Genome Data finds Ancient Egyptians closely related to Neolithic Europeans.

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta
vinca invented copper smelting and black-topped pttery. one of those skills probably allowed a man to travel.

Could you expand more on the Black topped pottery, just want to make sure where you are coming from with that in terms of the Nile Valley complex which Kantzveldt is bent on putting on ignore.

there is a nice libation set from the early smelting site of belovode [scroll down that page for nice pic]

and there are alot in romania
shebtiw.files.wordpress.com...

the number danubian figurines in egypt is staggering. no wonder zahi hawass sent an arvchaeolgist to bosnia [just in case...]

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Byrd

The Fayum portraits show evidence for Greco-Romano cultural style and influence but the whole point of the Genetic sampling was to identify whether those individuals represented still constituted the original Egyptian population basis and the evidence demonstrated that they did, and culturally they are still within the context of Egyptian religion which has adapted to superior innovations in creating and preserving the likeness of the individual.

It's not that they "show Greco-Roman style"... the people are indeed Greek and Roman, as their personal names (and things they are buried with) reveal. The decoration on the coffins, while lovely, is the Hellenized version of the religion and there are many mistakes (I'm told) in the writing.

We're studying them this month... I'm tired now but will get back with you with more detail later.

Took them long enough .



This was the reason why ! joined ATS and my first post was about Eqypt.

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta
vinca invented copper smelting and black-topped pttery. one of those skills probably allowed a man to travel.

Could you expand more on the Black topped pottery, just want to make sure where you are coming from with that in terms of the Nile Valley complex which Kantzveldt is bent on putting on ignore.

there is a nice libation set from the early smelting site of belovode [scroll down that page for nice pic]

and there are alot in romania
shebtiw.files.wordpress.com...

the number danubian figurines in egypt is staggering. no wonder zahi hawass sent an arvchaeolgist to bosnia [just in case...]

Thanks for the interesting links , however it could be one of three reasons why Black topped pottery ended up on the Danube, 1 trade items, perhaps using Aegean or Phoenician middlemen, 2 independent invention which is possible or 3 we must consider the boast of 12th dynasty kings military adventurism in the area, especially that of kings Senusret III and Amenemhat III.
According to Herodotus:
The Histories Book II.

Leaving the latter aside, then, I shall speak of the king who came after them, whose name was Sesostris44. [2] This king, the priests said, set out with a fleet of long ships45 from the Arabian Gulf and subjugated all those living by the Red Sea, until he came to a sea which was too shallow for his vessels. [3] After returning from there back to Egypt, he gathered a great army (according to the account of the priests) and marched over the mainland, subjugating every nation to which he came

He marched over the country doing this until he had crossed over from Asia to Europe and defeated the Scythians and Thracians. Thus far and no farther, I think, the Egyptian army went; for the pillars can be seen standing in their country, but in none beyond it. [2] From there, he turned around and went back home; and when he came to the Phasis river, that King, Sesostris, may have detached some part of his army and left it there to live in the country (for I cannot speak with exact knowledge), or it may be that some of his soldiers grew weary of his wanderings, and stayed by the Phasis.
www.perseus.tufts.edu...

He said that Sesotris or Senusret either leave a colony behind or some of his troops abandoned him, setting up a colony in the Black-sea area, this he believed had cultural and technological implications for the area.

For it is plain to see that the Colchians are Egyptians; and what I say, I myself noted before I heard it from others. When it occurred to me, I inquired of both peoples; and the Colchians remembered the Egyptians better than the Egyptians remembered the Colchians; [2] the Egyptians said that they considered the Colchians part of Sesostris' army. I myself guessed it, partly because they are dark-skinned and woolly-haired; though that indeed counts for nothing, since other peoples are, too; but my better proof was that the Colchians and Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only nations that have from the first practised circumcision.

[3] The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine acknowledge that they learned the custom from the Egyptians, and the Syrians of the valleys of the Thermodon and the Parthenius, as well as their neighbors the Macrones, say that they learned it lately from the Colchians. These are the only nations that circumcise, and it is seen that they do just as the Egyptians. [4] But as to the Egyptians and Ethiopians themselves, I cannot say which nation learned it from the other; for it is evidently a very ancient custom.


