The Right of the People to Own Weapons Cant be Expunged From The Debate.

a reply to: elysiumfire

If all muslims aren't terrorists, then why are all gun owners subject to gun control, confiscation, banning?

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Agit8dChop

I hope your kids and loved ones never have to suffer like the people in Vegas - even if thats what you need to happen to open your god damn eyes!

You just 'hoped' my kids and loved ones suffer... that makes you no different than the assholes that kill or the other assholes that want to leave me defenseless.

I hope your kids and loved ones never have to suffer like the people in Vegas - even if thats what you need to happen to open your god damn eyes!

Never... I hope they never suffer

Take a moment to think about the families who are grief stricken right now... who are collapsed in agony..

If someone had a spine and had a proper gun debate 20yrs ago this might have never happened!

a reply to: ketsuko
My head wants to explode with the amount of cognitive dissonance. I was using this example today.

ketsuko:

You mean the lawmakers who admit to carrying out mass surveillance on all of us collecting meta data that they claim will help them prevent this stuff?

Yeah, that's em, where were all the gun owners in defence of their privacy. What's the oft' touted claim by gun owners...'I have a gun to defend the Constitution and the nation against all enemies...foreign and domestic.' I must have missed the day when they all rose up to defend against the tyranny of whole scale surveillance.

Gun owners are defending no one but themselves and their families.

DBCowboy :

If all muslims aren't terrorists, then why are all gun owners subject to gun control, confiscation, banning?

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble with your lack of articulation. Are all gun owners actually subject to gun control, because all Muslims are not terrorists?

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Agit8dChop

I know you're smarter than this.

What new law, if there is anything original that hasn't already been codified somewhere at either the local, state, or federal level, will prevent a Columbine, or Las Vegas?

A new law that will suddenly, magically stop crazy people from doing insane things...There's no such thing, as you very well know.

Any law does nothing to stop this sort of horrid occurrences--it only makes a further mockery of the Constitution.

Thats true, the time to change your laws to fix this problem came and went a long time ago.
however, whats changed that will stop someone else going into a gun shop tomorrow and buying a similar arsenal and committing a mirror like crime next week?

You'll never stop it, but you can make it harder and harder for them to commit these horrid acts.

You could then move forward more and look at your advertising and how they glorify weapons. Maybe look at your gun shows, make tighten your carry laws, maybe restrict what type of weapons people can own and what type of ammo can be purchased. Keep going more and look at your health industry your reliance on pharmaceuticals and your education models.

anything is better than nothing...

You know, I think no matter how many guns are banned/outlawed there will always be a percentage of us that have them, and are willing/able to use them.

No matter how many heartstrings pulled, no matter how much Jimmy Kimmel says, completely oblivious or entirely comlplicit to broader perspective...some of us Americans know why we are armed. It's not from fear of fellow citizens I can tell you that.

And when some of you, so ready to trade your freedom for safety, maybe, just maybe see a grander theme you may realize too.

a reply to: Phage

Do they know that?

SuicideKing33:

...some of us Americans know why we are armed. It's not from fear of fellow citizens I can tell you that. When some of you, so ready to trade your freedom for safety, maybe, just maybe see a grander theme you may realize too.

I laugh at the irony of your moniker. May I ask...what do you think is the reason you are armed? If it is not fear from your fellow compatriots, then maybe it is the government? If it is the government, I've looked at their schedule and they are not coming for you today, so relax, chill out, shoot a few trees.

What freedoms have been traded for security? Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that no one should trade any freedoms or liberties, or rights without a fight, especially for the illusion of safety. Then again, I live in Britain, and apart from the odd terrorist incident, which doesn't stop me from going about my daily life, when I step out the door, my safety is no illusion, and I don't even have so much as a water pistol on me to defend myself!

a reply to: NewzNose

Pretty sure they do know it, actually.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: NewzNose

Pretty sure they do know it, actually.

Unless it's CNN.

a reply to: Agit8dChop

Ok let's ban guns.
I know enough about guns to create my own machine guns out of sheet metal screws,nails,and other common items at home depot,might take me a few hours but I could easily turn out a few a week and give them to friends and family who would have had theirs ILLEGALLY taken by the government in your fictional version of reality.

I guarantee you if guns are ever banned the government will have their hands full,because they will have to fight those who won't give them up,by the don't forget we have over 350 MILLION guns in this country and that is just the ones the government knows about,I can guarantee that there are a few Million minimum that the government has no clue of there existence.

Silencers are so easy to make I could make one out of some metal pipe,thread the end caps,fill the thing with frost plugs with washers between them all the way down the metal pipe. Making silencers will add maybe 10-15 minutes to the build time of the cheap sheet metal smgs I would be making in my garage.
The guns I would provide come with silencers attached,so that they can be test fired and used against the government by the resistance that forms if somehow all guns were confiscated. (Which would be impossible to do in this country even with the aid of ever country in the United Nations)

Many gun owners have all the tools necessary and the knowledge of the interworkings of a firearm to understand how to make a Sten Smg in their garage made from $20-50 worth of parts that can all be bought at a hardware store near you.

