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First evidence for higher state of consciousness found

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posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 07:39 AM
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originally posted by: elysiumfire
Bedlam:

Show me a state of "higher consciousness" that can be proven.


Indeed, methinks you'll be waiting for forever and a day for proof. There can be no higher state of consciousness, only a wider spectrum of perception.


But even then, is it "wider" or just "#ed up"? Is the perception something that corresponds to reality or not?




posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 07:40 AM
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a reply to: Bedlam

Bedlam.

I provided the actual study published in nature.

Maybe you should read it so all your babbling can stop.

Higher cosciousness is defined in both psychology and this study.

Try using the working definition from the field of science exploring the topic.

Take off your veil of ignorance.

Your deeply confused about what consciousness is and somehow think it's wisdom and intellect.


So when a Buddhist monk is reaching a higher state of cosciousness though meditation, the brain scans are very similar, do you believe he is learning to do math problems in meditation?

Sounds like a good week of research in psychology which is the science of the mind, would help your understanding greatly. You may even learn to use the right words for the right definitions.
edit on 20-4-2017 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 07:43 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
Your deeply confused about what consciousness is and somehow think it's wisdom and intellect.


If it's not, then you still haven't demonstrated that you have achieved it by getting high.



So when a Buddhist monk is reaching a higher state of cosciousness though meditation, the brain scans are very similar, do you believe he is learning to do math problems in meditation?


I somehow don't think a Buddhist monk would be doing peyote for insight. Do you?



Sounds like a good week of research in psychology which is the science of the mind, would help your understanding greatly. You may even learn to use the right words for the right definitions.


Point out the exact misuse, please.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 07:48 AM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: luthier
Your deeply confused about what consciousness is and somehow think it's wisdom and intellect.


If it's not, then you still haven't demonstrated that you have achieved it by getting high.



So when a Buddhist monk is reaching a higher state of cosciousness though meditation, the brain scans are very similar, do you believe he is learning to do math problems in meditation?


I somehow don't think a Buddhist monk would be doing peyote for insight. Do you?



Sounds like a good week of research in psychology which is the science of the mind, would help your understanding greatly. You may even learn to use the right words for the right definitions.


Point out the exact misuse, please.


Why don't you read the study, and look up the definition yourself. Seeing as the study is published.

Then you can argue with the scientists who did the study.

I noticed either your comprehension is lacking or you purposely created a strawman with the monk example so try to reread and explain how higher consciousness relates to being better at intellectual tasks.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 07:50 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
Why don't you read the study, and look up the definition yourself. Seeing as the study is published.

Then you can argue with the scientists who did the study.


I have, they never say "higher level of consciousness" just that there is un-coordinated incoherent activity.

Have you actually read it? And did you understand it?



I noticed either your comprehension is lacking or you purposely created a strawman with the monk example so try to reread and explain how higher consciousness relates to being better at intellectual tasks.


Obviously you don't understand the term "strawman". YOU brought that up, and YOU know it's untrue. It was a poor example, especially simple to throw back in your teeth. You might give it a bit more thought next time.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:01 AM
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Bedlam:

is it "wider" or just "#ed up"?


The study actually tells you it is wider..."Neuroscientists observed a sustained increase in neural signal diversity - a measure of the complexity of brain activity - of people under the influence of psychedelic drugs, compared with when they were in a normal waking state."


Is the perception something that corresponds to reality or not?


The question can be asked, but the answer is already known. Unless you can present an alternate reality, the one we perceive with our sense organs is the reality we have to accept. Of course, we have technologies that help to give us a wider perception of reality, but it is still the same reality.

Just because our organic sensory apparatus is fine-tuned to a narrow spectrum, it does not equate to there being an alternate reality to be perceived beyond the narrow strictures of that fine-tuning. It is the same reality being shown with a wider light.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:08 AM
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a reply to: Bedlam

Can you point out where I said a monk uses drugs. (Comprehension problem)

The question I asked is if you think a Buddhist was using higher consciousness to gain intellect which is your entire theme throughout this conversation. Your misunderstanding of consciousness.

Read the study. www.nature.com...

Here it is one more time.

If you don't get the lingo take some time to understand where psychology is with understanding consciousness.

You may want to research dream state and rem and wakeful consciousness studies as a back round. The information from those two foundations will help you understand why studying the mind in this conscious state is important.

It's doing things like unlocking traumatic memories buried in childhood of things like abuses. Where the psyche has created a mood disorder from the stress of trauma.

Of coarse you would have to read the case studies in links I provided to understand that.






edit on 20-4-2017 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:22 AM
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originally posted by: elysiumfire
Bedlam:

is it "wider" or just "#ed up"?


The study actually tells you it is wider..."Neuroscientists observed a sustained increase in neural signal diversity - a measure of the complexity of brain activity - of people under the influence of psychedelic drugs, compared with when they were in a normal waking state."


