burn American flags before the game for all I cared.

originally posted by: Masterjaden


It is disrespectful to our flag and our veterans and our country for them to kneel during the anthem.


Jaden

do you get to decide that it is disrespectful to everyone though?
you dont speak for me because i dont feel like it is disrespectful.
so you are right for you and i am right for me but what gives me the right to decide for you? what gives you the right to decide for me?

and i am not concerned with them being able to legally be fired.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Making people stand for the flag and anthem "or else" is no different than Lil Kim making people bow to him "or else". It's borderline fascist.

im leaning with you on that.

it just seems to me that if a person has to be forced to do something then that something they are doing does not mean #. if it is not genuine then what is the point?
being forced to stand or else...yeah i think that is a slippery one.

right now at this moment the or else is a fine
but what if it heads towards now it is fired
or now there are charges brought

its a dangerous thing

a reply to: TinySickTears

Something we have gotten away from in our crazy, half educated world hell bent on running out logic with emotions: our nation was founded on individual rights. This means there is no single authority for what is moral, what is disrespectful, or what is offensive. Our government has tried to find middle ground in some areas, mostly being guided by religious belief (you can't run around nekkid). In other areas our government has created oppression (prostitution and temperence). But for the most part, we've kept that center concept that each individual can create their own opinion.

It should still be that way. You should be welcome to take offense. I should be welcome to not care. And we both should be welcome to continue on with our days without having to whine about it on social media.

originally posted by: TinySickTears

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Making people stand for the flag and anthem "or else" is no different than Lil Kim making people bow to him "or else". It's borderline fascist.

im leaning with you on that.

it just seems to me that if a person has to be forced to do something then that something they are doing does not mean #. if it is not genuine then what is the point?
being forced to stand or else...yeah i think that is a slippery one.

right now at this moment the or else is a fine
but what if it heads towards now it is fired
or now there are charges brought

its a dangerous thing

I should add: as an employee, you don't have a right to free speech. There are jobs where people are required to stand for 8 hours (bank tellers, convenience store clerks, cooks, wait staff, etc). The NFL is the only place i've seen where employees are believed to have a constitutional right to free speech. Its just not how the world works for the rest of us, where we can be fired for exercising our free speech on Twitter. I've fired people for doing just that on FB, wearing a company uniform, bad mouthing the company, and giving the middle finger (while in that uniform) to managers.

a reply to: TinySickTears You are going to argue with someone that does come to any reason? Well done and I have your back. Odd play though, look forward to this.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The NFL is the only place i've seen where employees are believed to have a constitutional right to free speech.

Allowed.
I don't think the NFL is the only place employees are allowed to express themselves, peacefully.

a reply to: Phage

So players are "employees" and jersies are "company uniforms"?

It's a game. Compare it to any other sport that isn't owned by Capitalism, and it makes perfect sense.

Everywhere else in the world, high class athletes are community leaders, not slaves of the people and corporate interests.

originally posted by: TinySickTears
that is an honest question because i am curious. i have been thinking about this the past couple days with all this crap going on with the NFL players kneeling. a lot of people on here(and everywhere really) are outraged(though i suspect a good deal of it is fake) by these players kneeling. they say it is disrespectful.
lets say for this conversation that it is a fact that it is disrespectful.
how can that be measured though?
who decides that and who is right?

It's a purely subjective measure by the person(s) acting.

As you so ably demonstrate ... "though I suspect a good deal of it is fake" ... we can never know what's in the mind of another. And by 'pretending' to know what's in the mind of another, we we enter the world of fantasy.

Hence the need for common understanding.

Is the action - hurting anyone - in material terms ... no. It's only hurting a class of people who are offended by the action. They can be offended all they want but to act out on such is rather immature.

Personally - I think that it is a very respectful form of protest against police brutality towards people of color. Were I either a football fan or a fan of police violence, I wouldn't let a protest interrupt or high-jack my life in the manner I see going one.

What may be obvious is not obvious to another - if you think about it.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan


I should add: as an employee, you don't have a right to free speech.

which is precisely when i didnt mention how people feel about them being fined or fired. i think that is a separate issue.
i have to behave a certain way at work. i dont love that i have to be that way but i have people that depend on me so i tow the line.

Personally I don't find it disrespectful to kneel during the Anthem. They are still facing the flag and acting respectful in every other way.

I think sitting down and the guy stretching a week or 2 ago is disrespectful. But I am not offended by it. I think those guys are jerk offs and that is just my opinion.

originally posted by: tinner07
Personally I don't find it disrespectful to kneel during the Anthem. They are still facing the flag and acting respectful in every other way.

I think sitting down and the guy stretching a week or 2 ago is disrespectful. But I am not offended by it. I think those guys are jerk offs and that is just my opinion.

what about the dudes using that time to take a piss or buy a beer?
disrespectful

a reply to: Phage

No, but it is among the very, very, very few employers that will allow you to express political views that could be considered controversial.