WH clarified Statue of Liberty Poem - Not actually part of American Values

a reply to: Teikiatsu

Wonderful. That is a discussion for another thread. I am speaking about Trump trying to curb legal immigration right now and how we need as much legal immigration as possible to fuel our economy and especially to fuel Trump's economic plans.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

An effort 17 years in the making. Sheesh.

I'm sure that comment seemed to be relevant when you typed it.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

My ancestors are what people are calling the 'indigenous americans', just FYI.

Congratulations. Sorry for what my ancestors did to yours.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

No, I'm a guy who is the direct result of the previous societies that didn't enforce any type of immigration policy. I'd like the current society to learn from the past.

Well, you're surrounded and embedded in an American culture that was created by generations of immigrants, i.e. the last 300 years or so. And, like it enough, there were people here when your people arrived, regardless of how far you want to go back into history.

It's what humans do and we are, generally, better as a whole for it, although admittedly, horrible injustices can be wreaked along the way.

The Statue of Liberty and the poem The New Colossus have a signficant place in American history and served as inspiration for generations of those immigrants that have made the US what it is today.

That was, I believe, Mr. Acosta's point. It stands.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Yes, the poem stands.
Unfortunately it doesn't read "Give me your.... .... so our current citizens can pay for them to survive".

Was there even a welfare state back then?
Was anyone allowed in?

More importantly, from Acosta's point of view, outside of the US, is English only spoken by people in Britain and Australia? What a dope... even rabid anti-Trumpers were embarrassed for him

originally posted by: UKTruth
a reply to: Gryphon66

Yes, the poem stands.
Unfortunately it doesn't read "Give me your.... .... so our current citizens can pay for them to survive".

Was there even a welfare state back then?
Was anyone allowed in?

More importantly, from Acosta's point of view, outside of the US, is English only spoken by people in Britain and Australia? What a dope... even rabid anti-Trumpers were embarrassed for him

So you can read Jim Acosta's mind now? Know what he was thinking do you?

Hey, here's an idea ... why don't you put up some evidence to go with all those wild claims.

Like, for example, that all immigrants are automatically put on welfare, or any of the other nonsense you posted.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: alphabetaone

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: alphabetaone

originally posted by: UKTruth

No, your house and land is not yours.

Right now it is.

It will be there after you have left.

...after which I honestly dont care what anyone does to it.

You have no right to it.

I do right now.

But even if I accept your property rights, I'll just camp out on your land then and you don't need to feed me.. deal?

Sure. I've got 6 acres in the sticks. I also have quite a diverse array of firearms that I tend to fire on my own land legally, I strongly advise that you DONT camp downrange.

There you go.
Your message is - "yeah come on in to the country, it belongs to everyone in the world, but set foot on my land and i'll likely kill you."

Providing advice on where NOT to be if they want to "camp" on my land is tantamount in your mind to suggesting if they do they will die?

No wonder you're such an avid Donald Trump sycophant, you share a sense of logic.

Why would your advice be necessary - it's not your land... you belong to the land remember? That is what you posited based on your research into Mick Dundee.

Now you're just being stupid. Stop with the antics and grow up.

originally posted by: UKTruth

More importantly, from Acosta's point of view, outside of the US, is English only spoken by people in Britain and Australia? What a dope... even rabid anti-Trumpers were embarrassed for him

Of course you would focus on all the talking points that idiot Miller focused on. It was hyperbole and both Miller AND you should know that, it was hyperbole to make an example.

"OMG I'm so shocked at your cosmopolitan bias"

But as stated already in this thread, your opinion as an outsider on this topic is pretty unwelcome as it doesnt apply to you.

originally posted by: UKTruth
Makes sense, however if you want productivity to go up, it's best to bring people in that want to work and can fill skills gaps.

At a high level the equation SHOULD be pretty simple.

Some smart person projects industry growth over the next 20 years or so based on where the US wants to compete strategically.
Resource requirements by skill set is assessed.
A gap analysis to current skill set is carried out.
A points system is structured around requirements to meet demand.

I would assume someone is doing this already in govt.

It's not all high skills people and positions that we need though. I used to think that, but since getting a real job this summer and starting a career at a pretty good company my position has been evolving a bit as I see what jobs the majority of the company are doing.

I'm working for a fortune 500 and we do manufacturing. We build our product, sell it, and service it for it's lifespan. I would say that a good 85% to 90% of the employees are in what I would consider to be low to no skill positions (we're talking over 50,000 actual jobs in just the US). They're field technicians, mechanics, phone techs, and factory workers. None of these jobs require a formal education, though there is some company specific knowledge they get trained on.

