Did the holocaust contribute to Hitlers defeat.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Now that you mention it I think that is why the historian I was listening to made the assumption..

Not defeating the British isles left a Western Front, the incompetence of Mussolini, southern front, Russia to the east, three fronts and that was it for the Third reich
Killing and enslaving Jews, cheap labor for the war,effort, stole all their wealth, wasn't really a huge imposition.
8 out of every 10 German soldiers died on the eastern front

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: crazyewok

Absolutely.

How many men can you feed with just one boxcar of rations? Quite a few. How many bullets? Mortar shells? Bandages? How many desperately needed soldiers can one 20 car train carry? Quite a damned few.

It's all about logistics. Stupid strategy, which includes the Holocaust and everything associated with it, and bad logistics.

Logistics has won and lost wars more than battles.

It was German logtical errors that saved Russias arse in 1941.

originally posted by: kelbtalfenek
a reply to: crazyewok

In the beginning stages of WW2, Hitler seized all properties and moneys belonging to the Jewish Germans. These properties and moneys had a large value. They are partially what helped to fund the Nazi war machine, as well as contributing to the demise of the various classes of imprisoned citizens and former citizens.

Money does not = concrete, steel ,ammunition and box cars which Germany had a desperate shortage of.

originally posted by: khnum
1.I do not deny the holocaust I have seen Einsatzgruppen and camp footage however I cannot say just how large an operation it was it was June 24 1940 when the world Jewish congress claimed that 6 million Jews were doomed IF GERMANY WON THE WAR.
So the 6 million number seems to of been an invention which stuck.

Actually a few of the SS #s that stood at the neurmberg trials gave that number of how many the estimated they killed.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
That's my thinking..

If he had come as a liberator, he prob wins...a reply to: ufoorbhunter

That was exactly the result 20 years previous. Jews were on Germany's side in WW1 when the army entered Poland, Ukraine, etc. Jews in the east even spoke to all intents Yiddish basically a simailar and understandable language as the German invaders. They won the First World War............... In the East. Russia gave up the fight and surrendered much of eastern europe. Had Hitler done the same and come as friend and liberator there was a very good chance he'd have succeeded in the east. The only serious oppostion capable of fighting back was USSR and they had just murdered their entire military leadership

At this time of madness hitler should have cleaned up in the east.

If hitler was really determined he should of conquered the USSR first as a liberater THEN started the genocide.

the h0locost that is illegal to question and you go to jail for asking if its real?

LMFAO.

ANYTIME ANYONE needs to make something illegal to question, well then, objectively ask yourself, why do they have to make it a law to think the way 'they' tell you to think?

hitlor was doomed because he was a r0thschild, his mother worked for them. he was part of the plan, and once those plans were completed, there was no need for him to survive.

h0locaust, its so scary, they made it a law to be scared of it.

a reply to: dantanna

I suppose the idea of genocide isn't too scary if you're not the one being murdered for imagined crimes...

It's illegal for the reason that, at the time, West Germany, understandably was trying to rehabilitate its image, and that they didn't want national socialism to rear its ugly head again... Little realizing that all it did was fester like a wound with a dirty bandage. They'd have been better off letting the idiots who believe the tripe to say their say, and be, deservedly so, ridiculed as the sociopaths/degenerates that they are.

a reply to: Anaana

I've done a massive amount of research on the topic and I'd say this is probably the most accurate assessment in this thread.

a reply to: crazyewok

Well if he had done that Germany would have secured the oil and other resources they much needed but would Great Britain and France have sat back and allowed that to happen?

Also invasion and occupation of a nation the size of Russia is going to require quite a few Men and equipment.

If Germany did invade Russia first they may have ended up fighting a similar conflict on a Western front that they did in the East.

Fact is the Axis powers bit off more than they could chew.

Picture this scenario through, Germany holds off initiating WW-2 until it perfects it's V weapons, jet fighters, and advanced submarine force somewhat in secret, then attacks the West while defending it's Eastern borders by leaving a small defensive force to protect them.

France falls and most of Western Europe. The battle of Britain goes Germany's way down to superior air power and V1-V2 strikes on our cities, que invasion and occupation.

Chances are America might not even have entered the war, and the world may have been a far more Evil place to exist.

