Is Jesus God, or is the whole trinity thing bunk?

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Well, as was mentioned earlier, the Trinitarian view became the offical view after the Council of Nicaea, which said that the followers of Arrius were wrong in their beliefs. The only Christians following Arrius (which is now called the "Arian Heresy" are the (surprise!) Unitarians.

This is a misrepresentation of what transpired. The decree was against Arius and his teachings. The argument continued until 553 when the decree was made to anathematize anyone who spoke against the trinity.

well here is my info...

God is God and in God form and Jesus is God in HUMAN form and the Holy Spirit is the LOVE that God has for Jesus and vice-versa...

Originally posted by Hailthekingoflights So how can yo believe part of what the bible is saying, as in the part about the disciples running, peter cutting the gaurds ear, etc..., but you will not take into account the transforming of the disciples into apostles.

You jump to conclusions. There are far to many contradictions within the Bible, both testaments, and too many spurious details behind the sham of it have come to the public through archaeologcal findings and dusty libraries giving up their secrets for me to believe any of it anymore. And I will admit for the first time in here, I used to believe from as long as I can remember into my childhood. But I read the book too many times, so much so that years ago I started to notice the contradictory passages, and being one of those detail types I had to investigate.

The answers to the curious who have questions are right before their noses, only when one can honestly confront themsleves with the questions will they find the answers. You obviously have no questions. There is nothing I write that I have not learned by myself from going back and forth between the texts, reasoning it out and reading only the words written by the church fathers, the emperors they blessed as being holy and divinely chosen, and the historic accounts available. In other words, my thoughts have not been tainted by the ideas of others, nor can they be refuted, for they are based on solid evidence. The evidence of that is seen in the personal attacks of your post as you veer away from answering my points directly.

So if you believe in God, you know that God requires a sacrifice for sins.

And this is what you do not understand, this is where your doctrine clouds your rationale. I do not need to believe in a religion to believe in God. What part of that is so difficult for you to understand? Religion is nothing more than a noun created by man that binds you to the doctrine as set out by other men. God has no religion, he is who he is, he made us all, and to believe he pits us against each other is to believe that he hates some of those he created. And I am frankly offended that humans seem to think it necessary to compartmentalize themselves according to what man tells them. God is in your head, your heart, your very fibre of being. Seek him in those places and you loose the chains of man and the devil you so fear.

If you fail to do that, then I leave the slitting of throats of any sort to you. Read what you write here;

Have you cut the throats of any spotless lambs recently? What about cattle and goats have you done that?

Yours are not the words of a person believing in God, they are filled with enmity, hate and intolerance. They are words you spout by virtue of them being drilled into you by man. Words that scream an intent to lash out and hurt because you need to console yourself and make yourself believe that I am wrong. If it helps your wounded spirit and shaken faith to heal then believe what you will.

Do you have a secret temple with the arc and the spirit of God in it that the rest of the world doesn't know about.

Yes I do, the temple has been described above. But if it pleases you and makes you feel Christian or godlike or superior to resort to this trash, then knock yourself out to comfort yourself as you find fitting, you fool only you.

The rest of your screed is more of the same, emanating from a pouty person lashing out angrily because s/he is p****d off. You will get over it, and if not, according to your own faith you will burn in hell.



[edit on 2/4/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

lol, i liked the end of that Somewhereinbetween, that was pretty funny. I personally believe as long as you believe in a God of some sort you are cool, but i dunno cuz im not God. However, i too disagree with something the bible states. For instance, in Acts, when the apostles go around killing that man and woman because they lied to God, i think that is unnecessary. I say WWJD! I think it was quite hypocritical of them to do that, as it is not their place to end the life of someone, if they lied to God let them deal with it with God. God will forgive for anything, i personally believe, as long as you are sincere about it. You had some good points about God pitting us against each other, i don't see him doing that either.

God is God creator , Jesus is Jesus Messiah and Son of God , Many believe the third part of the trinity is man and that the trinity is a symbolism of a contract between the three.

Woah! listen.....jesus (if he ever existed) was a human just as anybody else, we are all sons and daughters of GOD, god has no name! Maybe jesus was just an older soul with faith or a psychic.....just like boudha or mohamed or any other god related character.....There is no difference between the muslims god, the buddhists god or native god! Religions wants to have fight! It's part of a controled agenda! It's all human.....

It's not soooo hard to understand!!!!! I'm tired of saying that!
Why can't people just beleive in GOD and not all those man-made proofs and theories...intolerance towards other religions and misinterpretation...

We are ALL part of God, we should all be one, no matter what we worship or what your parents told you to worship since generation without asking themselves questions

Be spiritual, not religious, love unconditionaly, respect others and have faith in the "source" that created ALL of us

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Originally posted by Amelia
Woah! listen.....jesus (if he ever existed) was a human just as anybody else, we are all sons and daughters of GOD, god has no name! Maybe jesus was just an older soul with faith or a psychic.....just like boudha or mohamed or any other god related character.....There is no difference between the muslims god, the buddhists god or native god! Religions wants to have fight! It's part of a controled agenda! It's all human.....

It's not soooo hard to understand!!!!! I'm tired of saying that!
Why can't people just beleive in GOD and not all those man-made proofs and theories...intolerance towards other religions and misinterpretation...

We are ALL part of God, we should all be one, no matter what we worship or what your parents told you to worship since generation without asking themselves questions

Be spiritual, not religious, love unconditionaly, respect others and have faith in the "source" that created ALL of us

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Not all true Jesus is a true offspring given the powers of his devinity by God , we are children only by the fact that got says he cherishes us as his creation and therefore are his children , that is why we cant come to the final closeness and forgivness of God unles its through Jesus Christ The Messiah and Lamb of God who was and is the only BEGOTTEN SON or birthed of GOD son.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta

Not all true Jesus is a true offspring given the powers of his devinity by God , we are children only by the fact that got says he cherishes us as his creation and therefore are his children , that is why we cant come to the final closeness and forgivness of God unles its through Jesus Christ The Messiah and Lamb of God who was and is the only BEGOTTEN SON or birthed of GOD son.