What's truly interesting about these positions though is that the companies workforce is aging. In the factories for example the average age is something like 59 years old. I've toured 3 of our factories now, each employing over 500 factory floor workers and I haven't seen a single person in any of them who looks to be under 30. Most are gray hair and nearing retirement. We have entire product lines that are 15 to 20 years old now, where every person working on the product is going to be retiring within a few years and no replacements are incoming. What really surprised me about these factories though, were that everything was still hand made. There was very little next gen manufacturing going on, it was all human labor. From what I picked up in conversation with managers who had worked at our competitors, the same was true of them.

The company I work at would absolutely love an influx of unskilled labor to take these positions when we need them in the next few years.

But then we can look at the skilled labor too. I'll stick to what I know which is Computer Science. I've mentioned this a few times in the past, but the hiring process for Developer and IT positions is completely screwed up. Few companies understand what they need/want, fewer understand how to articulate the jobs and requirements, and even fewer conduct competent interviews. For example, a long running joke for web developers has to do with the language Angular. Companies will routinely ask for 5+ years experience with the language, but it has only existed for 4 so by the letter of the requirements HR writes up, not a single person passes. Which causes the company to go for an H1B where some Indian staffing agency lacking in ethics writes that their candidate has 7 years experience in the language.

But, even after taking that into account, the demand for dev jobs in the US (not sure about IT) is such that the US could absorb the worlds entire supply of CS graduates every single year and still not fill all the posted jobs. In short, we need every single skilled immigrant we can get.

When we need both the skilled and unskilled, it basically says that we should have an open door immigration policy. I'm not entirely opposed to a points based system, I do understand the reasoning behind it. But I think that when you look at the situation it just doesn't make sense right now. If someone is willing to work and pay taxes we should let them in.

originally posted by: XtrozeroI do my job well, but I would bet there are 10,000 of foreigners that can do my job too and most likely bring more to the table with a PHD, work for a lot less, willing to work 12 hours a day and so on.

Do you believe in free market enterprise or not? In a free market you should be competing against everyone, not limiting the market to just yourself.

Free markets also require a free market on labor. Otherwise it's just hiding behind a government run centrally planned economy.

originally posted by: UKTruth
That comment you replied to is actually an important one because it reveals the mind set. There is no concept of nationality or nation with some people. i.e. no USA at all, just a land mass and resources that everyone in the world should be entitled to. It's why the debates about immigration policy or foreign policy can be so strange.

Borders are about legal jurisdiction. Immigration isn't really a legal issue, it's an economic one. For example, everyone in Colorado could move to West Virginia. West Virginia would see a huge economic boom, Colorado would see a massive decline. No laws are at issue there, only economics.

Immigration between countries should be no different. Countries compete against each other to recruit brain power, muscle power, and tax bases. It makes zero sense to block anyone who can contribute to one or more of those three categories.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
How so? If there is a deficit in skilled workers for the position then it makes sense to bring in foreign workers. That is simple economics. Plus the foreign workers contribute to our economy and pay our taxes. So they are helping our country prosper too, even if they aren't native citizens.

H1-B's are a little different. All too often what ends up happening is the employer posts a position that is either impossible to fill requirements wise, or very difficult to fill, and then they offer a below market rate. I'm not sure if it's incompetence or intentional (probably a bit of both) but it then forces the company to look outside the country for workers. Many of the overseas staffing agencies are well known for "enhancing" resumes to meet those impossible criteria, and then they ship someone over at 2/3 the rate a more qualified (in practice, not on paper) domestic worker is asking for.

originally posted by: Aazadan

Do you believe in free market enterprise or not? In a free market you should be competing against everyone, not limiting the market to just yourself.

Free markets also require a free market on labor. Otherwise it's just hiding behind a government run centrally planned economy.

Do you really want to compete against 7 billion people...lol really? So you are saying open the borders let everyone in, work at the slave wages offered due to the supply and demand of 1000x more people than jobs available otherwise it is a bad system?

Of course the whole world is based on controlled economies, why the hell not? Free market works hand in hand with the government. Too much Government and we see totalitarianism too little and we see Corporatism.

A big part of this is managing the job market for you citizens, not to just compete with the world employment market....

a reply to: Xtrozero

7 billion workers also means 7 billion people with a demand for services. That's a lot of job fuel. It will never come to that because some people don't want to live in the US, but if it did it wouldn't bother me one bit.

