Dove Soap Ad Features Transgender Mom, Facebook Censors Critics

a reply to: ColdWisdom

Gender dysphoria happens when the conscious self-awareness wiring in the brain that deals with gender identity identifies with the social construct of gender that is different than the sex that the body has developed.

The vast majority of animals don't have the same conscious self-awareness that we do, or the same social construct of gender to identify with. Because of that, they may not ever try to chew off their own penis in order to better identify as a female when they have a male body.

Sexual attraction, which is much more basic and instinctual and doesn't involve self-awareness, is a different kettle of fish, so to speak. We do see homosexual tendencies in the animal kingdom from time to time.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan


Some folks are more absolute and extreme in their views. As you know, 90% of the populace doesn't care one way or another about much anything that isn't directly effecting them.

You mean 90% of the populace is impolite and unfriendly? That's pretty sad.

You can't judge people you don't know. Everyone is facing their own battles....share the tolerance a little, eh?

Nah, there's no excuse for being a deliberate jerk when no one is being a jerk to you first.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

They english language is a beautiful thing and yes, I do have a pet peeve over those would deface it. But also I fear the formation of newspeak and language designed to limit or hinder freedom of thought.

I think if we became friends, I would tailor my language for you. But I'm not going to do so because you demand it of me, just as I would hope you wouldn't tailor your language because others demanded it of you.

You're very smug, snarky and condescending about it though dude, your a word snob. Not everyone feels the way you do about it so it is not wise to go around beating people down with your words because being nice would friggin kill you. We can either get along or not it's up to you and how you decide to use your vernacular prowess.

a reply to: kaylaluv

why do i feel like we are doing another version of "there's a hole in the bucket, dear liza" here?

a reply to: kaylaluv

I don't know much about the scientific consensus around gender dysphoria, but what you explained sounds like those suffering from it dislike their body in inverse proportion to how much they prefer the societal norms afforded to the other sex. I don't want to say without confirmation from a trans-person that the reality of their body invokes hatred of it, or compels them enough to want to change it, but the fact that reassignment surgery is a thing supports the idea.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Teikiatsu

LOL ... now the Dictionaries are "fake news."

This just doesn't stop, does it?

I bet if you go back to the OED from 1920 you'd get yet a different definition.

Go find one, we'll see.

Also, see the fallacy of 'appeal to definition.'

Strawman

Strawman? You just quoted a dictionary to support the claims of your argument. That's the DEFINITION of the fallacy, LOL.

As far as what the OED definition of gender is ... is irrelevant. What you think the word means ... is irrelevant.

You can call gender identity whatever you want ... and that's your personal definition ... it doesn't mean anything to anyone else.

Such trivial crap. Picking apart my use of gender and sex like this crap even matters. Maybe this is why people are rejecting progressive values because you care about stupid crap like pronouns and social issues that are irrelevant.

Just like seeing a grown man in a bra.... Irrelevant to my day

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

You're very smug, snarky and condescending about it though dude, your a word snob. Not everyone feels the way you do about it so it is not wise to go around beating people down with your words because being nice would friggin kill you. We can either get along or not it's up to you and how you decide to use your vernacular prowess.

Guilty as charged. I'm an admitted language nazi.

But it's much more than just standing in defence of language. Where I'm from, Human Rights commissions state that refusing to use preferred pronouns constitute gender harassment. This stipulates by government threat and coercion not only words that one cannot say, but words that one has to say.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

You're very smug, snarky and condescending about it though dude, your a word snob. Not everyone feels the way you do about it so it is not wise to go around beating people down with your words because being nice would friggin kill you. We can either get along or not it's up to you and how you decide to use your vernacular prowess.

Guilty as charged. I'm an admitted language nazi.

But it's much more than just standing in defence of language. Where I'm from, Human Rights commissions state that refusing to use preferred pronouns constitute gender harassment. This stipulates by government threat and coercion not only words that one cannot say, but words that one has to say.