However, an increased signal diversity doesn't tell you a lot - you would get the same thing if you just had more noise.




Unless you can present an alternate reality, the one we perceive with our sense organs is the reality we have to accept. Of course, we have technologies that help to give us a wider perception of reality, but it is still the same reality.


My point exactly.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:25 AM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: elysiumfire
Bedlam:

is it "wider" or just "#ed up"?


The study actually tells you it is wider..."Neuroscientists observed a sustained increase in neural signal diversity - a measure of the complexity of brain activity - of people under the influence of psychedelic drugs, compared with when they were in a normal waking state."


However, an increased signal diversity doesn't tell you a lot - you would get the same thing if you just had more noise.




Unless you can present an alternate reality, the one we perceive with our sense organs is the reality we have to accept. Of course, we have technologies that help to give us a wider perception of reality, but it is still the same reality.


My point exactly.


Again your showing how much you don't understand.

And your noise example is complete rubish.

Do you accept psychological definition of consciousness?

Because it sure doesn't seem like you understand why the scientists are saying this is elevated consciousness.


Do you understand this.

These findings suggest that the sustained occurrence of psychedelic phenomenology constitutes an elevated level of consciousness - as measured by neural signal diversity.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:26 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Bedlam

Can you point out where I said a monk uses drugs. (Comprehension problem)


Not at all. You asked if I thought he was doing math problems. I asked if you thought he was doing drugs. Doing drugs to 'achieve a higher order of consciousness' is the point of the thread, and what you were responding to. It's sort of totally disingenuous to deny it.



The question I asked is if you think a Buddhist was using higher consciousness to gain intellect which is your entire theme throughout this conversation. Your misunderstanding of consciousness.


And the question I asked is if you thought he would be using hallucinogens to get there. Seeing as that's what you're proposing here. Your deflection of the point.

Seriously, it was a bad choice for you. I'd drop it. Or don't, I'll enjoy flogging you with it in more and more detail.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:32 AM
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originally posted by: luthier

Again your showing how much you don't understand.


And what YOU don't understand is neurobiology.



And your noise example is complete rubish.


And another thing you don't understand is signal theory.



Do you accept psychological definition of consciousness?

Because it sure doesn't seem like you understand why the scientists are saying this is elevated consciousness.


Do you understand this.


You don't understand 'signal diversity' at all, do you? Look, I understand you like doing drugs, they make you feel better, and you like that feeling. But so far, none of you have come up with any example of how this is "higher consciousness".

By "signal diversity", they mean for the same inputs you are getting non-coherent signals that don't correlate with the others. And that's a fine way of saying 'noise'. If you don't have some sort of increase in useful, recoverable processing of that data, then it's either bull# or noise, and you're contemplating your navel.

Show me how hallucinogens improve processing. I am still waiting. And so far all I've gotten is the rock music and 'you can't understand'.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:33 AM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Bedlam

Can you point out where I said a monk uses drugs. (Comprehension problem)


Not at all. You asked if I thought he was doing math problems. I asked if you thought he was doing drugs. Doing drugs to 'achieve a higher order of consciousness' is the point of the thread, and what you were responding to. It's sort of totally disingenuous to deny it.



The question I asked is if you think a Buddhist was using higher consciousness to gain intellect which is your entire theme throughout this conversation. Your misunderstanding of consciousness.


And the question I asked is if you thought he would be using hallucinogens to get there. Seeing as that's what you're proposing here. Your deflection of the point.

Seriously, it was a bad choice for you. I'd drop it. Or don't, I'll enjoy flogging you with it in more and more detail.


Sure. Let's go there.

Which monks. In what country. I can point to several that use drugs...in their culture they do not call them drugs. They are called medicine. Even in parts of Tibet. Cannabis and some mushrooms are used ritually. In a once in a lifetime situation, to deal with spirits (they have a shamanic culture as well), etc. They are not used daily. Or weekly etc. They are not crutches as you suggest.

The reason this research is so important. Is because consciousness which really simply means awareness of one self while thinking has access to parts of the brain that are normally not in communication with each other. Hence the being able to unlock things like ptsd trauma.

This is a very well understood field in my household so go ahead and try the flogging. I teach judo as well. (Metaphor)



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:39 AM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: luthier

Again your showing how much you don't understand.


And what YOU don't understand is neurobiology.



And your noise example is complete rubish.


And another thing you don't understand is signal theory.



Do you accept psychological definition of consciousness?

Because it sure doesn't seem like you understand why the scientists are saying this is elevated consciousness.


Do you understand this.


You don't understand 'signal diversity' at all, do you? Look, I understand you like doing drugs, they make you feel better, and you like that feeling. But so far, none of you have come up with any example of how this is "higher consciousness".