That the others learned it through traffic with Egypt, I consider clearly proved by this: that Phoenicians who traffic with Hellas cease to imitate the Egyptians in this matter and do not circumcise their children. 105. Listen to something else about the Colchians, in which they are like the Egyptians: they and the Egyptians alone work linen and have the same way of working it, a way peculiar to themselves; and they are alike in all their way of life, and in their speech. Linen has two names: the Colchian kind is called by the Greeks Sardonian ; that which comes from Egypt is called Egyptian.

A very interesting side note since we are talking about Fayuum , it just happened to be Senusret who developed the marshy area at the time into some place livable.
My own thoughts, I am gonna go with items of trade rather than marauding 12th dyn, Egyptian kings as interesting a story as it was, proof of a large scale invasion is lacking to date, I reserve the right to change my mind based on new evidence.

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta
vinca invented copper smelting and black-topped pttery. one of those skills probably allowed a man to travel.

Could you expand more on the Black topped pottery, just want to make sure where you are coming from with that in terms of the Nile Valley complex which Kantzveldt is bent on putting on ignore.

there is a nice libation set from the early smelting site of belovode [scroll down that page for nice pic]

and there are alot in romania
shebtiw.files.wordpress.com...

the number danubian figurines in egypt is staggering. no wonder zahi hawass sent an arvchaeolgist to bosnia [just in case...]

Thanks for the interesting links , however it could be one of three reasons why Black topped pottery ended up on the Danube, 1 trade items, perhaps using Aegean or Phoenician middlemen, 2 independent invention which is possible or 3 we must consider the boast of 12th dynasty kings military adventurism in the area, especially that of kings Senusret III and Amenemhat III.

vinca was 4500BC
The pottery of the old phase (A) of the Vinča culture is characterized by barbotine pottery without chaff and well fired, a large quantity of fine black or greyish black pottery decorated with pleats and grooves, bowls with prominent corner point and thicker walls. Black-topped pottery and the scarceness of incised decoration are also typical of this phase. During the second phase (B), the quantity of the black burnished pottery decreases, replaced by the greyish and yellowish pottery. The quality of the black-topped pottery lowers, while the decoration with incised lines and the incised dotted band become more frequent. The new wave of population leads, during the third phase (C), to the emergence of fine pottery from greyish to reddish in colour. It is also well burnished, having a metallic lustre and silvery shades.

Archaeometric comparison between the Neolithic pottery of different cultures at the archaeological site of Alba Iulia
Bruno FABBRI1*, Mihai GLIGOR, Sabrina GUALTIERI & Simona VARVARA

www.researchgate.net... site_of_Alba_Iulia_Transylvania_Romania

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta
vinca invented copper smelting and black-topped pttery. one of those skills probably allowed a man to travel.

Could you expand more on the Black topped pottery, just want to make sure where you are coming from with that in terms of the Nile Valley complex which Kantzveldt is bent on putting on ignore.

there is a nice libation set from the early smelting site of belovode [scroll down that page for nice pic]

and there are alot in romania
shebtiw.files.wordpress.com...

the number danubian figurines in egypt is staggering. no wonder zahi hawass sent an arvchaeolgist to bosnia [just in case...]

Thanks for the interesting links , however it could be one of three reasons why Black topped pottery ended up on the Danube, 1 trade items, perhaps using Aegean or Phoenician middlemen, 2 independent invention which is possible or 3 we must consider the boast of 12th dynasty kings military adventurism in the area, especially that of kings Senusret III and Amenemhat III.

vinca was 4500BC
The pottery of the old phase (A) of the Vinča culture is characterized by barbotine pottery without chaff and well fired, a large quantity of fine black or greyish black pottery decorated with pleats and grooves, bowls with prominent corner point and thicker walls. Black-topped pottery and the scarceness of incised decoration are also typical of this phase. During the second phase (B), the quantity of the black burnished pottery decreases, replaced by the greyish and yellowish pottery. The quality of the black-topped pottery lowers, while the decoration with incised lines and the incised dotted band become more frequent. The new wave of population leads, during the third phase (C), to the emergence of fine pottery from greyish to reddish in colour. It is also well burnished, having a metallic lustre and silvery shades.

