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Is Jesus God, or is the whole trinity thing bunk?

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posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 10:15 AM
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Originally posted by RANT
The argument is moot anyway. All religions of the world are slowly unifying into this hodge-podged new age movement where Baptists, Moonies, Jews and Muslims will all eventually be the same thing.

It's the fundamentalist NWO. The Pax of the Beast.



Perhaps.

Or perhaps there really is one true God and one true religion all across the globe, that for centuries has been fractured into many different belief systems by the many different cultures of humanity.




posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by quango

Originally posted by RANT
The argument is moot anyway. All religions of the world are slowly unifying into this hodge-podged new age movement where Baptists, Moonies, Jews and Muslims will all eventually be the same thing.

It's the fundamentalist NWO. The Pax of the Beast.



Perhaps.

Or perhaps there really is one true God and one true religion all across the globe, that for centuries has been fractured into many different belief systems by the many different cultures of humanity.


Perhaps too.


But I don't plan to buy a time share in the newly erected Tower of Babel.



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 11:14 AM
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I am a Catholic Christian and am aware that there are other Christians with different beliefs about The Holy Trinity.

These are my beliefs from the Catholic point of view.

The New American Bible
Saint Joseph Edition

Luke 9: 20
Then He (Jesus) said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter said in reply, "The Messiah of God."

John 1: 1-5
In the beginning was the Word
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be.
What came to be through him was life,
and this life was the light of the human race;
and light shines in the darkness
and the darkness has not overcome it.

John 1: 10, 11
He was in the world,
and the world come to be through him,
but the world did not know him.
He came to what was his own,
but his own people did not accept him.

John 1: 14
And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,
and we saw his glory,
the glory as to the Father's only Son,
full of grace and truth.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
Page 74: 251, 252, 253, 254, and 255

"The dogma of the Holy Trinity
253: The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is,
i.e., by nature one God. In the words of the fourth Lateran Council (1215); "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."

See the following site for further information about the Holy Trinity and how, even though the word, Trinity, is not in scripture, there is plenty of information that the term "Trinity" is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Catholic Christian religion. The truth is that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three truly distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
www.newadvent.org...

Rant:
Catholic Christians do not worship Virgins and Saints.

We do honor the Virgin Mary because we believe she is the Mother of God.

We do honor named Saints. All in heaven are Saints. The Catholic Church has investigated some of the Saints and have named them because an investigation of their lives show they followed the teachings of Jesus as closely as a human could. They are models for us. We all probably know people who could pass these tests. We also use these personally known people as models, even if they are not named.



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
Hey Hailthekingoflights. I see where you are going with this, but then my question is what Jesus in relation to God during that time that Jesus was God in the flesh as well as man on earth? At first in your post you say that Jesus was God in the flesh, then later you say that God affirmed his son.
Leveller, what is the lesson that the trinity is meant to teach? I am not saying that the trinity cannot exist, and is some weird concept of Christianity, I am just asking how it relates to Christianity.
Finally, just to say that I am truely wondering how this works. I am not trying to descredit Christianity. It is a great thing that so far no one has said some comment about "those who close their hearts will never learn"
. It is just that my method of gauging a religion that claims to be "the one true religion" would be to examine its doctrines and see how they fit with logic, not to first say that those doctrines are correct, and THEN attempt to prove it. If the religion is the correct one, no matter how much questioning I put it to, should still be proven right


The only insight that the Lord gives us about his relation to the Father is that they are one. John chap 1 goes into more detail about this. We don't even fully understand the human brain or concious so how can we possibly try to fully understand the relationship of Elohim. The Earth( which is finite) still has many secrets that we don't know about. So that goes to show an infinite God cannot be fully understood with our mortal, finite minds.

Notice everytime that Jesus was talking to his disciple about the Father he said, "your Father in Heaven". Notice in Matt.7:11 Jesus say's Your Father who is in Heaven will give good things to them who ask him. Now why do you think he said your Father and not our Father? I believe the reason for this is because he has a relationship with the Father that we can't relate to, and if he said our Father he would be putting us on the same level as God, speaking blasphemous. They have a unique relationship, being that they're both God in essence and ability, but Father and Son Positionally and relationally.