Yeah it sucks that your government would stifle your ability to speak freely like that but that shouldn't give you license to hold a grudge against Trans people and treat them poorly just to make a point. It's like because you're not allowed to say it wherever you live you come online and do it just because you can. Imagine being in my shoes when I look, talk, move, smell, act and live like a woman and people are ganging up on me calling me sir, he, him, it, tranny, freak, mentally ill, and this is coming from all kinds of different directions. How would you feel/react? I have just as much right to be offensive with someone if they take that route with me. I'm just trying to live and it doesn't really come up in the real world for me but I still call it out when I see it here then I'm told what amounts to "shut up and get back in the closet freak"

It's tough being Trans I tell ya and folks think that we choose this for ourselves. I tried to fight and suppress it for 30 years and it obviously didn't work now I'm happier than I have ever been. Why would anyone want to begrudge me that and treat me like crap because they don't agree with the choice of clothes I wear and how I talk or who I love. It's just wrong and we have to stand up for ourselves and be loud so as to get awareness and make it stop so the younger generation can have it better than we did.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

I don't doubt for a second the troubles of trans-people. I used to work with at-risk youth and many of them were trans. The issue of the prevalence of suicide within the trans-community, the bullying and harassment, is irrefutable. I empathize with you, and I am willing to make concessions regarding pro-nouns with people, whether trans or not, if they show me equal respect and kindness.

I just don't think that bullying and harassing and sanctioning others to conform to another's language is fair. In fact, it is tyrannical.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

In fact, it is tyrannical.

Isn't that a bit of an overreaction to something like me saying "excuse me could you please address me as ma'am or you can even call me (insert name here)?"

Try to separate the individual from the establishment.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I look at it as the person has a dysphoria between their awareness of self in the brain and their awareness that their physical body doesn't match what their brain is telling them. We have been unsuccessful at changing the brain (it's been tried over the years), but there has been success in changing the body to match the brain's awareness. It's not so much hating the body (although that can be a side affect), as it is being distraught that the two aren't matching up.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

Isn't that a bit of an overreaction to something like me saying "excuse me could you please address me as ma'am or you can even call me (insert name here)?"

Try to separate the individual from the establishment.

I personally wouldn't mind if you asked nicely.

a reply to: kaylaluv

In the past when I have intimated that transgenderism is a disorder i was taken to task over it.

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe
Have they removed all critics of the ad or just the the trolls?

They don't need to remove everybody, just the ones that get the most attention.

On social media platforms like Twitter/Facebook/Reddit this type of agenda-driven content is heavily astroturfed. All the "top" comments are scripted tripe straight out of a liberal textbook, but if you filter the results to see the most popular or the newest comments in real time you pretty much get a pulse of what people are really thinking.

The internet has become so #ing red pilled since 2016, people know whats going on and are no longer afraid to point it out. It's a revolution.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The prevailing theory is that it is not a mental illness, but a neurological disorder that happened during development in utero. Could there someday be a way to physically change the brain through surgery to cure the dysphoria? Who knows. Would there someday be some drug that will physically change the brain to cure the dysphoria? Who knows. Would someone with the dysphoria want their brain changed (which changes their whole sense of self) instead of changing their body? That's a good question. I can't answer that because I haven't had to live with it.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The prevailing theory is that it is not a mental illness, but a neurological disorder that happened during development in utero. Could there someday be a way to physically change the brain through surgery to cure the dysphoria? Who knows. Would there someday be some drug that will physically change the brain to cure the dysphoria? Who knows. Would someone with the dysphoria want their brain changed (which changes their whole sense of self) instead of changing their body? That's a good question. I can't answer that because I haven't had to live with it.

as far as intellectual value, this post is likely the best post in the entire thread.



Being smart isn't knowing all the answers....its also knowing the right questions.

originally posted by: JDmOKI

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Teikiatsu

LOL ... now the Dictionaries are "fake news."

This just doesn't stop, does it?

I bet if you go back to the OED from 1920 you'd get yet a different definition.

Go find one, we'll see.

Also, see the fallacy of 'appeal to definition.'

Strawman

Strawman? You just quoted a dictionary to support the claims of your argument. That's the DEFINITION of the fallacy, LOL.

As far as what the OED definition of gender is ... is irrelevant. What you think the word means ... is irrelevant.

You can call gender identity whatever you want ... and that's your personal definition ... it doesn't mean anything to anyone else.