Archaeometric comparison between the Neolithic pottery of different cultures at the archaeological site of Alba Iulia
Bruno FABBRI1*, Mihai GLIGOR, Sabrina GUALTIERI & Simona VARVARA

www.researchgate.net... site_of_Alba_Iulia_Transylvania_Romania

Well I go with independent invention then as the Black topped Pottery on the Nile originated in Sudan and spread to Egypt proper, the dates from Nabta Playa is about 10,000 to 7000, B.C
www.britishmuseum.org...

originally posted by: Parta
vinca was 4500BC
The pottery of the old phase (A) of the Vinča culture is characterized by barbotine pottery without chaff and well fired, a large quantity of fine black or greyish black pottery decorated with pleats and grooves, bowls with prominent corner point and thicker walls. Black-topped pottery and the scarceness of incised decoration are also typical of this phase. During the second phase (B), the quantity of the black burnished pottery decreases, replaced by the greyish and yellowish pottery. The quality of the black-topped pottery lowers, while the decoration with incised lines and the incised dotted band become more frequent. The new wave of population leads, during the third phase (C), to the emergence of fine pottery from greyish to reddish in colour. It is also well burnished, having a metallic lustre and silvery shades.

This would make it different than the Egyptian pottery.

Part of this is due, of course, to different clay and different materials that they used for glazing and firing.

Naqada culture did trade abroad

On the basis of pottery found in Upper Egypt, Palestine, Syria and Mesopotamia, Mark (1997) suggests that there was a sea route between Egypt and northern Syria by Naqada IIc, and probably before, and that there was a land route leading from Mesopotamia through northern Syria, Palestine and from there to Egypt.
from this rather fascinating site on the Fayum

...and from the page on the Chacolithic in Fayum:

As Mortensen says “The pottery tradition at Heliopolis is clearly related to the earlier tradition in the north, found at Merimde, Fayum and El Omari but also shows traits from the Palestinian tradition: temper with crushed limestone, use of a lime wash” (1988, p.33). It would be distinctly useful to attempt some sort of clarification of the relationship between these three sites.

There's some evidence of Mesopotamian design elements at this stage but these cultures don't appear to be hugely influential, as evidenced by things such as the dog burials and deities.

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta
vinca invented copper smelting and black-topped pttery. one of those skills probably allowed a man to travel.

Could you expand more on the Black topped pottery, just want to make sure where you are coming from with that in terms of the Nile Valley complex which Kantzveldt is bent on putting on ignore.

there is a nice libation set from the early smelting site of belovode [scroll down that page for nice pic]

and there are alot in romania
shebtiw.files.wordpress.com...

the number danubian figurines in egypt is staggering. no wonder zahi hawass sent an arvchaeolgist to bosnia [just in case...]

Thanks for the interesting links , however it could be one of three reasons why Black topped pottery ended up on the Danube, 1 trade items, perhaps using Aegean or Phoenician middlemen, 2 independent invention which is possible or 3 we must consider the boast of 12th dynasty kings military adventurism in the area, especially that of kings Senusret III and Amenemhat III.

vinca was 4500BC
The pottery of the old phase (A) of the Vinča culture is characterized by barbotine pottery without chaff and well fired, a large quantity of fine black or greyish black pottery decorated with pleats and grooves, bowls with prominent corner point and thicker walls. Black-topped pottery and the scarceness of incised decoration are also typical of this phase. During the second phase (B), the quantity of the black burnished pottery decreases, replaced by the greyish and yellowish pottery. The quality of the black-topped pottery lowers, while the decoration with incised lines and the incised dotted band become more frequent. The new wave of population leads, during the third phase (C), to the emergence of fine pottery from greyish to reddish in colour. It is also well burnished, having a metallic lustre and silvery shades.