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 08:07 PM
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If Jesus was God then every one who was near him or looked at him would have been burnt to a crisp, like in "Raiders of the lost Ark" movie. Moses asked to see God's glory and it was granted, but there was a warning, he could not look upon the creator's face or the person himself. He was told he would die if he did. The All powerfull being who was the source of power to start the sun in our solar system just can't set aside his dynamic energy and materialize into a flesh and blood human. The stars and planets would be attracted to his presence. Jesus was no materialized spirit creature, he was a pure DNA match for Adam. Remeber when three angels appeared before Abraham (Abram), one refered to himself as the Almighty YHWH. This also could not have been God himself because Abraham would have burned up too. This had to be a spokes person for God. There is however a special case with this angelic spokes person. Every word and thought was transmitted through the angel from God himself at his throne and vise versa back to Abraham. This being was a pure mediator in communication. Now if Jesus was God himself he would have been named YHWH, I am that I am, instead of Jesus, who is like God, but who is not the Almighty person himself.



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by Mahree
Rant:
Catholic Christians do not worship Virgins and Saints.

We do honor the Virgin Mary because we believe she is the Mother of God.

We do honor named Saints. All in heaven are Saints. The Catholic Church has investigated some of the Saints and have named them because an investigation of their lives show they followed the teachings of Jesus as closely as a human could. They are models for us. We all probably know people who could pass these tests. We also use these personally known people as models, even if they are not named.


I know they aren't supposed to be "worshipped" worshipped, but the frequent protestant charge is that they are.

I mean come on...


To further illuminate the divisions in Christianity, I've heard Protestant ministers go so far as say all Catholics are going to hell for being cannibals. I assure you, however, explaining the belief in eucharist transubstantiation to me is not necessary. I don't take sides in flawed arguments.

But it is my belief (as I was previously asserting) that the original intent of the glorification of Jesus's birth and virgin mother figure was another polytheist throwback marketing the new pacification movement to Romans.

Some Catholics (as demonstarted above) still revere Mary almost to the point as originally intended. Like a women visited by Zeus himself in the dark of night for the purposes of spawning a half God.

Again, my point is only that the origins of Christianity are in taking a monotheistic religion and merging it with both pagan and polytheistic overtones.

The "Trinity" (like the "Virgin" Mary) was marketing. Nothing more.

We still do it today. Christianity is sold now by a fat man in red suit with a decorated tree. Yet another "God" in the ever evolving polytheisitic religion of the western world.

[edit on 31-1-2005 by RANT]



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 08:42 PM
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Well, since the bible is just an allegory, technically it doesn't have to make sense if it were simply a story or a fable. Jesus is said to be the Son of God he is never said to be God. They are of the same system but bot the same beings. Jesus was created by being spoke. "And the word became flesh and dwelt among us". Jesus was a spoken idea that became manifest. It isn't Polytheist like Muslims say because Jesus isn't a god. The Holy spirit is simply the nature of God. It isn't a separate entity. But Remember that some parts of the story take on two roles. Not that it''s flawed



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 08:42 PM
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Well, since the bible is just an allegory, technically it doesn't have to make sense if it were simply a story or a fable. Jesus is said to be the Son of God he is never said to be God. They are of the same system but bot the same beings. Jesus was created by being spoke. "And the word became flesh and dwelt among us". Jesus was a spoken idea that became manifest. It isn't Polytheist like Muslims say because Jesus isn't a god. The Holy spirit is simply the nature of God. It isn't a separate entity. But Remember that some parts of the story take on two roles. Not that it''s flawed



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 09:01 PM
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there are numerous references in the bible to being one with the father (jesus) or of a group of people having one mind or heart..

Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

does that mean too that all these men are God? it rather means they have the same purpose. now reread john 10:30 (and further on when jesus states that it was he who also gave isreal the verses hes about to reference)

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Isa 41:23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye [are] gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold [it] together.

im still open for debate on the john 1 quote



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 09:54 PM
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Originally posted by Asia Minor
Well, since the bible is just an allegory, technically it doesn't have to make sense if it were simply a story or a fable. Jesus is said to be the Son of God he is never said to be God. They are of the same system but bot the same beings. Jesus was created by being spoke. "And the word became flesh and dwelt among us". Jesus was a spoken idea that became manifest. It isn't Polytheist like Muslims say because Jesus isn't a god. The Holy spirit is simply the nature of God. It isn't a separate entity. But Remember that some parts of the story take on two roles. Not that it''s flawed


I believe i Quoted Jesus from John in this very thread where Jesus says that he and the Father are one. He also constantly talks about how he came before Abraham, and has been there because as he would say, "I AM." Of course Jesus can be God, as he became the spirit of God in human flesh. If Jesus wasn't God, how was he around since the very beginning of time as he states. Was it that God and the Son of God just always were? That doesn't make sense as in order to be the Son you have to be born from the parent, yet he claims to be around since the beginning. I believe he alludes to it through out the gospel, to the point where he says you want to see the father, the father is in me, and i in the father. I believe that is in the part of John in which i have quoted here.



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 11:10 PM
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One thing is for certain, Jesus did not know anything about the Trinity, it was resolved at the Council of Nicea, and what transpired is amusing..

At the Council of Nicea in 325AD, not all agreed with the concept of the Trinity. A Libyan named Arius led a faction against the Roman Trinity, but when Arius rose to speak Nicholas of Myra punched him in the face (Roman Diplomacy)...

Bishop Eusebius records that the papers of Arius were " torn upon being read, and declared to be spurious and false"...

Arius and his followers were excommunicated for blasphemy for questioning the Trinity, his books were to be burnt and any person owning them be put to death. Later in 391AD the Emperor Theodoseus banned all forms of religion except that of the Roman Church, on pain of death, thus settling any further dispute.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 01:15 AM
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I believe that there is a trinity.
God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

John 10:24-30
Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Fathers name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand.
I and my Father are one.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things to your rememberance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

Just these few scripture plus others prove to ME that God the Father, Jesus,and the Holy Ghost are 3 seperate parts of God



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 01:58 AM
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Why do you pretend to seek anwers when the only answers you want are those that agree with your position?

The trinity was a philosophical context conceived at least 75 years after Jesus died, argued by the church fathers for centuries more, where the winners had the ear of Constantine and moved to silence all debate and writings from the detractors. 600 years later they finally managed to defeat by extreme force the imposition of this so called divine truth.

Is that how it works for you? Stifle others by force, destroy their works, and tell the masses they have God's wisdom?

I say again, the trinity is a farce. It never was truth and never will be. It is the creation of ignorant men.




[edit on 2/1/05 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 02:16 AM
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My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all


That tells me that God is above everybody else and is a separate entity.
That whole passage, at least IMO, only says that Jesus is doing things in God's name and with God's will and blessing, but it doesn't say that Jesus IS God.

Also the part about Holy Ghost, God sends the Holy Ghost to us, a separate entity, but it doesn't say that God IS Holy Ghost.





[edit on 1-2-2005 by paperclip]



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 04:02 AM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Why do you pretend to seek anwers when the only answers you want are those that agree with your position?

The trinity was a philosophical context conceived at least 75 years after Jesus died, argued by the church fathers for centuries more, where the winners had the ear of Constantine and moved to silence all debate and writings from the detractors. 600 years later they finally managed to defeat by extreme force the imposition of this so called divine truth.

Is that how it works for you? Stifle others by force, destroy their works, and tell the masses they have God's wisdom?

I say again, the trinity is a farce. It never was truth and never will be. It is the creation of ignorant men.