There is also Germany's heavy water/atomic bomb program, they were far ahead of the rest to begin with if they had pursued research in that department more then Americans New York and Washington DC may have received the same treatment that Nagasaki and Hiroshima did. Especially so when you consider the strides Germany made regarding ballistic missile development.

originally posted by: khnum
1.I do not deny the holocaust I have seen Einsatzgruppen and camp footage however I cannot say just how large an operation it was it was June 24 1940 when the world Jewish congress claimed that 6 million Jews were doomed IF GERMANY WON THE WAR.
So the 6 million number seems to of been an invention which stuck.

Khnum, I want to sober you up just a little bit here, the Jewish Congress had very little to do with that estimate, it was a very conservative estimate as many record's had been destroyed both by the war itself and by the Nazi's covering up what they could before the Allies could recover those record's, that estimate was made by the investigator's and at the Nuremburg war crime's trials' and was conservative because the actual figure may have been far, far higher.

The last commandant of Auschwitz told investigators that 2.5 million had been processed at that camp alone during his time in charge and the guy before him one Rudolf Hoss claimed that he had killed 2.5 million and a further 500.000 had died from disease during his three years there.
www.scrapbookpages.com...

So if that is correct Auschwitz alone murdered nearly 6 million and it was just one of many camp's, Treblinka, Sobibor, Belsen, Dachau and many other's, then add the machine gunned into trenches before the NAZI's created this method of saving bullet's and killing more efficiently by turning people in animal's going to a slaughter house.

Personally I believe the actual figure for those killed by the NAZI's simply because they were Jew, Gypsy or political and racially undesirable to them was most likely at least double the official and deliberately conservative estimate that we still used today.

Over 60 million people in Total died in WW2 as a result of the NAZI's hatred and war mongering.
At least 26.6 million soviet citizen's died of which only 8.7 million were Soviet military personnel (only that is one hell of a lot of men dying but they were fighting for there lives against the best equipped military war machine in the world often with no weapon's of there own - they would charge the German machine gunners in human wave's and they still won) but that means 17.9 million Soviet civilian's including people - Not just Jew's machined gunned into trenches in vast mass killing field's all through the Nazi Occupied soviet territory, you can understand why the Soviet's actually wanted to reciprocate and Wipe the German's out entirely only held at bay by the western allies at the end of the war whom actually protected the German civilian's and perhaps more moderate head's over ruled the anger and blood lust in the Soviet's but for a time the east German's under there occupation did pay a slight price, no were near what the Nazi's had inflicted upon other's though.

And remember even the estimate of 60 million for the entire war is a conservative one, the real figure is probably also far higher.

You maybe are not one but in general Holocaust deniers fall into two main camp's those being the Idiot's whom deny the fact's and modern Nazi Sympathizers.

I hope this enlighten's you.

Remember this also many of these camp's were fed by direct rail line's running throughout Europe, the Nazi's systematically rounded up Jew's and anyone else that they thought could be a Jew and shipped them for years to these places were they (Except for a very small handful whom were used as camp labor or were desirably in area's the Nazi's were researching) were then systematically stripped of the few valuable's they could carry with them then led into these shower block disguised gas chambers were they would be killed in huge batches of people each and every time one of those train's overcrowded with people packed into train cart's came in.

Ever the efficient little rat the NAZI looked for way's to make a profit so for example Huge Bales of woman's hair, mainly the young woman were collected to be turned into wig's and other fashion item's for the NAZI war machine and consumer market, even woman's SKIN was taken to be used for lamp shades, as a leather substitute, of course it had to be young woman with flawless skin and teeth were searched for gold.

Many Jews hid a remnant of there wealth, especially the Dutch Jews in the form of what was called a Life Diamond, knowing the history of the Jews you would understand how they knew the could expect very little help from other peoples so hiding a tiny bit of there wealth seemed sensible.

These life diamonds which were few and far between and which only the wealthiest could afford were swallowed and when passed would be swallowed again, so the Ashes in the crematorium were even sifted by the Nazi's slave workers.

History is seldom pleasant.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Even if the world Jewish organization didn't make the prediction, it still sounds like the reason people say "6 million Jews died" is likely from that hypothesis before hand, not the actual numbers afterward.

Not that that make Hitler's genocides any better, or the number necessarily lest than the 6 million, but it seems pretty far fetched they would guess the right number BEFORE hitler started killing Jews..

That said, hitler kinda based his propaganda around Jews, but he was killing most of the peasants reguardless I think.

I know hitler would surround cities, but rather than invade and make them all subjects, he would just bomb and starve them out . Mainly to exterminate them to make room for his "aryan nazi's"..