Archaeometric comparison between the Neolithic pottery of different cultures at the archaeological site of Alba Iulia
Bruno FABBRI1*, Mihai GLIGOR, Sabrina GUALTIERI & Simona VARVARA

www.researchgate.net... site_of_Alba_Iulia_Transylvania_Romania

Well I go with independent invention then as the Black topped Pottery on the Nile originated in Sudan and spread to Egypt proper, the dates from Nabta Playa is about 10,000 to 7000, B.C
www.britishmuseum.org...

from your link
"Nevertheless, this shows that the early phase for the complex of pottery in which Black-topped pottery first occurs is securely dated to around 6,000 bp and is present at multiple sites at Nabta Playa."

its only a 700 hour walk at a liesurely pace to cairo from belgrade

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Parta
vinca was 4500BC
The pottery of the old phase (A) of the Vinča culture is characterized by barbotine pottery without chaff and well fired, a large quantity of fine black or greyish black pottery decorated with pleats and grooves, bowls with prominent corner point and thicker walls. Black-topped pottery and the scarceness of incised decoration are also typical of this phase. During the second phase (B), the quantity of the black burnished pottery decreases, replaced by the greyish and yellowish pottery. The quality of the black-topped pottery lowers, while the decoration with incised lines and the incised dotted band become more frequent. The new wave of population leads, during the third phase (C), to the emergence of fine pottery from greyish to reddish in colour. It is also well burnished, having a metallic lustre and silvery shades.

This would make it different than the Egyptian pottery.

Part of this is due, of course, to different clay and different materials that they used for glazing and firing.

Naqada culture did trade abroad

On the basis of pottery found in Upper Egypt, Palestine, Syria and Mesopotamia, Mark (1997) suggests that there was a sea route between Egypt and northern Syria by Naqada IIc, and probably before, and that there was a land route leading from Mesopotamia through northern Syria, Palestine and from there to Egypt.
from this rather fascinating site on the Fayum

...and from the page on the Chacolithic in Fayum:

As Mortensen says “The pottery tradition at Heliopolis is clearly related to the earlier tradition in the north, found at Merimde, Fayum and El Omari but also shows traits from the Palestinian tradition: temper with crushed limestone, use of a lime wash” (1988, p.33). It would be distinctly useful to attempt some sort of clarification of the relationship between these three sites.

There's some evidence of Mesopotamian design elements at this stage but these cultures don't appear to be hugely influential, as evidenced by things such as the dog burials and deities.

vinca predates naqada and badari

ps the very first black-topped in egypt was brown not red

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta
vinca invented copper smelting and black-topped pttery. one of those skills probably allowed a man to travel.

Could you expand more on the Black topped pottery, just want to make sure where you are coming from with that in terms of the Nile Valley complex which Kantzveldt is bent on putting on ignore.

there is a nice libation set from the early smelting site of belovode [scroll down that page for nice pic]

and there are alot in romania
shebtiw.files.wordpress.com...

the number danubian figurines in egypt is staggering. no wonder zahi hawass sent an arvchaeolgist to bosnia [just in case...]

Thanks for the interesting links , however it could be one of three reasons why Black topped pottery ended up on the Danube, 1 trade items, perhaps using Aegean or Phoenician middlemen, 2 independent invention which is possible or 3 we must consider the boast of 12th dynasty kings military adventurism in the area, especially that of kings Senusret III and Amenemhat III.

vinca was 4500BC
The pottery of the old phase (A) of the Vinča culture is characterized by barbotine pottery without chaff and well fired, a large quantity of fine black or greyish black pottery decorated with pleats and grooves, bowls with prominent corner point and thicker walls. Black-topped pottery and the scarceness of incised decoration are also typical of this phase. During the second phase (B), the quantity of the black burnished pottery decreases, replaced by the greyish and yellowish pottery. The quality of the black-topped pottery lowers, while the decoration with incised lines and the incised dotted band become more frequent. The new wave of population leads, during the third phase (C), to the emergence of fine pottery from greyish to reddish in colour. It is also well burnished, having a metallic lustre and silvery shades.