Really.....you wanna beleive that you are not as gifted as Jesus?! Who told you that?! We are ALL sons and daughters of GOD....Everybody! Your brains controls your body dear, listen to your heart and you'll see, just like me, that everybody is a "little jesus"!
The bible was MISINTERPRETED....if you don't wanna beleive that you are gifted and love by god, that is your little problem...if you wanna beleive in a man that lived 2000 years before and not YOURSELF, your own soul, your own abilities....you miss a LOT....Jesus want YOU to do it, then do it

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
unconditional love I send you

Originally posted by Amelia

Originally posted by drbryankkruta

Not all true Jesus is a true offspring given the powers of his devinity by God , we are children only by the fact that got says he cherishes us as his creation and therefore are his children , that is why we cant come to the final closeness and forgivness of God unles its through Jesus Christ The Messiah and Lamb of God who was and is the only BEGOTTEN SON or birthed of GOD son.

Really.....you wanna beleive that you are not as gifted as Jesus?! Who told you that?! We are ALL sons and daughters of GOD....Everybody! Your brains controls your body dear, listen to your heart and you'll see, just like me, that everybody is a "little jesus"!
The bible was MISINTERPRETED....if you don't wanna beleive that you are gifted and love by god, that is your little problem...if you wanna beleive in a man that lived 2000 years before and not YOURSELF, your own soul, your own abilities....you miss a LOT....Jesus want YOU to do it, then do it

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
unconditional love I send you

no you are way off. Jesus was definetly born of a virgin through God concieving him. Jesus definetly states that he has been alive forever ever, and that is older than any of us. Jesus also tells us the way to be saved. However, what does ANY of that have to do with not believing in yourself? The whole point is to try to be the best possible person you can and to love and cherish God for everything he has done for us. I think you should go to a bible study, not to have the religion imposed on you but to actually learn what christians believe.

Originally posted by Amelia

Really.....you wanna beleive that you are not as gifted as Jesus?! Who told you that?!

God did he said Jesus was his only begotten or son of his fruits, also God said only through the name of his only begotten SON JESUS is salvation and forgivness, I an not the savior that God said Jesus is. Therefore he is higher than I and more gifted , read the bible search the fine deviders man of earth are son and daughters through creation not by the Birth Right of God.

The bible was MISINTERPRETED....if you don't wanna beleive that you are gifted and love by god, that is your little problem...if you wanna beleive in a man that lived 2000 years before and not YOURSELF, your own soul, your own abilities....you miss a LOT....Jesus want YOU to do it, then do it

We are all gifted but have no more than the limitations of our creation , God made us but didnt instill in us the Righteousness and Birth right of Jesus nor the clean and pure nature of existance he was born to he was without sin till he took our sin , we were born into sin and did come from the joining of sinners, not from the fruit of God.



Send not your unconditional love to me for I am not God or Jesus those are the true rightful recepients or your unconditional love for if you give it to anyone else then know you have placed that which you put forth as unconditional love has placed that person above God or at least at the same level which God tells us not to do for no other thing or person shall be put before God and Jesus even love for yourself.

Originally posted by Corinthas
This is exactly the dilaemma chistians face:

We never DIRECTLY recieved word from Jesus, all we have is 2nd hand reports by Matt, Mark et al. some of these were written some 60 years after the events with Jesus.
[edit on 31/1/2005 by Corinthas]

You see there is something called the Holy Spirit which confirms God and Christ to every man and woman that will receive the Holy Spirit. This is a mystery to those who do not believe in God or those who do not accept Christ as their savior from sin. When you believe in Christ as your redeemer from sin what you are belieivng in is what was said or documented in the Bible. What is cleary said is that if you believe in Jesus Christ and ask God to receive His Holy Spirit He will send it to you.

Now when the Holy Spirit comes on you to reside in you - you will have no doubt that God is God. However, here is the tricky part, you cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless you claim Christ as your Lord and Savior. So we see here this is a two-edged sword. You as a man who says, "I don't believe in God or Jesus," in fact you are just stating that you simply do not understand God and Jesus.

You can never receive the Holy Spirit which manifests the truth and glory of God to you without first believing and accepting the person of Jesus Christ as your redeemer from sin, which means you can never have a true relationship with God, feel the power of God, hear the voice of God, receive the gifs of God etc... Those who are in Christ understand simply that God and Christ are real becasue they are in direct link with Him. This can never be understood by someone who does not believe in Christ, just as you never knew what it was like to fly before you actually got in a plane and left the gorund. You may have viewed it from afar but never really understood until you were 10,000 feet up.

These are simple things and when someone says God does not exist those who are Chrisitans merely laugh at this statement - for it is the highest ignorance and unfortuante that any human could not have such basic knowledge. What is basic for many is difficult for others. Clearly then what keeps a man or woman from receiving the Holy Spirit of God and a relationship with God is pride. Because it's a clear decision to accept that Jesus Christ died for your sins and simply belieivng the words and saying, "I believe this," is what gives you salvation and the ability to receive the Holy Spirit of God. It is pride that keeps a man or woman from belieiving in something you choose not to embrace, or to question, or argue, and that is why you lack that which you shall never understand.

Giving a thesis on why Christianity, or why Jesus is not real from someone who does not believe in God or has not received the Holy Spirit of God is like a child lecturing on warfare having never served in war. You are just babbling and drooling about things you do not understand and can never understand until you actually believe.

God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are separate entities but the same. Which is very difficult to understand with a human mind that three can be different but one of the same just does not compute - but yet it is. However the theory that Jesus was God on the earth as if God was not a spirt in Heaven while Christ was on the earth is false and a misunderstanding and allegorizing of scripture. God is God, Jesus is Jesus, the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, but they are all one as those who believe in Christ are one of the same body.

I would also like to add that it is not just believing in Christ but your experience you undergo in doing so. Those who will not choose to believe in what the scripture says will simply not EXPERIENCE the power and glory of God and that is very unfortunate.

Any way...that is your religion and cannot be discussed

I beleive in god and happy like that.....I send love to everybody even if you don't want it, it will go to your heart and you'll feel it!