So I'm not sure Jews deserve to be sold as the ONLY or primary victims either.

If only 10% of the victims were Jews, do they really deserve to be considered the primary victims??

Even though that is 6 MILLION PEOPLE!! (Didn't want to sugar coat that 10%)...

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Well like I point out the 6 million figure was extremely conservative but no they were not the only victim's by far and way.
A little story, My maternal grandmother would only ever have a Jewish doctor being of Jewish extraction herself, she was a christian but never celebrated Christmas and had a few quirk's and habits that can only be understood if you know that fact, she would often say Oy-oy-oy for example.

During the war she had a lodger whom hired the loft of the house in Liverpool, her two son's were away fighting in Burma against the Japs and one night during blackout the ARP knocked on the door and ran upstairs dragging this lodger whom my Nan had referred to as a nice Jewish Gentleman out to take him away.

He had been waving a torch at the sky flashing it, a signal and so he was identified as a German spy, now whether he was actually Jewish or not - they had access to all of those identity's of there victim's so maybe not, it is still a tale with an interesting sting eh?.

You could accurately argue that the Russian's were the biggest single victim - even though they started the war as Germany's allies in the invasion of Poland which they initially shared but as a percentage of any given people the Jews suffered the greatest loss of there numbers due to the actions of the final solution holocaust.

a reply to: crazyewok

The camps were built by prisoners. The people who were in the camps had their homes and all of their most valuable assets taken. Hell some of the Jews paid for their train tickets in the beginning, and went to camps, and ghettos on regular trains for "relocation". The death camps were run with minimal guards when you look at the fact there were 10s of thousands of prisoners. The Germans used the prisoners to run day to day, and rewarded them with extra food and such for doing a "good" job, they were also safer from being gassed or shot, because the Germans needed them in the camps.


If anything they HELPED Germany, with slave labor. Ones the Jews were all gone, it was going to be the Polish next.

originally posted by: kurthall
a reply to: crazyewok

The camps were built by prisoners. The people who were in the camps had their homes and all of their most valuable assets taken. Hell some of the Jews paid for their train tickets in the beginning, and went to camps, and ghettos on regular trains for "relocation". The death camps were run with minimal guards when you look at the fact there were 10s of thousands of prisoners. The Germans used the prisoners to run day to day, and rewarded them with extra food and such for doing a "good" job, they were also safer from being gassed or shot, because the Germans needed them in the camps.


If anything they HELPED Germany, with slave labor. Ones the Jews were all gone, it was going to be the Polish next.

Doesnt the matter how much wealth the NAZI stole or if the jew paid there train tickets.

TIts still concrete, steel and train box cars diverted from the war in which the Germanys had terrible shortages in.

a reply to: LABTECH767

You sure more Christians weren't killed?? If only 10% of the deaths were Jews.. the. Doesn't that mean like 70% were Christians??

a reply to: crazyewok

Idk...

Prisoners and concentration camps could be considered required equipment for an invasion..period, reguardless if your planning on any genetic cleansing or not.

Hell , it might be cheaper genocide than normal camps because you don't care if they die, so your barely wasting resources on feeding them.

Seeing as hitler originally wanted to deport the jews to Ukraine or Madagascar if he was smart he should of instead conscripted every jew he could find, arm them and send them to to the Afrika corps telling them if they can push the British out of Israel then they can have Israel.


Win/win. Hitler keeps his promise of getting rid of the jews and gets millions of men to use as cannon fodder against the British and the Jews get there homeland back.

Far better use of resources than a costly genocide.

a reply to: crazyewok

Oh yeah that would have been the devious and much more likey7 plan to work as an outcome with success, but Hitler wasn't going down the route of deception. He laid his cards on the table and did exacxtly what he promised through war, the destruction of central and a considerable propertion of eastern european Jewry. What an eff up. He could have taken Moscow (maybe) but by the time he was in its vicinity the eastern Europeans had experienced the 1940's Germans and it was not to their liking.By unleashing the terror on eastern Europe Hitler unknowingly was actually opening up a holocaust upon the Germans trhemselves. Eastern Europe wasn't just cleansed of Jews but Germans too ,far more Germans than jews were cleansed from Eastern Europe even though many of them managed to escape to a much reduced Germany and all the ancient German communities in eastern Europe and Balkans were wiped out bar the Volga Germans but they were exciled a million of them to central Asia Kazchstan.