Archaeometric comparison between the Neolithic pottery of different cultures at the archaeological site of Alba Iulia
Bruno FABBRI1*, Mihai GLIGOR, Sabrina GUALTIERI & Simona VARVARA

www.researchgate.net... site_of_Alba_Iulia_Transylvania_Romania

Well I go with independent invention then as the Black topped Pottery on the Nile originated in Sudan and spread to Egypt proper, the dates from Nabta Playa is about 10,000 to 7000, B.C
www.britishmuseum.org...

from your link
"Nevertheless, this shows that the early phase for the complex of pottery in which Black-topped pottery first occurs is securely dated to around 6,000 bp and is present at multiple sites at Nabta Playa."

its only a 700 hour walk at a liesurely pace to cairo from belgrade

That maybe so, but it would be necessary for the Vincians to somehow traveled all the way to Sudan past Egypt, only to have the potteries, travel back down the Nile into Egypt , and the date of 6000 b.c as a compromise is 2500yrs too early for the oldest pottery culture of 4500 B.C
That same journey of hot footing it for 700 hrs could be from Cairo to Belgrade, in either case it would be improbable.

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta
vinca invented copper smelting and black-topped pttery. one of those skills probably allowed a man to travel.

Could you expand more on the Black topped pottery, just want to make sure where you are coming from with that in terms of the Nile Valley complex which Kantzveldt is bent on putting on ignore.

there is a nice libation set from the early smelting site of belovode [scroll down that page for nice pic]

and there are alot in romania
shebtiw.files.wordpress.com...

the number danubian figurines in egypt is staggering. no wonder zahi hawass sent an arvchaeolgist to bosnia [just in case...]

Thanks for the interesting links , however it could be one of three reasons why Black topped pottery ended up on the Danube, 1 trade items, perhaps using Aegean or Phoenician middlemen, 2 independent invention which is possible or 3 we must consider the boast of 12th dynasty kings military adventurism in the area, especially that of kings Senusret III and Amenemhat III.

vinca was 4500BC
The pottery of the old phase (A) of the Vinča culture is characterized by barbotine pottery without chaff and well fired, a large quantity of fine black or greyish black pottery decorated with pleats and grooves, bowls with prominent corner point and thicker walls. Black-topped pottery and the scarceness of incised decoration are also typical of this phase. During the second phase (B), the quantity of the black burnished pottery decreases, replaced by the greyish and yellowish pottery. The quality of the black-topped pottery lowers, while the decoration with incised lines and the incised dotted band become more frequent. The new wave of population leads, during the third phase (C), to the emergence of fine pottery from greyish to reddish in colour. It is also well burnished, having a metallic lustre and silvery shades.

Archaeometric comparison between the Neolithic pottery of different cultures at the archaeological site of Alba Iulia
Bruno FABBRI1*, Mihai GLIGOR, Sabrina GUALTIERI & Simona VARVARA

www.researchgate.net... site_of_Alba_Iulia_Transylvania_Romania

Well I go with independent invention then as the Black topped Pottery on the Nile originated in Sudan and spread to Egypt proper, the dates from Nabta Playa is about 10,000 to 7000, B.C
www.britishmuseum.org...

from your link
"Nevertheless, this shows that the early phase for the complex of pottery in which Black-topped pottery first occurs is securely dated to around 6,000 bp and is present at multiple sites at Nabta Playa."

its only a 700 hour walk at a liesurely pace to cairo from belgrade

That maybe so, but it would be necessary for the Vincians to somehow traveled all the way to Sudan past Egypt, only to have the potteries, travel back down the Nile into Egypt , and the date of 6000 b.c as a compromise is 2500yrs too early for the oldest pottery culture of 4500 B.C
That same journey of hot footing it for 700 hrs could be from Cairo to Belgrade, in either case it would be improbable.

you are getting your bp and bc mixed up. vinca ended before badari and naqada began. 6000bp not 6000bc for black-topped in egypt and the big lake was the place to be. just like back home

originally posted by: Byrd
a reply to: Kantzveldt

As the article says, "Egyptian mummies dating from approximately 1400 BCE to 400 CE," This is quite different than studying mummies from, say, 2000 BC... and as we've discussed, the Naqada culture goes back to 3500 BC.

The findings are more in line with saying "most Americans have European genes."

While true, this does not really look at the DNA of the most ancient Americans... the Native American tribes.