I love you no matter what because we are all one

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Originally posted by Amelia
Any way...that is your religion and cannot be discussed

I beleive in god and happy like that.....I send love to everybody even if you don't want it, it will go to your heart and you'll feel it!

I love you no matter what because we are all one

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

That is not what was said my dear I said unconditional love is for God and Jesus alone but, I will say even I love and recieve love for all whom are brother and sisters, friend or foe, but reserved is my unconditional love for those who are the only worthy of it. Even my wife and kids do not get the type of love that is due God and Jesus alone.

[edit on 7/2/2005 by drbryankkruta]

Originally posted by vincere7You see there is something called the Holy Spirit which confirms God and Christ to every man and woman that will receive the Holy Spirit.

There is that in name only and only to those who wish it to be so. There is only one God, he is singular, he does not divide himself for no man, nor by any man's design or interpretation. And he in your own Bible tells you umpteen times, that he, and only he, is the saviour, and besides him there is no other; that he is the first and the last and besides him there is no other. so what is with this man myth you so wish to revere?

So you see, no matter the conjouring you may do to make Jesus a part of him, Jesus is not a part of him. God has never told you he will send himself, to redeem you, no matter how you try to manipulate the scriptures, you will not find that in the OT.

So...

This is a mystery to those who do not believe in God or those who do not accept Christ as their savior from sin.

There is no mystery, for Jesus as portrayed, was just a man.

Now when the Holy Spirit comes on you to reside in you - you will have no doubt that God is God.

That is quite the stretch. How empty was your life to have not believed in God before someone said Jesus was your redeemer? God resides in me, and Jesus is not an intermediary I acknowledge. Next you await the comforter as yet another hierarchial position between you an God, as foretold by Jesus, I assume? How ludicrous! How much removed do you wish to be from your creator?

However, here is the tricky part, you cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless you claim Christ as your Lord and Savior.

One cannot recieve that which does not exist.

So we see here this is a two-edged sword. You as a man who says, "I don't believe in God or Jesus," in fact you are just stating that you simply do not understand God and Jesus.

In fact I state you misunderstand God to think he needs help to bring you home.

You can never receive the Holy Spirit which manifests the truth and glory of God to you

One cannot receive that which does not exist.

Those who are in Christ understand simply that God and Christ are real becasue they are in direct link with Him.

They understand that they want it to be real. They know of nothing to prove this save their belief.

This can never be understood by someone who does not believe in Christ,

Of course it cannot, one thinking is logical, the other, yours, is wishful. I do not understand the easter bunny leaving chocolate eggs either.

just as you never knew what it was like to fly before you actually got in a plane and left the gorund.

What a silly analolgy. Are you trying to say that the billions of devout believers in God prior to the AD years never knew God? I predict 'a but' without substantiation in the making.

These are simple things and when someone says God does not exist those who are Chrisitans merely laugh at this statement - for it is the highest ignorance and unfortuante that any human could not have such basic knowledge.

Odd, I see it the other way around. I still await someone, anyone, to explain to me why God would need an intermediary to earn his love after their having loved and believing in him. He is God after all, correct? If he wanted to prove himself, he wouldn't need to send a human who claims to be his son, he would manifest himself in ways neither you or I could doubt, and just declare: I am God, and "I, even I, am the Lord, and beside me there is no saviour."

Who on earth would doubt a vision seen globally in the heavens?

The rest of your argument is just more of the same baseless doctrine.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

There is no mystery, for Jesus as portrayed, was just a man.

Wrong even outside biblical texts there are people like the historian I think I mentioned earlier , who said that some unnatural or supernatural acts where completed , such as healings, and etc.

However, here is the tricky part, you cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless you claim Christ as your Lord and Savior.

One cannot recieve that which does not exist.

Well true and not true, I have heard it said by some learned associates in the Biblical Scholar relm that the Holy Ghost cant work one of two ways
either it's the influence in your heart and comfort in your soul when you arereleased from sin, or they say it can be another explanation of Jesus transformed in directive, from savior to savior/guide or in simpler terms your concience as influenced by the will of God to warn you of danger and to run away or fight it.

In fact I state you misunderstand God to think he needs help to bring you home.

Well yes and no again, God has the ultimate power and can do anything.
But no in the fact God himself put a clause in his own laws that says even though he has the power to destroy or save, that he will not interfere with the path you take and that if you wish to take the path to his presence you may only do so through salvation by the blood of Jesus, lokk at it this way , "no flesh shall be justified by deeds alone for God searches the heart and mind for all those things good or evil and gives accordingly, for forgiveness and salvation is only in those whom call apon the name of the only BEGOTTON SON OF GOD, and you make be asking who the name of the ONLY BEGOTTON SON he is the CHRIST JESUS". So is the law of God help through the blood of Jesus is involved in his law and God doesnt break his own laws.



[edit on 8/2/2005 by drbryankkruta]

Originally posted by drbryankkruta]Well true and not true, I have heard it said by some learned associates in the Biblical Scholar relm that the Holy Ghost cant work one of two ways either it's the influence in your heart and comfort in your soul when you arereleased from sin, or they say it can be another explanation of Jesus transformed in directive, from savior to savior/guide or in simpler terms your concience as influenced by the will of God to warn you of danger and to run away or fight it.

First of all let us understand something here, before you go quoting Biblical scholars to me. These are people who decided to pursue this realm of study because they already believe in the religion of their choice, hence, the bias was there already. Now I can guarantee you that since you yourself claim to be a theologian, you were not introduced into all of the writings of the church fathers, nor all of the apochrypha both Christian and Jewish, nor were you made to study the Qu'ran, and if you were, because your path was Christian, neither you nor your teachers discussed them without bias. And what is exactly is a Biblical scholar? One who studies the Bible within an institution and is taught to interpret a book written by less scholarly men of thousands of years ago? Or one who has undertaken years of research, work and study of every document they could get their hands on and has done so in the interest of understanding the whys, wherefores and the centuries of debate? I will tell you, that it would be the latter, not the former, for the Pope is quite a Biblical scholar, and I have absolutely no use for his ideas.

