Did the holocaust contribute to Hitlers defeat.

a reply to: Ohanka

I mean the ones getting exterminated in the countries hitler had already invaded, not western pushback.

Hitler gets every disgruntled population in Russia as allies if not for all the genocide.

a reply to: Ohanka

Wrong. The Allies knew, there was little to nothing they could do about it though.

Stories had been circulating since the middle 30's of round ups, forced relocations, etc... Oh, it wasn't a secret.

a reply to: crazyewok

For a start Germany would have probly acquired nukes long before the USA if it had utilised the Jewish scientists instead of 'encouraging' them to leave the Reich. Nukes would have won the war against the Soviets so yes, the holocaust cost them victory.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: crazyewok
Then you have the waste in human lives. 5 million jews and millions of more polish, gypsy, Russians ect. Why kill them? Why make enemys of people you could CONSCRIPT and use in your war ?

Nazi Germany consigned millions to slave labour camps, so they did "conscript" people to work for their war effort. In addition, the Jews were also used as forced labourers and that's how many were exterminated.

By 1944, slave labour made up one quarter of Germany's entire work force, and the majority of German factories had a contingent of prisoners.[12][24] The Nazis also had plans for the deportation and enslavement of 50% of Britain's adult male population in the event of a successful invasion.

Wiki Nazi forced labour

The Soviets were also up for forced labour, including deportations. Sadly, the Soviets continued their brutality after WW2, but that's another topic.

I knew that.

But a mistreated , starved disease ridden slave labour force is far from effective and probably hindered the war effort.

Speer the guy in charge of German war effort actually wanted to use German women like the allies and Russians where using for factory work rather than slaves but was overruled.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

The Ukraine would have cheerfully gone over...save for the stupidity of the SS and everything they brought to the table.

Some still did--and boy did they pay for that later. Russians have always taken a dim view of state treason.

a reply to: andy06shake

I'm sure it was prob 25 percent of total allied casualties give or take, if I'm guessing.

If 100 million people died in the war, then 22 million doesn't seem to far fetched..

If 50 million did 6-10 I'm guessing sounds right. ..

I would look at total deaths and see if the number makes since..

If they say 8 million people died and 6 million were Jews, then I doubt the number.

a reply to: seagull

And if hitler doubles his army in Russia rather than has to fight his whole way through...

He might win.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: crazyewok

I'd have to say yes, it did. Or certainly contributed to it. I don't think they'd have won anyway, like you said, three superpowers--The USSR, the US, and Great Britain. They were having enough trouble with just two, once the third, the US, came onto the scene, and was fully ramped up, the Nazi's were doomed.

Yet through all of it, they kept those trains running people to the camps, day in, day out, night in, night out. Trains that could have been carrying war supplies to which ever front. The men, and women, used as guards could have been better used elsewhere.

So, yeah, I'd have to say the pathological hatred of those different cost them big time.

When reading up on soliders acounts on the eastern front, especially around stalingrad, lack of trains to deliver logtical supplies was a huge problem, especially due to the long supply lines. Every single train carriage counted.

Every train carriage diverted or held up because of the holocaust would have cost them very dearly.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Ohanka

I mean the ones getting exterminated in the countries hitler had already invaded, not western pushback.

Hitler gets every disgruntled population in Russia as allies if not for all the genocide.

They tried that. Didn't take off too well.

The Russian Liberation Army wasn't at all popular. Mostly it was composed of conscripts forced at gunpoint.

Most populations will resist foreign invaders no matter how bad their own leaders. Not that it mattered much anyway as the majority of Soviets supported Stalin. His popularity only soared following the genocidal Nazi invasion.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

Yup and I wonder if that wouldn't have changed everything..

Hitler's socialist economy became an instant powerhouse, without all the genocide to unite the world against him... who knows.

a reply to: Ohanka

I've heard the oppposute about Russia specifically, which is arguably the turning point of the war..

I heard most were ready to join hitler until he started genociding children and all.

a reply to: crazyewok

Absolutely.

How many men can you feed with just one boxcar of rations? Quite a few. How many bullets? Mortar shells? Bandages? How many desperately needed soldiers can one 20 car train carry? Quite a damned few.

It's all about logistics. Stupid strategy, which includes the Holocaust and everything associated with it, and bad logistics.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Indeed. The main powers within the Allies were almost fully aware of the magnitude of the Holocaust as early as 1943, possibly 1942.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Ohanka

Wrong. The Allies knew, there was little to nothing they could do about it though.

Stories had been circulating since the middle 30's of round ups, forced relocations, etc... Oh, it wasn't a secret.

Totally right. The USA knew for sure. They didn't make a big deal about it as the USA big business was desperate towards the final years of the war to get trade going again with one of the worlds greatest markets in Germany.

Most European states knew of it too, certainly Britain. They ignored it probably for a multtude of reasons, but lets face it, there was one main reason that at the time made sense to thos etrying to maintain the age old status quo. Jews were a problem back then to the powers that be in the 30's, socialism all over Europe was toppling regimes and causing terrorism just like we see today. Like it or not most of these movements were run by Jews. Jews and socialism were the same thing, Europe was being rocked by this terror and nobody cared if someone was hell bent on eliminating this threat.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Ohanka

I've heard the oppposute about Russia specifically, which is arguably the turning point of the war..

I heard most were ready to join hitler until he started genociding children and all.

Depends where really. There were a lot of ethnic groups in the USSR.

Estonians, Lithuanians and Latvians hated the Russians and quite happily collaborated. Boy did they back the wrong horse...

BelarusIan's, Russians, Central Asians like Kazakhs, Tajiks, and such by and large viewed Stalin favourably before the war.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Had he listened to his generals. If Stalingrad hadn't been named Stalingrad...that, in Hitlers insanity, made it personal between him and Stalin--and maybe saved the Soviet Union.

Draw a line from say old Leningrad in the north, to Rostov in the south near the Black Sea. Had the Germans stopped there, and consolidated their gains, and gone a bit easier with the whole mass murder thing--who knows?

a reply to: Ohanka

But how many more of the other (former soviet such as ukraine) countries swap sides if hitler shows up like a liberator and making everyone German citizens???

From what I've heard everywhere (roughly ) west of Moscow hated Stalin.. they were all even preparing to join hitler until it was obvious hitler did not want them.. in fact wanted them exterminated to make room for aryan colonists..

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Ohanka

But how many more of the other (former soviet such as ukraine) countries swap sides if hitler shows up like a liberator and making everyone German citizens???

From what I've heard everywhere (roughly ) west of Moscow hated Stalin.. they were all even preparing to join hitler until it was obvious hitler did not want them.. in fact wanted them exterminated to make room for aryan colonists..

You ain't getting many "Ukrainians" joining the Nazis. About half of them are Poles, who hate Hitler (and Stalin) and the other half are Russians, they ain't going with Hitler either.

a reply to: seagull

Even more so what if hitler showed up in Russia and happily accepted anyone willing to join his cause!!!

What if instead of losing big chunks of his army, he gained entire Russian divisions???

I wonder if he couldn't have turned Russia into a complete win where he gained forces, if not for his aryan theory..

Hypothetically that works better than finishing the brits first or taking Moscow quickly..

I think Russia is so big, you better have Russians helping you lol..

Unless your a mongol.. hehe

a reply to: Ohanka

Who hated hitler because of him genocidibg them...

This is a hypothetical where hitler wasn't all about the racial cleansing... and instead came as a liberator..

So do the poles hate him if he doesn't come in slaughtering people??

If he is just changing the present government and making everyone German citizens???