Such trivial crap. Picking apart my use of gender and sex like this crap even matters. Maybe this is why people are rejecting progressive values because you care about stupid crap like pronouns and social issues that are irrelevant.

Just like seeing a grown man in a bra.... Irrelevant to my day

Another post that says nothing. Yes, there is a difference between gender and sex. Yes, gender identity is a big issue for a lot of people. No one is "rejecting progressive values" and I'm not a "progressive."

Post something other than garden variety right-wing extremist rhetoric and you might get a more fulsome response. As it is you want to be insulting on this issue... so what?

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The prevailing theory is that it is not a mental illness, but a neurological disorder that happened during development in utero. Could there someday be a way to physically change the brain through surgery to cure the dysphoria? Who knows. Would there someday be some drug that will physically change the brain to cure the dysphoria? Who knows. Would someone with the dysphoria want their brain changed (which changes their whole sense of self) instead of changing their body? That's a good question. I can't answer that because I haven't had to live with it.

Right, and there may be a gene/hormonal procedure to reverse homosexuality. Let's see what that would mean to me in my life.

I would have spent about 35 years learning to adjust to what was innately natural for me, that is, to be sexually/romantically attracted far more to males than to females. My current partner of 11 years would just be ... out of luck, I guess.

I know that the right-wing tries to denigrate everything associated with "identity," sometimes with some reason. Yet, there's a more subtle point here ... in our current mechanistic worldview ... everything that is "out of the norm" represents something "broken" or "wrong" or "abnormal" or "miscoded" or whatnot.

Yet, there's good evidence that alternate sexual orientations and gender identities have been with us humans for a very, very long time. Yes, let's say we find otu that a certain hormonal level in the embryo at weeks 3-8 controls either gender or sexual orientation.

Would I want that fixed? That's like asking me if I want a lobotomy.

It's just not as simplistic as cause effect. Being gay or trans* is not a disease (or disorder, or condition, or malady.)

FWIW

a reply to: Gryphon66

With all the issues that people face with LGBT lives...why would you want to wish that for your children? Not that im saying you are....but if you could "correct" that in the womb, would you not want to?

I mean, being 7' tall is a bonus in a lot of ways...but many large folks would be happier to be sized more "normally" as it makes life much easier.

Nonetheless, i doubt much can really be done in the womb regarding sexuality. For body dysphoria, im sure much could be done. But I believe sexuality is mostly epigenetic in origin, arising from environmental stressor felt by the parent, or maybe the child themselves.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Gryphon66

With all the issues that people face with LGBT lives...why would you want to wish that for your children? Not that im saying you are....but if you could "correct" that in the womb, would you not want to?

I mean, being 7' tall is a bonus in a lot of ways...but many large folks would be happier to be sized more "normally" as it makes life much easier.

Nonetheless, i doubt much can really be done in the womb regarding sexuality. For body dysphoria, im sure much could be done. But I believe sexuality is mostly epigenetic in origin, arising from environmental stressor felt by the parent, or maybe the child themselves.

Because 99 percent of what LGBT folks "go through" is because our society is backward and hateful. What fing difference does it make who I lust after/love/live with? What difference does it make if I think I'm a woman, or that I don't have any gender or that I identify as a fricking potato chip looking for some dip?

The answer is, except for the bias and prejudice that we are going to have to grow out of as a species at some point, there's no difference.

Gender dysphoria is just another allusion to gender disease. There are not and never have been only two GENDERS (or sexes, for that matter) and cultures ACROSS THE WORLD have recognized this fact and some have even APPRECIATED and CELEBRATED those who have different gender identities.

The "medical model" generated in the late 19th century Europe and America says that everything that is different from the norm is disease.

It's not. The complexities of human evolution and of the concurrent development of human society tells us that.

Examples are Native American Two-Spirits, the Five Genders of Sulawesi Island (Indonesia), the Hindu hijras ... etc. etc.

There are dozens of other examples, those are just the ones that spring to my mind.

These have been around in some cases for THOUSANDS of years ... and they are (were) integrated into their societies.

Neither alternate sexual orientations or gender identities are diseases in any way.