Now, as for what you have heard it said, I say this in return; those are the words of a biased and blind fool, said under the guise of protecting their own faith with the attempt to diminish the critics in their own eyes, and intimidate them. Those are words uttered out of pure ignorance and frustration, for it is easier to make oneself feel elevated above the rest by just saying; oh they don't get it because they don't have it.

Well, I want you to go back to this so called scholar, and tell him that I say, there is no hell, purgatory or limbo, there never was, there never will be. God did not make people he created to hate half of them and use others to exact his revenge, then send those he detested to burn forever; he has never needed an intermediary to tell us what he says and what he teaches, because he made us, and as sure as he made little green apples too with the core inside, he placed his core within us. His core is the undeniable ability to know good from evil and feel that aversion to the latter coming from a place within soul. You tell him for me, that any man or woman who claims to have special dispensation from God and feels they have been chosen to tell others who, how and why they should seek God is deluded into believing that grace comes from without and not within. Then I want you to tell him, were they what they believe the are, it would not have taken 500 years and a king's mother to declare Christianity the divinely inspired faith and in so doing slay dozens of priests and bishops who did not agree. And make sure he understands, that God's word is divine and pure, and that it is not possible that he would allow it to be corrupted, that is he placed it within us all, at the ready to be tapped into.

When you are through passing on that message, then tell him, that I defend God, and want to know why he defends a man whom others claim to have said he was God.

You see what you and your so called scholars are trying to say is that we can love God with all of our hearts and minds, and spend a lifetime successfully fighting off our own demons, but unless we accept Jesus, he will throw us into a fire of damnation and torment for all eternity. Well, that is not a God I want in my heart, and it is certainly not the loving, teaching God currently residing there.


Now, I am going to end this post to introduce your Jesus and your God to you in two following. For what follows first is a writing that circulated as gospel truth for 200 years, written by Clement quoting Peter and his vision of the end days. Followed by the benevolence shown women in your God's world.


[edit on 2/8/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Apocalypse of Peter without notations:


What kind of sick depraved mind wrote this vengeful and dark homily in teh name of God?

B

THE AKHMIM FRAGMENT

which I should prefer to call Fragment II of the Gospel of Peter. It begins abruptly in a discourse of our Lord.

1 Many of them shall be false prophets, and shall teach ways and diverse doctrines of perdition. 2 And they shall become sons of perdition. 3 And then shall God come unto my faithful ones that hunger and thirst and are afflicted and prove their souls in this life, and shall judge the sons of iniquity.

4 And the Lord added and said: Let us go unto the mountain (and) pray. 5 And going with him, we the twelve disciples besought him that he would show us one of our righteous brethren that had departed out of the world, that we might see what manner of men they are in their form, and take courage, and encourage also the men that should hear us.

6 And as we prayed, suddenly there appeared two men standing before the Lord (perhaps add, to the east) upon whom we were not able to look. 7 For there issued from their countenance a ray as of the sun, and their raiment was shining so as the eye of man never saw the like: for no mouth is able to declare nor heart to conceive the glory wherewith they were clad and the beauty of their countenance. 8 Whom when we saw we were astonied, for their bodies were whiter than any snow and redder than any rose. 9 And the redness of them was mingled with the whiteness, and, in a word, I am not able to declare their beauty. 10 For their hair was curling and flourishing (flowery), and fell comely about their countenance and their shoulders like a garland woven of nard and various flowers, or like a rainbow in the air: such was their comeliness.

11 We, then, seeing the beauty of them were astonied at them, for they appeared suddenly. 12 And I drew near to the Lord and said: Who are these? 13 He saith to me: These are your (our) righteous brethren whose appearance ye did desire to see. 14 And I said unto him: And where are all the righteous? or of what sort is the world wherein they are, and possess this glory? 15 And the Lord showed me a very great region outside this world exceeding bright with light, and the air of that place illuminated with the beams of the sun, and the earth of itself flowering with blossoms that fade not, and full of spices and plants, fair-flowering and incorruptible, and bearing blessed fruit. 16 And so great was the blossom that the odour thereof was borne thence even unto us.

17 And the dwellers in that place were clad with the raiment of shining angels, and their raiment was like unto their land.

18 And angels ran round about them there. 19 And the glory of them that dwelt there was all equal, and with one voice they praised the Lord God, rejoicing in that place.

20 The Lord saith unto us: This is the place of your leaders (or, high priests), the righteous men.

21 And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment, and they that were punished and the angels that punished them had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. 22 And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming and tormenting them.

23 And there was a great lake full of flaming mire, wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels, tormentors, were set over them.

24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery.

And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place.

25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement.

26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion.

27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.

28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness.

29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses.

30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. [This is suggested by the LXX of two passages in Job: xli. 30, his bed is of sharp spits; viii. 17, on an heap of stones doth he rest, and shall live in the midst of gravel-stones.] And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God.

31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury.

32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman.

33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment....

34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God.

THE BODLEIAN LEAF

It measures but 2 3/4 by 2 inches and has 13 lines of 8 to 10 letters on each side (Madan's Summary Catalogue, No. 31810). The verso (second page) is difficult to read.

Recto=Gr. 33, 34: women holding chains and scourging themselves before those idols of deceit. And they shall unceasingly have this torment. And near

Verso: them shall be other men and women burning in the burning of them that were mad after idols. And these are they which forsook the way of God wholly (?) and . . .

THE ETHIOPIC TEXT

First published by the Abbe Sylvain Grebaut in Revue de l'Orient Chretien, 1910: a fresh translation from his Ethiopic text by H. Duensing appeared in Zeitschr. f. ntl. Wiss., 1913.

The Second Coming of Christ and Resurrection of the Dead (which Christ revealed unto Peter) who died because of their sins, for that they kept not the commandment of God their creator.

And he (Peter) pondered thereon, that he might perceive the mystery of the Son of God, the merciful and lover of mercy.

And when the Lord was seated upon the Mount of Olives, his disciples came unto him.