The New Colossus was written by Emmanuel Lazarus a Jewish poet.
Before it became a synonym for immigration "Melting Pot" was actually a Broadway play around the turn of the century.
Also written by a pair of Jewish playwrights.
Not that communists and anarchists weren't pouring in from Eastern Europe and Russia around the same or anything.
Totally unrelated I'm sure.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: Xtrozero

7 billion workers also means 7 billion people with a demand for services. That's a lot of job fuel. It will never come to that because some people don't want to live in the US, but if it did it wouldn't bother me one bit.

You say that now...lol

originally posted by: Xtrozero
You say that now...lol

If adding more people made the economy worse, then small towns would be the richest places in the US while cities like New York City and Los Angeles would be dirt poor due to all the riff raff.

In reality though, the exact opposite happens.

a reply to: Aazadan

Exactly. Its the same reason we haven't seen the long list of nation states that have prospered under isolationist policies. When you distill it down to its basest form, adopting policies based on fear rarely produces a positive result.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
The New Colossus was written by Emmanuel Lazarus a Jewish poet.
Before it became a synonym for immigration "Melting Pot" was actually a Broadway play around the turn of the century.
Also written by a pair of Jewish playwrights.
Not that communists and anarchists weren't pouring in from Eastern Europe and Russia around the same or anything.
Totally unrelated I'm sure.

Wow.

So "give us your tired, your hungry, your huddled masses ... " is a Jewish/Communist plot?

(PS: The Poet was EMMA Lazarus.)

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

An effort 17 years in the making. Sheesh.

I'm sure that comment seemed to be relevant when you typed it.

So historical context isn't relevant to you when it does not support your opinion. Got it.

Facts are prickly things, no matter how dismissive the person who hears them. The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

My ancestors are what people are calling the 'indigenous americans', just FYI.

Congratulations. Sorry for what my ancestors did to yours.

Why? Newsflash: You didn't do anything and I don't hold a grudge. People who actually study history objectively realize that stronger cultures overwhelm weaker ones.

I just enjoy destroying people's assumption that I'm some hyper-anglo stereotypical 'alt right' that stands on the shoulders of pasty-white ancestors.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

No, I'm a guy who is the direct result of the previous societies that didn't enforce any type of immigration policy. I'd like the current society to learn from the past.

Well, you're surrounded and embedded in an American culture that was created by generations of immigrants, i.e. the last 300 years or so. And, like it enough, there were people here when your people arrived, regardless of how far you want to go back into history.

It's what humans do and we are, generally, better as a whole for it, although admittedly, horrible injustices can be wreaked along the way.

Blah blah blah I addressed that above.

The Statue of Liberty and the poem The New Colossus have a significant place in American history and served as inspiration for generations of those immigrants that have made the US what it is today.

That's some irony there. Liberals love to hate the USA except when they can try to say how great it is because immigrants built it. Well... which is it? Are we a horrible racist country that has oppressed and exploited the weak, or are we a template for how divergent people can overcome differences and find unity to build a beacon of liberty and freedom?

The Statue of Liberty (aka Liberty Enlightening the World) has a significant place in American history, yes. It commemorates the fight against despotism and monarchy. It celebrates releasing slaves and unchaining mankind from government overlords. It has nothing to do with immigration.

The poem is just riding its coattails, an after-thought nearly two decades in the dust bin before someone thought it would be a good idea to add on. To me, the poem plaque is similar to Defiant Girl on Wall Street. It has twisted the meaning of the Charging Bull into something else, just like the poem has convinced people the Statue means something that was not intended.

That was, I believe, Mr. Acosta's point. It stands.

Acosta is a moron who doesn't know his history and thinks a poem drives immigration policy. His point is moot.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
Acosta is a moron who doesn't know his history and thinks a poem drives immigration policy. His point is moot.

Acosta referenced the poem not in a direct sense as something that drives immigration policy, but rather as part of the amalgamation that defines what he (and many others) believe is the 'spirit' of the US as it relates to immigration. The fact that you view his response as such is more telling of your interpretation therein. His point stands, and quite reasonably I believe.

a reply to: Gryphon66

You believe there is no connection between Socialism and open border immigration policy?
How else do they get fellow Socialists in the country?
Communism began as a Jewish political organization.
Yes, it's part of a Communist plot as old and cliche as it sounds.
The big money interests just use it to destroy whatever freedom is left on the planet.
It's been working for over 100 years now.