And even among different tribes, there are very different genetics and origins ( haplotypes and etc). Even within the X haplotype there are VERY different origins. EG my x2a clade is found nowhere in the old world including Siberia. They call it a phantom ancestor... which means to me that we havent looked hard enough or long enough just yet. The out of Africa theory has been proven wrong for a very long time.. its just not been popular to point this out.

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Parta
vinca invented copper smelting and black-topped pttery. one of those skills probably allowed a man to travel.

Could you expand more on the Black topped pottery, just want to make sure where you are coming from with that in terms of the Nile Valley complex which Kantzveldt is bent on putting on ignore.

there is a nice libation set from the early smelting site of belovode [scroll down that page for nice pic]

and there are alot in romania
shebtiw.files.wordpress.com...

the number danubian figurines in egypt is staggering. no wonder zahi hawass sent an arvchaeolgist to bosnia [just in case...]

Thanks for the interesting links , however it could be one of three reasons why Black topped pottery ended up on the Danube, 1 trade items, perhaps using Aegean or Phoenician middlemen, 2 independent invention which is possible or 3 we must consider the boast of 12th dynasty kings military adventurism in the area, especially that of kings Senusret III and Amenemhat III.

vinca was 4500BC
The pottery of the old phase (A) of the Vinča culture is characterized by barbotine pottery without chaff and well fired, a large quantity of fine black or greyish black pottery decorated with pleats and grooves, bowls with prominent corner point and thicker walls. Black-topped pottery and the scarceness of incised decoration are also typical of this phase. During the second phase (B), the quantity of the black burnished pottery decreases, replaced by the greyish and yellowish pottery. The quality of the black-topped pottery lowers, while the decoration with incised lines and the incised dotted band become more frequent. The new wave of population leads, during the third phase (C), to the emergence of fine pottery from greyish to reddish in colour. It is also well burnished, having a metallic lustre and silvery shades.

Archaeometric comparison between the Neolithic pottery of different cultures at the archaeological site of Alba Iulia
Bruno FABBRI1*, Mihai GLIGOR, Sabrina GUALTIERI & Simona VARVARA

www.researchgate.net... site_of_Alba_Iulia_Transylvania_Romania

Well I go with independent invention then as the Black topped Pottery on the Nile originated in Sudan and spread to Egypt proper, the dates from Nabta Playa is about 10,000 to 7000, B.C
www.britishmuseum.org...

from your link
"Nevertheless, this shows that the early phase for the complex of pottery in which Black-topped pottery first occurs is securely dated to around 6,000 bp and is present at multiple sites at Nabta Playa."

its only a 700 hour walk at a liesurely pace to cairo from belgrade

That maybe so, but it would be necessary for the Vincians to somehow traveled all the way to Sudan past Egypt, only to have the potteries, travel back down the Nile into Egypt , and the date of 6000 b.c as a compromise is 2500yrs too early for the oldest pottery culture of 4500 B.C
That same journey of hot footing it for 700 hrs could be from Cairo to Belgrade, in either case it would be improbable.

you are getting your bp and bc mixed up. vinca ended before badari and naqada began. 6000bp not 6000bc for black-topped in egypt and the big lake was the place to be. just like back home

Yes I did indeed mix them up, however even if I have to shave off couple of thousand yrs , we are still at 9,450 yrs B.C calendar date for Nabta Playa and the pottery

Again why skirt the Nile valley where there is plenty of water, even big water to reach far away Sudan,then to back track down the Nile, just to introduce Black top pottery centuries later, why they made no stops in between Romania and Sudan distributing those wares, does that sound reasonable to you?? how about the folks in those areas simply developed those pottery being the Saharan complex of Africa have the 2nd oldest pottery industry in the world, the first being in far away Japan at 14,000 B.C, Christopher Ehret put the Saharan complex at 10,500 B.C that's the calendar date, also such a presumably large migration would have left other influences as well such as languages etc, the simplest non exotic explanation is of local invention and distribution.

a reply to: Parta

It's interesting what you suggest, i've been proposing Uruk sphere trade contacts and development in Egypt during the Naqada early Bronze age were Uruk was a centre of Ubaid culture and the figurines involved there i would trace back to Vinca influence, there is also the early writing pictographs which some suggest relate to earlier developments in the Balkans.