And we besought and entreated him severally and prayed him, saying unto him: Declare unto us what are the signs of thy coming and of the end of the world, that we may perceive and mark the time of thy coming and instruct them that come after us, unto whom we preach the word of thy gospel, and whom we set over (in) thy church, that they when they hear it may take heed to themselves and mark the time of thy coming.

And our Lord answered us, saying: Take heed that no man deceive you, and that ye be not doubters and serve other gods. Many shall come in my name, saying: I am the Christ. Believe them not, neither draw near unto them. For the coming of the Son of God shall not be plain (i.e. foreseen); but as the lightning that shineth from the east unto the west, so will I come upon the clouds of heaven with a great host in my majesty; with my cross going before my face will I come in my majesty, shining sevenfold more than the sun will I come in my majesty with all my saints, mine angels (mine holy angels). And my Father shall set a crown upon mine head, that I may judge the quick and the dead and recompense every man according to his works.

And ye, take ye the likeness thereof (learn a parable) from the fig-tree: so soon as the shoot thereof is come forth and the twigs grown, the end of the world shall come.

And I, Peter, answered and said unto him: Interpret unto me concerning the fig-tree, whereby we shall perceive it; for throughout all its days doth the fig-tree send forth shoots, and every year it bringeth forth its fruit for its master. What then meaneth the parable of the fig-tree? We know it not.

And the Master (Lord) answered and said unto me: Understandest thou not that the fig-tree is the house of Israel? Even as a man that planted a fig-tree in his garden, and it brought forth no fruit. And he sought the fruit thereof many years and when he found it not, he said to the keeper of his garden: Root up this fig-tree that it make not our ground to be unfruitful. And the gardener said unto God: (Suffer us) to rid it of weeds and dig the ground round about it and water it. If then it bear not fruit, we will straightway remove its roots out of the garden and plant another in place of it. Hast thou not undErstood that the fig-tree is the house of Israel? Verily I say unto thee, when the twigs thereof have sprouted forth in the last days, then shall feigned Christs come and awake expectation saying: I am the Christ, that am now come into the world. And when they (Israel) shall perceive the wickedness of their deeds they shall turn away after them and deny him [whom our fathers did praise], even the first Christ whom they crucified and therein sinned a great sin. But this deceiver is not the Christ. [something is wrong here: the sense required is that Israel perceives the wickedness of antichrist and does not follow him.] And when they reject him he shall slay with the sword, and there shall be many martyrs. Then shall the twigs of the fig-tree, that is, the house of Israel, shoot forth: many shall become martyrs at his hand. Enoch and Elias shall be sent to teach them that this is the deceiver which must come into the world and do signs and wonders to deceive. And therefore shall they that die by his hand be martyrs, and shall be reckoned among the good and righteous martyrs who have pleased God in their life. [Hermas, Vision III.i.9, speaks of 'those that have already been well-pleasing unto God and have suffered for the Name's sake'.]

And he showed me in his right hand the souls of all men, And on the palm of his right hand the image of that which shall be accomplished at the last day: and how the righteous and the sinners shall be separated, and how they do that are upright in heart, and how the evil-doers shall be rooted out unto all eternity. We beheld how the sinners wept (weep) in great affliction and sorrow, until all that saw it with their eyes wept, whether righteous or angels, and he himself also.

And I asked him and said unto him: Lord, suffer me to speak thy word concerning the sinners: It were better for them if they had not been created. And the Saviour answered and said unto me: Peter, wherefore speakest thou thus, that not to have been created were better for them? Thou resistest God. Thou wouldest not have more compassion than he for his image: for he hath created them and brought them forth out of not being. Now because thou hast seen the lamentation which shall come upon the sinners in the last days, therefore is thine heart troubled; but I will show thee their works, whereby they have sinned against the Most High.

Behold now what shall come upon them in the last days, when the day of God and the day of the decision of the judgement of God cometh. From the east unto the west shall all the children of men be gathered together before my Father that liveth for ever. And he shall command hell to open its bars of adamant and give up all that is therein.

And the wild beasts and the fowls shall he command to restore all the flesh that they have devoured, because he willeth that men should appear; for nothing perisheth before God, and nothing is impossible with him, because all things are his.

For all things come to pass on the day of decision, on the day of judgement, at the word of God: and as all things were done when he created the world and commanded all that is therein and it was done -even so shall it be in the last days; for all things are possible with God. And therefore saith he in the scripture: [Ezek. xxxvii.] Son of man, prophesy upon the several bones and say unto the bones: bone unto bone in joints, sinew. nerves, flesh and skin and hair thereon [and soul and spirit].

And soul and spirit shall the great Uriel give them at the commandment of God; for him hath God set over the rising again of the dead at the day of judgement.

Behold and consider the corns of wheat that are sown in the earth. As things dry and without soul do men sow them in the earth: and they live again and bear fruit, and the earth restoreth them as a pledge entrusted unto it.

[And this that dieth, that is sown as seed in the earth, and shall become alive and be restored unto life, is man. Probably a gloss.]

How much more shall God raise up on the day of decision them that believe in him and are chosen of him, for whose sake he made the world? And all things shall the earth restore on the day of decision, for it also shall be judged with them, and the heaven with it.

And this shall come at the day of judgement upon them that have fallen away from faith in God and that have committed sin: Floods (cataracts) of fire shall be let loose; and darkness and obscurity shall come up and clothe and veil the whole world and the waters shall be changed and turned into coals of fire and all that is in them shall burn, and the sea shall become fire. Under the heaven shall be a sharp fire that cannot be quenched and floweth to fulfil the judgement of wrath. And the stars shall fly in pieces by flames of fire, as if they had not been created and the powers (firmaments) of the heaven shall pass away for lack of water and shall be as though they had not been. And the lightnings of heaven shall be no more, and by their enchantment they shall affright the world (probably: The heaven shall turn to lightning and the lightnings thereof shall affright the world. The spirits also of the dead bodies shall be like unto them (the lightnings?) and shall become fire at the commandment of God.