By "signal diversity", they mean for the same inputs you are getting non-coherent signals that don't correlate with the others. And that's a fine way of saying 'noise'. If you don't have some sort of increase in useful, recoverable processing of that data, then it's either bull# or noise, and you're contemplating your navel.

Show me how hallucinogens improve processing as . I am still waiting. And so far all I've gotten is the rock music and 'you can't understand'.


Consciousness has nothing to do with processing in intellectual tasks like your suggesting.

Yes I understand signal theory which is why I am laughing.

This is published to all the experts in neuroscience.

And it isn't the first one.

Nice ad hominem.

I don't "like doing drugs".

I work with veterans, my wife is a research professor, it's a subject I enjoy.

Sounds like your hung up on the street name of the device, even though your OK with using other pharmacology as long as man made it

Can you explain why the scientists who published this paper are saying this is elevated consciousness?

Just why they say it. Not that you believe their claim but do you even get why they are saying this?

Again go back to wakeful vs dreaming consciousness studies and where this all fits.

Your hung up on signal diversity because you aren't understanding the mind and psychological aspect.

Which there are clinical examples I believe in the mood disorder treatment link I provided.
edit on 20-4-2017 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:41 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
Here it is one more time.


Have you actually read it?

Really read it, and not just to the degree of "I like psychedelics, and these guys appear to agree with me"?

Their thesis is this - if you're anesthetized, your Perturbational Complexity Index is low. If you take hallucinogens, your PCI is high, higher than if you're awake and not taking hallucinogens. Therefore (and here's the illogical leap), you are more conscious if you're high on L.S.D.

It's where you ought to be raising an eyebrow. And you're not.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:42 AM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

But no one seems to be able to bring this magical wonderous insight back from the land of intoxication. Or if they do, it's bull#.


So no matter what you'll continue to disbelief what anyone says that does not fit your belief, huh?

I ask you kindly to leave this thread since you have no experience in psychedelics nor are trying to discuss the subject or learn anything new as the rest of us.

You're just discrediting the study making your points and opinions more important than the study.

No one will prove you, here or in any other place, that the higher conscious state is a better state or it is something real or delusional. Because no one can, yet.

This is one of the first studies in this area and if you want to find out the answers you're seeking, I suggest you start researching the subject - which CLEARLY you haven't done yet.


But you can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm open to critics and different point of views, as long as your intentions are good.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:43 AM
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a reply to: Bedlam

Oh my.

That's what you read.

I feel very bad for you to be so locked in.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:43 AM
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Bedlam:

However, an increased signal diversity doesn't tell you a lot - you would get the same thing if you just had more noise.


My dear Bedlam, your original question was...

...is it "wider" or just "#ed up"? Is the perception something that corresponds to reality or not?


I posited to you that there is only one reality, but that it extends beyond the narrow spectrum of our sensory organs., and that our technologies enhance and extend the reach of our senses. The conclusion being is that no matter where we shine the light of our curiosity, it will always alight on the same reality we experience in our daily life. All we are doing is uncovering different facets of that reality, not alternate realities.

Your response to me was simply an agreement to what I stated. You could have simply wrote..."I agree."



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:45 AM
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originally posted by: luthier

Can you explain why the scientists who published this paper are saying this is elevated consciousness?


Yes, the guys in the study are well known for doing studies on hallucinogens, it's their focus.

And they're making an unsupportable leap by (mis)using PCI this way.




Just why they say it. Not that you believe their claim but do you even get why they are saying this?


Yes, they're using PCI in a way that isn't provable.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:46 AM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: Raggedyman
why have this extra intelligence if we can't use it, why evolve something that we don't use, unless we are de evolving



Which 'extra intelligence' are you on about?


Whenever terms like "higher state of consciousness" or "extra intelligence" they're referring to the opening of the third eye/pineal gland. Kind of like in X Men how professor X had a special ability in his brain.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:49 AM
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originally posted by: vinifalou

originally posted by: Bedlam

But no one seems to be able to bring this magical wonderous insight back from the land of intoxication. Or if they do, it's bull#.


So no matter what you'll continue to disbelief what anyone says that does not fit your belief, huh?


Show me the one example of how an objectively real insight or performance improvement occurs.



I ask you kindly to leave this thread since you have no experience in psychedelics nor are trying to discuss the subject or learn anything new as the rest of us.


No. I ask you kindly for the example of mentational improvement that should be so simple for you to do.



You're just discrediting the study making your points and opinions more important than the study.


The authors haven't shown that PCI is relevant in showing that being on hallucinogens is more 'conscious' than not. It's a leap that tends to affirm their bias. But it's not clearly supported by study.



No one will prove you, here or in any other place, that the higher conscious state is a better state or it is something real or delusional. Because no one can, yet.


My point exactly.



This is one of the first studies in this area and if you want to find out the answers you're seeking, I suggest you start researching the subject - which CLEARLY you haven't done yet.


No doubt because I don't agree with you.




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