The Uruk sphere was working in conjunction with the Trans-Caucasians/Hurrians in terms of opening up mineral resources and trade routes and spreading early Bronze age technology and craft skills, but the basis for that is considered to have arrived across the Black sea and to have originated with the Vinca.

There is consideration that Vinca departed the Balkans and migrated elsewhere and i suppose relocating the pottery type and figurine tradition would be the way to go on relocating them.

a reply to: Byrd

The general information says they were Egyptians you will need to try and make the case otherwise.

The portraits represent native Egyptians, some of whom had adopted Greek or Latin names, then seen as ‘status symbols’. Victor J. Katz notes that "most modern studies conclude that the Greek & Egyptian communities coexisted with little mutual influence".

Fayum Portraits

originally posted by: Advantage

And even among different tribes, there are very different genetics and origins ( haplotypes and etc). Even within the X haplotype there are VERY different origins. EG my x2a clade is found nowhere in the old world including Siberia. They call it a phantom ancestor... which means to me that we havent looked hard enough or long enough just yet. The out of Africa theory has been proven wrong for a very long time.. its just not been popular to point this out.

Actually, the data strengthens the "out of Africa" point of origin. I also have some unusual markers in my DNA but they are mutations that developed long afterwards.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
The general information says they were Egyptians you will need to try and make the case otherwise.

The portraits represent native Egyptians, some of whom had adopted Greek or Latin names, then seen as ‘status symbols’. Victor J. Katz notes that "most modern studies conclude that the Greek & Egyptian communities coexisted with little mutual influence".

Fayum Portraits

I stand corrected. They were apparently upper class Egyptian living in/near the Greek and Roman communities.

a reply to: Byrd

I recently watched a documentary on the very subject of genetics and empires, and they used ghengis khan as an example in that through his domination of Eurasia his genetic make up exists in large proportion of modern males today , this was then traced back further to a man called adam in the africas whos DNA exists to this day in modern humans .

Through conquering Ghengis ensured his DNA would rule

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Byrd

this was then traced back further to a man called adam in the africas whos DNA exists to this day in modern humans .

Through conquering Ghengis ensured his DNA would rule

Yes , I believe you're referring to the "Y Chromosomal Adam" , In genealogy the terms Mitochondrial Eve and Y Chromosomal Adam is used to date back the oldest haplogroups in Humans. But you're absolutely correct Africans have the oldest Haplogroups & Europeans has the latest. Which is why the out of Africa theory actually makes sense. The haplogroup-structure of the Y-Chromosomal Adam starts from Africans -> Aborigines -> Indians then ends with Asians & Caucasians being the latest races on the genealogical chart.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Byrd

I recently watched a documentary on the very subject of genetics and empires, and they used ghengis khan as an example in that through his domination of Eurasia his genetic make up exists in large proportion of modern males today , this was then traced back further to a man called adam in the africas whos DNA exists to this day in modern humans .

Through conquering Ghengis ensured his DNA would rule

A good example, I think, and these mummies were "recent" (New Kingdom and later.) One thought that occurred to me was that Egyptians did trade with other areas and had military expeditions all over the Mediterranean. So Egyptian genes should show up in the Mediterranean areas and probably into Europe and other areas you might think were less likely.

I haven't had the energy to go through the DNA migration data and I'm not sure how much of it exists. I do know that it's a complex pattern. I should probably find a decent site and go through that. For some reason, archaeology seems more coherent than DNA.

I should remedy that and learn more.

Archaeologically, sites in the Fayum show influences (around 6,000 BC and earlier) from the Fayum and bones from an early deposit show that the woman was apparently related to sub-Saharan Africans (this would be determined by the shape of the eye sockets (most likely to preserve in cranial material) and possibly some of the nose (ditto). Sometime towards the beginning of the first unification of Egypt, cultures from the south (Upper Egypt) take over Lower Egypt (the area of the Mediterranean) and a main power center at Abydos which began as and remained the most sacred site in ancient Egypt.

1 man can do alot of damage if he has certain enthusiasms.

Half of Western European men descended from one Bronze Age ‘king’
www.telegraph.co.uk...

humans love to travel too. is it a wonder everyones genes are everywhere.