And so soon as the whole creation dissolveth, the men that are in the east shall flee unto the west, unto the east; they that are in the south shall flee to the north, and they that are in the south. And in all places shall the wrath of a fearful fire overtake them and an unquenchable flame driving them shall bring them unto the judgement of wrath, unto the stream of unquenchable fire that floweth, flaming with fire, and when the waves thereof part themselves one from another, burning, there shall be a great gnashing of teeth among the children of men.

Then shall they all behold me coming upon an eternal cloud of brightness: and the angels of God that are with me shall sit (prob. And I shall sit) upon the throne of my glory at the right hand of my Heavenly Father; and he shall set a crown upon mine head. And when the nations behold it, they shall weep, every nation apart.

Then shall he command them to enter into the river of fire while the works of every one of them shall stand before them (something is wanting) to every man according to his deeds. As for the elect that have done good, they shall come unto me and not see death by the devouring fire. But the unrighteous the sinners, and the hypocrites shall stand in the depths of darkness that shall not pass away, and their chastisement is the fire, and angels bring forward their sins and prepare for them a place wherein they shall be punished for ever (every one according to his transgression).

Uriel (Urael) the angel of God shall bring forth the souls of those sinners (every one according to his transgression: perhaps this clause should end the preceding paragraph: so Grebaut takes it) who perished in the flood, and of all that dwelt in all idols, in every molten image, in every (object of) love, and in pictures, and of those that dwelt on all hills and in stones and by the wayside, whom men called gods: they shall burn them with them (the objects in which they dwelt, or their worshippers?) in everlasting fire; and after that all of them with their dwelling places are destroyed, they shall be punished eternally.

(Here begins the description of torments which we have, in another text, in the Akhmim fragment.)

Then shall men and women come unto the place prepared for them. By their tongues wherewith they have blasphemed the way of righteousness shall they be hanged up. There is spread under them unquenchable fire, that they escape it not.

Behold, another place: therein is a pit, great and full (of . . ) In it are they that have denied righteousness: and angels of punishment chastise them and there do they kindle upon them the fire of their torment.

And again behold [two: corrupt] women: they hang them up by their neck and by their hair; they shall cast them into the pit. These are they which plaited their hair, not for good (or, not to make them beautiful) but to turn them to fornication, that they might ensnare the souls of men unto perdition. And the men that lay with them in fornication shall be hung by their loins in that place of fire; and they shall say one to another: We knew not that we should come unto everlasting punishment.

And the murderers and them that have made common cause with them shall they cast into the fire, in a place full of venomous beasts, and they shall be tormented without rest, feeling their pains; and their worms shall be as many in number as a dark cloud. And the angel Ezrael shall bring forth the souls of them that have been slain, and they shall behold the torment of them that slew them, and say one to another: Righteousness and justice is the judgement of God. For we heard, but we believed not, that we should come into this place of eternal judgement.

And near by this flame shall be a pit, great and very deep, and into it floweth from above all manner of torment, foulness, and issue. And women are swallowed up therein up to their necks and tormented with great pain. These are they that have caused their children to be born untimely, and have corrupted the work of God that created them. Over against them shall be another place where sit their children [both] alive, and they cry unto God. And flashes (lightnings) go forth from those children and pierce the eyes of them that for fornication's sake have caused their destruction.

Other men and women shall stand above them, naked; and their children stand over against them in a place of delight, and sigh and cry unto God because of their parents, saying: These are they that have despised and cursed and transgressed thy commandments and delivered us unto death: they have cursed the angel that formed us, and have hanged us up, and withheld from us (or, begrudged us) the light which thou hast given unto all creatures. And the milk of their mothers flowing from their breasts shall congeal, and from it shall come beasts devouring flesh, which shall come forth and turn and torment them for ever with their husbands, because they forsook the commandments of God and slew their children. As for their children, they shall be delivered unto the angel Temlakos (i.e. a care-taking angel: see above, in the Fragments). And they that slew them shall be tormented eternally, for God willeth it so.

Ezrael the angel of wrath shall bring men and women, the half of their bodies burning, and cast them into a place of darkness, even the hell of men; and a spirit of wrath shall chastise them with all manner of torment, and a worm that sleepeth not shall devour their entrails: and these are the persecutors and betrayers of my righteous ones.

And beside them that are there, shall be other men and women, gnawing their tongues; and they shall torment them with red-hot iron and burn their eyes. These are they that slander and doubt of my righteousness. Other men and women whose works were done in deceitfulness shall have their lips cut off, and fire entereth into their mouth and their entrails. These are the false witnesses (al. these are they that caused the martyrs to die by their lying).

And beside them, in a place near at hand, upon the stone shall be a pillar of fire, and the pillar is sharper than swords. And there shall be men and women clad in rags and filthy garments, and they shall be cast thereon, to suffer the judgement of a torment that ceaseth not: these are they that trusted in their riches and despised the widows and the woman with fatherless children . . . before God.

And into another place hard by, full of filth, do they cast men and women up to the knees. These are they that lent money and took usury.

And other men and women cast themselves down from an high place and return again and run, and devils drive them. [These are the worshippers of idols] and they put them to the end of their witst (drive them up to the top of the height) and they cast themselves down. And thus do they continually, and are tormented for ever. These are they which have cut their flesh as [apostles] of a man: and the women that were with them . . . and these are the men that defiled themselves together as women. (This is very corrupt: but the sense is clear in the (Greek.)

And beside them (shall be a brazier ?) . . . and beneath them shall the angel Ezrael prepare a place of much fire: and all the idols of gold and silver, all idols, the work of men's hands, and the semblances of images of cats and lions, of creeping things and wild beasts, and the men and women that have prepared the images thereof, shall be in chains of fire and shall be chastised because of their error before the idols, and this is their judgement for ever. (In the Greek they beat each other with rods of fire: and this is better.)

And beside them shall be other men and women, burning in the fire of the judgement, and their torment is everlasting. These are they that have forsaken the commandment of God and followed the (persuasions ?) of devils.