As long as simple hand tools or electric tools exist you will never be able to get rid of guns,ever in this country or any other in the world. Guns are fact of life they exist and there has probably been several by you today conceal carried by people you even know,but didn't know owned guns.

Also fyi there are also easy ways to make ammunition and gun powder from scratch,so if you were thinking a ban on those would work good luck. Also black powder weapon aren't defined as firearms by the ATF so there would still be plenty of those around and they are just as dangerous as modern guns,more so in how the soft lead balls deform on impact with bone.

originally posted by: elysiumfire
DBCowboy :

If all muslims aren't terrorists, then why are all gun owners subject to gun control, confiscation, banning?

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble with your lack of articulation. Are all gun owners actually subject to gun control, because all Muslims are not terrorists?

You want gun control legislation that will effect all gun owners for the acts of a few.

Why is that any different than attacking all muslims for the actions of a few?

originally posted by: Agit8dChop

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Agit8dChop

I know you're smarter than this.

What new law, if there is anything original that hasn't already been codified somewhere at either the local, state, or federal level, will prevent a Columbine, or Las Vegas?

A new law that will suddenly, magically stop crazy people from doing insane things...There's no such thing, as you very well know.

Any law does nothing to stop this sort of horrid occurrences--it only makes a further mockery of the Constitution.

Thats true, the time to change your laws to fix this problem came and went a long time ago.
however, whats changed that will stop someone else going into a gun shop tomorrow and buying a similar arsenal and committing a mirror like crime next week?

You'll never stop it, but you can make it harder and harder for them to commit these horrid acts.

You could then move forward more and look at your advertising and how they glorify weapons. Maybe look at your gun shows, make tighten your carry laws, maybe restrict what type of weapons people can own and what type of ammo can be purchased. Keep going more and look at your health industry your reliance on pharmaceuticals and your education models.

anything is better than nothing...

Sorry?
We have laws against murder in this country. Been on the books for a long time.

Most (if not all) countries do, and most countries still have this law broken.
What law needs to be passed to stop murderers from murdering?

Honest question.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

you mean this little section of the bill or rights here???

regulated- controlled or supervised by means of rules and regulations.

note it doesn't say unregulated!! kind of tells me that yes, the federal and state gov't can pass regulations as to what kind of arms a militia can have, or any individual, as well as deny those that they deem to be too irresponsible, crazy, or in some other way unfit. and, it seems that laws have been on the books for quite some time proving that it's been accepted that the gov't has the constitutional power to do these things..
for instance, you can't have a missile legally and many criminals can't legally own a gun!

so, ya, they can make a law banning the sale of kits that turn semi-automatic weapons into automatic weapons, they can ban silencers and armored piercing bullets, or any other type of weapon that they decide presents more danger to the general public that benefit to anyone..

a reply to: Agit8dChop

Keep going more and look at your health industry your reliance on pharmaceuticals and your education models.

Health industry? Pharmaceuticals? Those are major issues, on that most of us will agree. Drugging people doesn't work in most case save to mask a problem.

anything is better than nothing...

No. That's why there are thousands of laws that do nothing save waste ink and paper. Politician walk into their offices and scream and shout "We have to be seen to be doing something." So, naturally, they pick the easiest of targets...and, just coincidentally, the wrong ones. Me. Or people like me, who have done, and likely will do, nothing wrong. Yet we're to have our rights violated? Nope. That's a line I'm not willing to cross.

Find a better way. Health care is a good place to start. Right there with the Pharmaceuticals. That may go a long ways towards helping the situation. On that most are agreed. But... Acting in haste means you have plenty of time afterwards to repent. Make sure any "solution" will actually help the situation, not make it worse.

Education? What a novel concept. Teach people, especially kids, that guns are not toys. This won't prevent people from going off their rockers and doing horrific things, but it may go a long ways towards preventing accidents, most of them anyway.

My point of contention is, and will remain, I'm being targeted by all too many of y'all for something I have no control over, nor any part in. Yet somehow, or other, people like myself are at fault and should be punished by losing rights enumerated in the Constitution. I'm told that the constitution doesn't matter... ((bleep)) the Constitution I believe was one phrase used, or similar. ...and you wonder why many of us aren't real cooperative? You really shouldn't.

a reply to: elysiumfire

So wait ... you are now in favor of people who threatened to overthrow the last administration? Or the previous one?

a reply to: dawnstar

Pretty clear that the Militia and the individuals are separate.

originally posted by: elysiumfire
DBCowboy :

If all muslims aren't terrorists, then why are all gun owners subject to gun control, confiscation, banning?

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble with your lack of articulation. Are all gun owners actually subject to gun control, because all Muslims are not terrorists?

Under any proposed laws, they would be.

See ... laws only affect those willing to follow them which would mainly be the law abiding gun owners who don't go out and massacre their fellows.

As for the part about Muslims, generally the talking point against the travel/refugee ban is that we shouldn't punish innocent Muslims just to keep out the few who might be terrorists.

If you are being willfully obtuse to ignore the parallel, then no one can help you and no conversation will be possible.