[edit on 2/1/05 by SomewhereinBetween]


Is this directed towards me? The reason i started this thread was because I myself am looking to find the truth out about this. I'm on the edge either way, leaning towards the trinity, but either way I am not sure.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 06:43 AM
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Originally posted by godservant
"Hi there, I am Satan. My goal is to deceive as many as I can. When God threw me out, I became angry. I want revenge. So, how can I successfully deceive those who wish to serve God? Easy! He says that he will be the only one worshipped, but I can't introduce a new god - people aren't that dumb. Oh, I know, what if I could get them to think that they are still worshipping God while worshipping someone else too? Hmmm, yeah. Maybe I can take the Christ that God sent, make others belive he is equal to God, then worship them both? Yeah, that will work. So what Christ prayed to God and so what if is sitting NEXT to God, I bet I can make people accept Christ AS God. Oh yeah, that will do nicely."

He is out deceiving. Thanks to man's ego, too many of us think we're to smart to be deceived. Too many forget the part - "Seek and you will find". Too many just stop, thinking that they have already found.


Matthew 9. Just a little background. Peter, James, John and Jesus went up to a high mountain (no, this isn't an opener for a joke) where Jesus met with Elijah and Moses and talked. Then, Matt 9:7 - Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!"

Next up, the old testament prophecies. Daniel and Isaiah fortold his coming as a light into the world, where he was to be from and how he was to be born, etc. I'm sure there were other prophets I'm leaving out, but those are the two who stand out in my mind right now.

People often want to divide the Old and the New Testament. There is the New Covenent, but the division between old and new is not some great chasm by any stretch of the imagination.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 08:32 AM
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I'm with you Ryanp5555, it's a tough thing to conceive since mankind has visibly seen Jesus as a separate 'person' and yet he states clearly he's a part of God. I'm fairly sure I'm not going to be able to resolve your question since there's a part of that question in me that asks, "How does it work?".

My best analogy is this: Picture God as the internet. Jesus the computer, and the Holy Spirit as electricity. In this case, God contains the vast knowledge and the ability to move globally. Jesus is the interface, will set up your connection and the Holy Spirit gives power. It works systemically when pictured as a whole, components in the same way we as people have appendages though our appendages are not who we are.

I'm sure there's some kind of spiritual diving in and out and perhaps mingling in the way light, color, fluids, gasses or such behave but associating ultimate intelligence to that gets tricky for us to conceptualize.

Hope this helps.

Pray, train, study.
God Bless.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 10:30 AM
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That is a very interesting analogy saint. But it helps show my point: Why should we limit ourselves to the "Jesus Computer"?
Apparently, Jesus is not the only son of God:

Jeremiah 31:9
They will come with weeping;they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel's father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son.


Exodus 4:22
Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son

Ok, a place cannot be a son. What about David:

2 Samuel 7:14
I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men.


1 Chronicles 22:10
He is the one who will build a house for my Name. He will be my son, and I will be his father. And I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.


Which son should be considered godlike? Heck, Jesus himself apparently said not to (even) call him GOOD:

Matthew 19:16-17
And behold, one came and said to him (Jesus), Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he (Jesus) said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? – No one is good but One that is, God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments



[edit on 1-2-2005 by babloyi]



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 10:43 AM
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Father = Creator

Son = Creator creates himself as a human in Mary to see whats up with us and understand why we sin and upon knowing the human experience can then forgive us our sins by then dieing on the cross. I personally believe it is possible that Christ experienced all of humanity including the sin. I believe this (Christ body) is the medium in which god used his power to know his creation (Humans). He then understood our sinfull nature and could then forgive us.

Holy Ghost = The essence, spirit and power of God that resides in everything and all things. "The Universe"


The above are the musings I had when I was a believer.

I should mention that I do not have faith in the bible any longer, but do believe that there is a creator and it is possible that some things in the bible reflect reality (Possibly Christ) and some time in the future I will know the truth.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by Xeven


I should mention that I do not have faith in the bible any longer, but do believe that there is a creator and it is possible that some things in the bible reflect reality (Possibly Christ) and some time in the future I will know the truth.


I too feel this way. I believe there is an all powerful energy force, or was, and I believe that the bible is a fantastic book of history, but that we do not get the real message because people take it literally, and because it has been added to and mistranslated and deleted from. I also think that many of the writings that are "mythology" is also history and have as much knowledge to obtain from them as the bible.......I know this really aggravates some here that I believe these things and am also a Wiccan....confuses me, but it seems to bother some.



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