(Parts of these two sections are in the Bodleian Fragment. this point the Akhmim fragment ends. The Ethiopic continues

And there shall be another place, very high (corrupt sentences follow. Duensing omits them: Grebaut renders doubtfully: There shall be a furnace and a brazier wherein shall burn fire. The fire that shall burn shall come from one end of the brazier). The men and women whose feet slip, shall go rolling down into a place where is fear. And again while the fire that is prepared floweth, they mount up and fall down again and continue to roll down. (This suggests a narrow bridge over a stream of fire which they keep trying to cross.) Thus shall they be tormented for ever. These are they that honoured not their father and mother and of their own accord withheld (withdrew) themselves from them. Therefore shall they be chastised eternally.

Furthermore the angel Ezrael shall bring children and maidens to show them those that are tormented. They shall be chastised with pains, with hanging up (?) and with a multitude of wounds which flesh-devouring birds shall inflict upon them. These are they that boast themselves (trust) in their sins, and obey not their parents and follow not the instruction of their fathers, and honour not them that are more aged than they.

Beside them shall be girls clad in darkness for a garment and they shall be sore chastised and their flesh shall be torn in pieces. These are they that kept not their virginity until they were given in marriage, and with these torments shall they be punished, and shall feel them.

And again, other men and women, gnawing their tongues without ceasing, and being tormented with everlasting fire. These are the servants (slaves) which were not obedient unto their masters; and this then is their judgement for ever.

And hard by this place of torment shall be men and women dumb and blind, whose raiment is white. They shall crowd one upon another, and fall upon coals of unquenchable fire. These are they that give alms and say: We are righteous before God: whereas they have not sought after righteousness.

Ezrael the angel of God shall bring them forth out of this fire and establish a judgement of decision. This then is their judgement. A river of fire shall flow and all judgement (they that are judged) shall be drawn down into the middle of the river. And Uriel shall set them there.

And there are wheels of fire and men and women hung thereon by the strength of the whirling thereof. And they that are in the pit shall burn: now these are the sorcerers and sorceresses. Those wheels shall be in a]l decision (judgement, punishment) by fire without number.

Thereafter shall the angels bring mine elect and righteous which are perfect in all uprightness, and bear them in their hands, and clothe them with the raiment of the life that is above. They shall see their desire on them that hated them, when he punisheth them, and the torment of every one shall be for ever according to his works.

And all they that are in torment shall say with one voice: have mercy upon us, for now know we the judgement of God, which he declared unto us aforetime, and we believed not. And the angel Tatirokos (Tartaruchus, keeper of hell: a word corresponding in formation to Temeluchus) shall come and chastise them with yet greater torment, and say unto them: Now do ye repent, when it is no longer the time for repentance, and nought of life remaineth. And they shall say: Righteous is the judgement of God, for we have heard and perceived that his judgement is good; for we are recompensed according to our deeds.

Then will I give unto mine elect and righteous the washing (baptism) and the salvation for which they have besought me, in the field of Akrosja (Acherousia, a lake in other writings, e.g. Apocalypse of Moses -where the soul of Adam is washed in it: see also Paul 22, 23) which is called Aneslasleja (Elysium). They shall adorn with flowers the portion of the righteous, and I shall go . . . I shall rejoice with them. I will cause the peoples to enter in to mine everlasting kingdom, and show them that eternal thing (life ?) whereon I have made them to set their hope, even I and my Father which is in heaven.

I have spoken this unto thee, Peter, and declared it unto thee. Go forth therefore and go unto the land (or city) of the west. (Duensing omits the next sentences as unintelligible; Grebaut and N. McLean render thus: and enter into the vineyard which I shall tell thee of, in order that by the sickness (sufferings) of the Son who is without sin the deeds of corruption may be sanctified. As for thee, thou art chosen according to the promise which I have given thee. Spread thou therefore my gospel throughout all the world in peace. Verily men shall rejoice: my words shall be the source of hope and of life, and suddenly shall the world be ravished.)

(We now have the section descriptive of paradise, which in the Akhmim text precedes that about hell.)

And my Lord Jesus Christ our King said unto me: Let us go unto the holy mountain. And his disciples went with him, praying. And behold there were two men there, and we could not look upon their faces, for a light came from them, shining more than the sun, and their rairment also was shining, and cannot be described, and nothing is sufficient to be compared unto them in this world. And the sweetness of them . . . that no mouth is able to utter the beauty of their appearance (or, the mouth hath not sweetness to express, &c.), for their aspect was astonishing and wonderful. And the other, great, I say (probably: and, in a word, I cannot describe it), shineth in his (sic) aspect above crystal. Like the flower of roses is the appearance of the colour of his aspect and of his body . . . his head (al. their head was a marvel). And upon his (their) shoulders (evidently something about their hair has dropped out) and on their foreheads was a crown of nard woven of fair flowers. As the rainbow in the water, [Probably: in the time of rain. From the LXX of Ezek.i.28.] so was their hair. And such was the comeliness of their countenance, adorned with all manner of ornament. And when we saw them on a sudden, we marvelled. And I drew near unto the Lord (God) Jesus Christ and said unto him: O my Lord, who are these? And he said unto me: They are Moses and Elias. And I said unto him: Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the rest of the righteous fathers? And he showed us a great garden, open, full of fair trees and blessed fruits, and of the odour of perfumes. The fragrance thereof was pleasant and came even unto us. And thereof (al. of that tree) . . . saw I much fruit. And my Lord and God Jesus Christ said unto me: Hast thou seen the companies of the fathers?

As is their rest, such also is the honour and the glory of them that are persecuted for my righteousness' sake. And I rejoiced and believed [and believed] and understood that which is written in the book of my Lord Jesus Christ. And I said unto him: O my Lord, wilt thou that I make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias? And he said unto me in wrath: Satan maketh war against thee, and hath veiled thine understanding; and the good things of this world prevail against thee. Thine eyes therefore must be opened and thine ears unstopped that a tabernacle, not made with men's hands, which my heavenly Father hath made for me and for the elect. And we beheld it and were full of gladness.

And behold, suddenly there came a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased: my commandments. And then came a great and exceeding white cloud over our heads and bare away our Lord and Moses and Elias. And I trembled and was afraid: and we looked up and the heaven opened and we beheld men in the flesh, and they came and greeted our Lord and Moses and Elias and went into another heaven. And the word of the scripture was fulfilled: This is the generation that seeketh him and seeketh the face of the God of Jacob. And great fear and commotion was there in heaven and the angels pressed one upon another that the word of the scripture might be fulfilled which saith: Open the gates, ye princes.

