First evidence for higher state of consciousness found

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
Hallucinogens can help you see patterns or problems in a new way. Not necessarily in a accurate way.

I've heard it said that the best router architects are only able to code on '___'. I don't know if it's true. I always suspected a couple of the alternate physics guys were on peyote. But as far as I can tell, drugs sort of take a dump on your higher mental functions instead, especially at 'recreational dosages'. In microdoses where you're not high or seeing things, then they might loosen up your associational facilities. But if you're high as a kite, I don't think you're going to be doing anything but engaging in mental masturbation.

a reply to: Bedlam

List for us all the forms of consciousness (ANY from ANY creature) which aren't entirely subjective.

Here's some fun: I was waiting for you go try this angle.

With this as your last ditch to try and act smarter in your experience because you dont even 'know', to try and push this angle is tantamount to arguing that the entire realm of philosophy is utterly pointless and backwards to contemplate or discuss.

Dude, higher states of consciousness than the norm are possible in humans as afterall there really isn't a norm to begin with. Simply being more intelligent than another still wouldn't compare in this discussion, although the power of the individual brain does have significant bearing on the experiences.

Like I keep saying, you can't be told you can only see it (or rather any of them) for yourself. You could run amok in this thread for 250 pages, even do lots of online research in the process, but until that first REAL yahzee moment, you just cant know, while the moment you hit it for the first time you'd realize what a dolt you were all those years you thought you were the wiser on this subject.

BUT, here you go anyways:

This Brain Map Shows Why People On Shrooms See Sounds And Hear Colors
A new study finds that tripping on (illegal) magic mushrooms may change the mind by quieting traditional brain activity and jumpstarting new connections between areas of the brain that previously didn't communicate with one another.

Psilocybin, the main psychoactive ingredient in magic mushrooms, sprouts new links across previously disconnected brain regions, the study found, temporarily altering the brain's entire organizational framework.

The data visualization below (b) shows how these new connections among separate regions of the brain in people dosed with psilocybin; the one on the left (a) represents the conventional connections in the brains of people not on the drug. You can see how much more connected the trippers brains are:

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
you just cant know, while the moment you hit it for the first time you'd realize what a dolt you were all those years you thought you were the wiser on this subject.

So, then it should be obvious that there are some forms of physics, math, engineering, philosophy, literature that can only be comprehended by those in 'higher states', right? Some objective, measurable, improvement of mentation that you can point to? I'm still waiting.

There are endless faux improvements that are only understood by those whose facilities are impaired. Most drunks think they're being deep and no one can understand them. I've no doubt it extends to meth users and people out of their gourds on peyote.

eta: that article doesn't exactly (even slightly...) show any objective improvement. Back to page 1, you can show a lot of non-coherent activation during a seizure, too. Doesn't mean it's an improvement. Improvement is the sort of thing you can measure. An improved person would certainly perform better at something. No?

etaa: Have at it, I'm off to bed.

a reply to: Bedlam

You can do meth, crack, smack, beer, wine, liquor, pot, energy drinks to the point of overdose, and it still wouldn't be anywhere near the same ballpark as what we're discussing here.

As I already said, dont deflect with "except telescopes work", dont immediately hit reply, let this sink in and go take a nap on it, and only then will you at least have some clue how silly your hardliner approach here is:

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
The point with the jist here though is, unless you actually know, then you simply dont know. Like someone whose never even seen a telescope or images from one, arguing about the "heavens"... with someone whose worked on Hubble for NASA.

I mean if you have an IQ of 250, then you wouldn't be totally out your shia'ite with your appeal from ignorance here, but even then still, without actually having seen for yourself, odds are you still wouldn't be able to comprehend what people are trying to tell you on this.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Cauliflower

Some people dont need drugs but human history is nothing but a tale of drugs

our whole existence is nothing but a relationship with drugs!

it's been a part of human evolution for such a long time

And let me remind you that this word DRUGS and its association with nature elements was created to condition us to think it's a TERRIBLE thing. And it works, as you can see above.

But hey, people ingest alcohol, tobacco, meds from the big pharma that we cant possible imagine what they're made of and they do not call any of them DRUGS.

So gtfo with your conditioned behavior and think and experience things for yourself.

a reply to: Bedlam

I dont even know how this could be measured. I have doubts it would even really be possible. You could be an expert practitioner of administering IQ tests, and still wouldn't know how to approach such a thing. Brain scans now that's an approach, but it still wouldn't fit the task completely. And of course naysayers who just have to be the smartest, they'll just say 'oh that's just meaningless static argh rawrrr'.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been axed already. To go any further with it would be violating the T&C. But as already explained, it'd be pointless for someone who has broken on through to other other side to try to describe it to someone who has not.

How simple it would be if you could actually come up with an example of something, anything, objective which has been facilitated by the use of hallucinogens. Some objective understanding that could only be achieved under their influence. I'll wait, surely you can manage one.

My favorite book about the types of objective reality observed and documented under psychedelics:

'___': The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences

By Dr. Rick Strassman

There are plenty of others as well if you take the time to read the research that has been done in the past two decades involving psychedelics.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: vinifalou

No one has ever said that taking mind altering drugs derived from plants, does nothing to the brain.

Doctors have known that this is the case for DECADES, longer even than that. But what has not been shown, even now, is that those effects are an improvement over what is considered the normal state of mind, only that these things create a DIFFERENCE in brain activity.

I'm not trying to advocate usage as that would be a breach of terms and conditions but to say there is no "improvements" clearly shows that you have done absolutely ZERO research on this matter.

There are many studies, even have threads about them on ATS that discuss the positive "improvements" from using certain substances. The most known about to my knowledge is psilocybin...(many of us have known for while)

PSILOCYBIN, FROM MAGIC MUSHROOMS, EASES ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION IN CANCER PATIENTS

Psilocybin, the active ingredient in psychoactive or "magic" mushrooms, has been shown to reduce anxiety and depression in cancer patients.

www.newsweek.com...

There are so many other studies for that substance alone.

Recently, MDMA was found to help as well... (many of us have known for while)

Psychedelics and MDMA are helping cure PTSD, addiction, depression and anxiety

www.news.com.au... 56255629e8a23d20cb80fcc

Here's a beer on me

a reply to: Bedlam

Why? "Native therapy" is full of crap that doesn't work.

Where do you come up with these "facts"?

I used a California Poppy tincture to cure my insomnia for a few weeks. It's not an opiate, it is a mild sedative that the Natives have been using for ever.

But since you said so, they are wrong...it doesn't work at all...it's crap. My own positive personal experiences are also false since you said it's crap.

Look into the use of Maple Syrup to kill germz...

Are you on a mission?

originally posted by: Mikehawk

MDMA are helping cure PTSD, addiction, depression and anxiety

Basically is one.

Sometimes people get so far into the higher state of consciousness that one delivers they literally DIE on the dance floor (from over-heating).

Note that I doubt anyone would claim such states are "better" in terms of like you'd want to be like that all the time. For one thing, it'd defeat the purpose. Imagine laying the same video game and only it for the rest of your life, all the time. It'd get old, and you'd not get much done. A higher state of consciousness isn't supposed to mean you'd actually 'function' better on it than otherwise. That approach to the subject is pointless really.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

originally posted by: Mikehawk

MDMA are helping cure PTSD, addiction, depression and anxiety

Basically is one.

Sometimes people get so far into the higher state of consciousness that one delivers they literally DIE on the dance floor (from over-heating).

Note that I doubt anyone would claim such states are "better" in terms of like you'd want to be like that all the time. For one thing, it'd defeat the purpose. Imagine laying the same video game and only it for the rest of your life, all the time. It'd get old, and you'd not get much done. A higher state of consciousness isn't supposed to mean you'd actually 'function' better on it than otherwise. That approach to the subject is pointless really.

-I edited this post out of respect to the member I am quoting due to a misunderstanding -

Please disregard.

a reply to: Mikehawk

No, I was just responding to the whole thread so far with that example you brought up.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Indeed. "Higher" really just means "different."

Star for you though.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: Mikehawk

No, I was just responding to the whole thread so far with that example you brought up.

No worries, thank you for clarifying. I will edit my last post and make it more polite. Wasn't trying to give you a hard time. I must be worked up due to some of the comments in this thread.

originally posted by: Bedlam
Seriously, guys, "I take drugs because I like the feeling" doesn't equate to enlightenment.

If it made you more intelligent or gave you great insight, the examples would be spewing out of you, instead of lame asides and excuses.

Bedlam~ I very rarely bother to the point of pointing out such obvious, nor comment towards ones personality traits/character flaws, but here in this particular thread it has moved me enough to point out .... you're coming across as a right ignorant muppet ! ** Don't shoot the messenger ** Just because I wasn't plugged in to laboratory measuring machines to somehow produce in readable form to others what to me was a uniquely personal & individual huge shift to my understanding & perception in societal placements of fellow human beings & of removing doors from closeted rooms that held my views, conditioning from previous social settings had constructed.

perception is in the mind of the beholder. show the data to explain how your seed & partners egg produce a gift borne from both parents cells yet has an independently sourced conscience & soul ? Do you not have a soul due to having no readable data regarding it's origin ?

I know stubbornness, friend. I honestly do. But I also know the fact of ...you can't adequately explain it to others, you will know when you know.It don't rob you personally of any of your intelligence simply due to you're not being able to know, what that know is.
So know you know !( a different know.)

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: luthier
Your argument of ignorance is beyond in considerate and also full of steadfast belief with nothing to back it but an opinion on what your personal definition of higher consciousness is.

What is yours? Mine is definitely not the same as yours.

You would also know if you understood or were interested in neoroscience that no other drug does this to your brain.

Which 'this' are your referring to? The one from the OP? Any number of meds cause seizures, some intentionally, and they all do the same sort of thing, only more so. I'd expect meth to do it as well. A lot of non-coherent activity is easy to cause. I do not agree that all provide a higher order of consciousness.

My question is do you scorn and be little people with mental illness because that is what it sounds like. They just need to pony up.

I don't agree with them that doing drugs fixes things. I know it's the go-to for schizophrenics off their meds. It isn't a fix though.

Or do you believe that using salts and metals aa well as barbiturates and other drugs is somehow not doing what the psychodelic would be doing?

*snort* Salts and metals? Ah, chemistry is past you as well. Ok, how are dimethylamines and ergot derivatives not drugs?

Is lithium somehow better science if you could cure schizophrenia with psychodelic drugs with one or two doses. Heck even every 6 months?

I just don't get your arguments

They're pretty straightforward. In what way is this "a higher order of consciousness"?

And there is no cure for schizophrenia. I'm waiting for you to tell me that the voices aren't really a bad thing, they're actually beings from another dimension giving you words of wisdom.

Your ignorance is amazing.

You consider one drug useful the other not and judge this merit by street credibility.

Meth brain scans are readily available. As are those of seizures. They are not the same, they don't last the same, they don't look the same.

Unfortunately it's just more argumen from ignorance, red herrings, and strawmen for you.

I am very much surprised how incredibly faith based you are. Your entire point of view is based on superstition.

You have not backed a single claim you make.

Higher consciousness is not inteligence by the way. Perhaps you need to just define your words or heck look up how psychology defines it.

www.nature.com...

From my own experiences I do believe that a couple words that cannot be said here do allow for some interesting neural network connections to be formed that wouldn't under most circumstances.

I spent a few years looking for proof that there was something more but was left with nothing. Confirmation bias, the power of suggestion, self-manipulation...

That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.” - Hunter S. Thompson

a reply to: TrueBrit

Says the guy downing a pint in his avatar.

It didnt sound to me like they made judgement of how "useful" the brain activity may or may not be in conventional life.

Encouraging that they at least speculate there may be therapeutic applications.

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: TrueBrit

It is outside the scope of the work being done, but it is commonly known and accepted by those open to the possibilities of mind-altering drugs that some leave a residue or even a near-permanent or permanent change in the whole "state" of the brain and that new state of being is relished as an expanded view of "reality" that was hidden before.

So if the five employees of your example are expanded within themselves, the cost to the business remains the same and the extra five bodies add little to the overall productivity and therefore are not required for the best result.

Yet, if their consciousness' are expanded or the neurons are firing up new pathways, then would they all not be valuable contributors of alternate thought processes that may help the company in ways not imagined before? Or, if the neurons are firing up new pathways of fantasy then the extra five members would certainly be considered valuable depending on the job at hand - such as creative/design area. However, if within a governmental office, then all ten employees will be milling around and nothing would have changed.

I've been in high pressure situations in creative software development companies. For quiet times we have a very linear process; task, specification, design, implementation, code review, integration.
Then the process repeats. But in the high pressure times, it's get something that works as quickly as possible. We'll have five engineers all working on the same problem and whoever gets something that works is the method we'll use. There's no time to have inhibitions. Tben once the problem has been fixed, we'll take time to pull it apart and refine it.

That's probably what's going on in the brain. Just trying random connections until a new stable state is found.

a reply to: stormcell

Wow.

This is one of the most interesting and simple theories about the brain I've ever seen.

Thanks for your reply!