Thereafter was the heaven shut, that had been open.

And we prayed and went down from the mountain, glorifying God, which hath written the names of the righteous in heaven in the book of life.

There is a great deal more of the Ethiopic text, but it is very evidently of later date; the next words are:

'Peter opened his mouth and said to me: Hearken, my son Clement, God created all things for his glory,' and this proposition is dwelt upon. The glory of those who duly praise God is described in terms borrowed from the Apocalypse: 'The Son at his coming will raise the dead . . . and will make my righteous ones shine seven times more than the sun, and will make their crowns shine like crystal and like the rainbow in the time of rain (crowns) which are perfumed with nard and cannot be contemplated (adorned) with rubies, with the colour of emeralds shining brightly, with topazes, gems, and yellow pearls that shine like the stars of heaven, and like the rays of the sun, sparkling which cannot be gazed upon.' Again, of the angels: ' Their faces shine more than the sun; their crowns are as the rainbow in the time of rain. (They are perfumed) with nard. Their eyes shine like the morning star. The beauty of their appearance cannot be expressed.... Their raiment is not woven, but white as that of the fuller, according as I saw on the mountain where Moses and Elias were. Our Lord showed at the transfiguration the apparel of the last days, of the day of resurrection, unto Peter, James and John the sons of Zebedee, and a bright cloud overshadowed us, and we heard the voice of the Father saying unto us: This is my Son whom I love and in whom I am well pleased: hear him. And being afraid we forgat all the things of this life and of the flesh, and knew not what we said because of the greatness of the wonder of that day, and of the mountain whereon he showed us the second coming in the kingdom that passeth not away.'

Next: ' The Father hath committed all judgement unto the Son.' The destiny of sinners -their eternal doom- is more than Peter can endure: he appeals to Christ to have pity on them.

And my Lord answered me and said to me: 'Hast thou understood that which I said unto thee before? It is permitted unto thee to know that concerning which thou askest: but thou must not tell that which thou hearest unto the sinners lest they transgress the more, and sin.' Peter weeps many hours, and is at last consoled by an answer which, though exceedingly diffuse and vague does seem to promise ultimate pardon for all: 'My Father will give unto them all the life, the glory, and the kingdom that passeth not away,' . . . 'It is because of them that have believed in me that I am come. It is also because of them that have believed in me, that, at their word, I shall have pity on men.' The doctrine that sinners will be saved at last by the prayers of the righteous is, rather obscurely, enunciated in the Second Book of the Sibylline Oracles (a paraphrase, in this part, of the Apocalypse), and in the (Coptic) Apocalypse of Elias

wesley.nnu.edu...

Some canons against women, such ignoble men wrote these pieces of filth in the name of God:

The Didascalia Apostolorum
Collection of pseudo-apostolic church laws, North Syria; 3rd cent. AD
the original text of the Didascalia itself.
• Widows should not explain complicated doctrine to outsiders
• Women, especially widows, should not teach
• Widows should stay at home
• Suitable women should be ordained as deaconesses
• Deaconesses should instruct women converts
• Deacons (and deaconesses) are to care for people
• Deacons and deaconesses should work closely with the Bishop
• Rabbinical rules of ‘uncleanness’ should be abandoned by Christians
• The Holy Spirit remains with a woman during her monthly period
• Giving in to Rabbinical taboos and rules opens the way for the wrong spirit
• The normal fluids of sex and intercourse in marriage are clean
• Men should not reject women during their monthly periods
The Captions of the Arabic Canons Attributed to the Council of Nicea (325 AD)

Wijngaards.
• Deaconesses who convert from heresy
• The cohabitation of women with bishops, presbyters, and deacons prohibited on account of their celibacy.
• Of sponsors in baptism.
• Of being just towards one's first wife
• Equal justice for man and woman at divorce
• On nuns, widows and deaconesses
The Apostolic Constitutions
End of the fourth or the beginning of the fifth century
):
• Widows to be under sixty
• widows not to teach outside the assembly
• Women (=widows?) not to teach
• Widows to be obedient
• Women not to baptise
• Laymen not to exercise priestly functions
• Ministry reserved to bishop and priest
• Women to be humble about charity
Selected texts on deaconesses:
• Why deaconesses are ordained
• The deaconess's function at the baptism of women
• What a deaconess's character should be like
• The deaconess's place among God's people
• The deaconess to be honoured
• The deaconess assigns places to women in the assembly
• The deaconess receives strangers if they are women
Selected texts on women in general:
• A wife to be honoured
• Menstruation is holy and willed by the Creator.
• There is no evil in menstruation.
• During menstruation and pregnancy sex should be avoided.

www.womenpriests.org...

See, we are arguing because of jesus....
Jesus said that we are all his brothers and sisters, and he is the son of god so we are all sons and daughters of god....and that we ALL have the same powers, but people don't even try to be like him because they think jesus was the only one with those paranormal gifts. Nobody think thay can be like jesus because "they" told you, but you practice unconditional love for everybody and develop that! NOW, Jesus is gone, he's dead...what do we do? Understand what I'm saying?
We cannot hang on old stuff, we have to look at the futur! And times have changed! That is why we have to look for god in ourselves! God is in everyone of us! Nobody actually pratice what the bible says! Nobody pratice what Jesus said. He said that "money is not important" "love everybody like a bro or a sis"....is that what is happening right now after 2000 years? NO! It's the same as before Jesus. So what is the answer? beleive in yourself and if everybody could love themselves and the rest of the world, things could get better! Nobody understand that because the religion have too much power over you and wants you to beleive that jesus died for your sins so you can continu to do so and pray a guy that is dead and that anyway, nobody does what jesus wanted you to do...the chruch is very happy about that, they can continu to manipulate you!

I love you all and I send you unconditonal love because we are all part of the ONE true god that lives in each in everyone of us
Peace
Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx